Re: Neurotoxin summary, mmp9 and vitamin d--More details, please!

[Guest guest]

Thank you; this is helpful. However, I'm finding as I try to pursue

Shoemaker's protocol of testing and treatment, more details need to

be provided. Trying to educate doctors in a addition to trying to

get the details on how to go about all this is simply too much for

anyone (not to mention anyone impaired by chronic, mysterious

illnesses) to handle. You're lucky if you can find a doc who's

willing to explore this, but that's really only the beginning of the

fun.

This writer is correct in saying that most doctors don't use MMP9

testing. Apparently to get an MMP9 test you have to have Quest

Diagnostics send the blood sample to their lab in Baltimore, who is

familiar with Shoemaker and can do it. Not knowing this detail,

which I recently learned, has delayed my getting an MMP9 test for

months. " Mold Warriors " just suggests MMP9 and Quest Diagnostics;

it's not that simple. Also in the post below cytokines are

mentioned; what test measures cytokines and what hoops do you have to

jump through to get it done?

Also what dose of Actos is used to decrease the MMP9 and cytokines?

Below is a copy of Shoemaker's Lyme Protocol from 2002 which gives

helpful details. I don't know where I got this, or if it's correct,

or if he's still using this, but at least doses and timeframes are

provided.

Attached is the Shoemaker Protocol for Lyme:

" Lyme Antibiotic, Actos & Cholestyramine Treatment

Dr. Ritchie C. Shoemaker, 05-FEB-02

When Lyme or tick-borne disease is indicated in Dr. Shoemaker's

opinion, the following protocol is used. First, rule out other

biotoxin exposures, such as indoor air or outdoor fungal mycotoxins,

Ciguatoxins (seafood), Brevetoxins (marine red tides), Pfiesteria

toxins (estuaries), cyanobacteria toxins (fresh water), or Brown

Recluse or another poisonous spider bite, by taking a thorough

neurotoxic history. Symptoms from these toxic exposures can look like

Lyme but won't get better with antibiotics. Second, verify as well

as possible that the patient has had a tick bite or a good potential

for such. Question the patient about ticks and rashes, and obtain

laboratory tests for exposure to Borrelia, Ehrlichia, Babesia or

other potentially co-infecting organisms if possible, remembering

that those tests may have a high false-negative rate.

Doxycycline, 100 mg, 2 x day for 3 weeks [if allergic, Amoxicillin,

250 mg, 3 x day, 3 weeks; or Cefuroxime axetil (Ceftin), 250 mg, 2 x

day, 3 weeks]. Note : the doses used here are quite different than

what you may read elsewhere.

Then, Actos (pioglitazone; if not available take Avandia, 4 mg x

2/day) to upregulate peroxisome proliferator activated receptor gamma

(PPARg) which in turn downregulates production of pro-inflammatory

cytokines, such as tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFa), taken once

daily with or without food for 5 days prior to beginning

cholestyramine (CSM). See Actos instructions in treatment protocol

available on website: 1) Protocol for Prevention of Intensification

Reaction (Herxheimer-like reaction) by Actos in Chronic Lyme Patients

Beginning Cholestyramine; 2) Actos information sheet (soon available

on website).

Begin cholestyramine (CSM) on day 6 of Actos, and continue CSM for 3

weeks; continue Actos for 4 more days (total of 10 days Actos). See

CSM instructions in treatment protocol available on website: 1) What

to expect from cholestyramine; 2) Information on cholestyramine; 3)

cholestyramine protocol.

Physician evaluation after 3 weeks of CSM, Note: most patients are

seen frequently during the first several weeks of Actos/CSM protocol;

this MD review is the minimum. Don't skip getting a VCS test done!

It is your " compass " to find your way home.

If vision and symptom are improving as Lyme patients normally will,

continue CSM alone until symptoms abate or reach a plateau.

If no improvement or worse, consider alternative diagnoses or

complications of Lyme beyond neurotoxins alone. Discontinue CSM, and:

A. Get deep nasal (body, not vestibule) culture for Coagulase

Negative Staphylococcus (CNS), and blood tests for Leptin and alpha-

Melanocyte-Stimulating Hormone (MSH); the culture must be grown for

at least 5 days; don't let the lab say " normal flora " as CNS is still

regarded as " benign " by most infectious disease physicians. Make

sure the lab runs the Leptin and MSH assays properly - special blood

drawing tubes are necessary and aren't a " routine " test for most labs.

B. While waiting for Part A test results, consider:

- i.v. ceftriaxone (Rocephin), 2 gm, 1 x day (PICC line catheter), 28

days.

If i.v. Rocephin not available:

- Biaxin (clarithromycin), 500 mg, 2 x day, 4 weeks; or Roxithromycin

(foreign use) or other macrolide antibiotic.

After completing antibiotic regime, CSM per protocol for 3 weeks.

When test results are available, if culture for CNS (produces delta

toxin) is positive, leptin is high and MSH is low, begin:

- Rifampin, 2-300 tablets mg with food in morning, 4 weeks (it turns

saliva, tears and other secretions red - is not blood!), plus;

- sulfamethoxazole-trimethoprim (Bactrim DS - make sure you are not

allergic to sulfur), 1 tablet, 2 x day, 4 weeks, plus;

- Muciprocin (Bactroban cream), apply to swab at one end of Q-tip,

coat front and deep nostril thoroughly, repeat with other swab or

other end of Q-tip in the other nostril, 3 x day, 4 weeks.

- Take Actos per protocol if an intensification reaction occurs, and

it often will, making some patients think that their problem is still

Lyme. (We think that the cytokines made in response to the

neurotoxins of Lyme or the antibiotics used to treat Lyme may alter

the normal defenses of the mucus membranes of the nose, permitting a

slow-growing, opportunistic organism, resistant to nearly all

commonly used antibiotic, like CNS, possibly growing with an unusual

fungus, to take over a " niche " in the nose.)

[Treatment for CNS is evolving; we are conducting studies. You may

wish to sign up on the website for a phone consultation with Dr.

Shoemaker, particularly if you have the MSH problem (not uncommon)

which indicates a hypothalamic abnormality.]

After completing antibiotic regime, CSM per protocol for 3 weeks.

If still ill, and symptoms include sweats, shortness of breath and

cough, and unexplained hematuria, without red cells in urine, get

polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test for Babesia (tick-borne

protozoan). If positive, begin:

- Atovaquone (Mepron), 750 mg (1 teaspoon), with food, 2 x day, 6

weeks (2 bottles); continue CSM.

After completing antibiotic regime, CSM per protocol for 3 weeks. "

> > A poster on another list did a nice, succinct summary

> > of Shoemaker's neurotoxin testing/treatment at my

> > request and gave me permission to quote it here. I

> > thought the info would be helpful. I'm really geared,

> > as with the secondary porphyria, to look at herxing

> > from the perspective of what can be tested for and

> > either ruled out or treated. Like Tony, I appreciate

> > having some science and clinical assessment tools. If

> > we have some ways to sort out " herxing " from

> > inadequate abx (Tony's findings), secondary porphyria,

> > neurotoxin, poorly cleared endotoxin, cytokine storm,

> > etc, we might have more tools available to us than

> > low-dosing, etc.

> > Jim

> > From:

> > ME-CFS-FMS_infections

> > Hi Jim -

> > " Could you summarize the ways you are minimizing herx

> > via the methods in Mold Warriors? It would help a lot

> > of us to know. I've done activated charcoal and the

> > vitamin C flush for neurtoxins. Both help, but not as

> > significantly as you note. "

> > Will do what I can. Just bear with me. Still in a fog

> > here.

> >

> > The herx reaction involves MMP9 (that's

> > metalloproteinase-9). This is the enzyme that delivers

> > substances from the within the blood vessels to the

> > tissues. The blood vessels are not easily broached,

> > and in fact, that is their job - to hang on to your

> > blood so it can be pumped throughout the body. When

> > you are exposed to biotoxins, such as those produced

> > by certain forms of fungus or spirochetes, MMP9

> > skyrockets. One of the things MMP9 moves is cytokines

> > - the inflammatory factors that make you feel so sick,

> > and the very ones we lack the ability to regulate like

> > normal people do. These cytokines not only create the

> > plaque formation that looks like MS in the joints, but

> > they also get into the muscles where they produces the

> > delayed recovery from activity, and into the lungs,

> > where you get the coughing and shortness of breath.

> > (All the usual symptoms we know so damnably well!) In

> > Lyme, for example, when you take antibiotics, tumor

> > necrosis factor and MMP9 skyrocket and you're off to

> > the races.

> >

> > These elements, TNF and MMP9, can jump within hours,

> > which produces your basic crash. More MMP9 and TNF =

> > much more ability to carry more cytokines to parts of

> > the body where they can make you feel miserable.

> > Disturb the usual mechanism of the illness, as you do

> > when you attempt to treat it, and cytokine activity

> > goes into high gear.

> >

> > [Note: This is just a part of the underlying works,

> > but all I can give for the moment. I'm more than happy

> > to answer what questions I can, because it helps me

> > improve my own understanding. I want very much to

> > learn this material very thoroughly so I can

> > eventually teach the material in simplified form to

> > many more of my fellow brain-foggers. But meanwhile, I

> > really do recommend reading Shoemaker's books! I'm

> > just a student and patient, myself.]

> >

> > That said, I'll move on to a description of Actos

> > (pioglitazone), which is used to control the herx. I

> > was somewhat surprised to need it myself, but

> > Shoemaker typically uses this for Lyme, so is very

> > experienced with its use. This is a well-established

> > drug used for diabetes. It blocks cytokine nuclear

> > receptor activity and lowers elevated levels of

> > leptin, MMP9, and PAI-1. And as you might have

> > suspected, if you are taking a drug that controls

> > diabetes, there are some dietary controls you have to

> > be aware of, though I must say, I'm eating very well.

> > (Leptin is very closely associated with control of

> > insulin and therefore blood sugar levels.) The

> > tradeoff is more than worth it.

> >

> > There's a great deal more to the how and why of it

> > all, but this is the gist of it. You knock down the

> > cytokines and MMP9 to get the herx under control. Very

> > few physicians use MMP9 as a measure of anything at

> > all, so they aren't seeing any objective measure of

> > just how bad you feel. And you know how that goes.

> > With most of them, if they can't see it on a lab test,

> > it either doesn't exist or isn't that important. Here

> > we have both a set of objective tests (TNF and MMP9)

> > and a treatment that works.

> >

> > According to my understanding, anything you do to

> > disturb the toxins (any of the various " flushes " being

> > used) that actually have the intended ultimate effect

> > would make you sick via the additional cytokine

> > activity, while those that don't make you sick

> > probably aren't working sufficiently well to have the

> > desired effect. It's a catch-22, and a nasty one. You

> > HAVE to be able to flush more biotoxins than you take

> > on, or you not only do not become more well, you only

> > become more and more poisoned. (In theory, you could

> > probably herx mildly forever, yet never actually detox

> > sufficiently to make it count for anything - which is

> > a scenario we have already lived, and it isn't much of

> > a life, right?) So the only solution is to fix the

> > herx so that you can tolerate a medicine serious

> > enough to get the job done right.

> >

> > http://chronicneurotoxins.com

> > Dr. Shoemaker's site, contains full explanations

> > online VCS tests, and references to Shoemaker's

> > research and papers

> >

> > http://moldwarriors.com

> > Dr. Shoemaker's books " Desperation Medicine " and " Mold

> > Warriors " can be purchased here. These are suitable

> > for patients and physicians alike. Doc Shoe's quite a

> > storyteller.

> >

> > I hope this is of some help to you.

> > J.

[Guest guest]

3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if symptomatic

you have them?

Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does. Maybe

aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

You've heard the saying about when you assume things, right?

What is Comitras (natcell)? Again, more details would be helpful.

I sometimes think that there's a game enjoyed by well or relatively

well people: tossing out hints about a potentially helpful treatment

and watching sick people tear their hair out desperately trying to

figure out what it means and how to pursue it. Don't make us work so

hard to get a little information, please.

> 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

symptomatic

> you have them?

>

> Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does. Maybe

> aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Here's some Pub Med stuff suggesting that both Aloe Gel and Actos

{pioglitazone} can inhibit MMP9, and that doing so is helpful for

ameliorating endotoxic shock.

Well, maybe that's what they say. I wouldn't actually know. Think

I'll go find an Aloe Bush to nibble on, or maybe just pass out.

OK, with no further doo-doo, here's da abstracts:

********************************************************

Life Sci. 2003 Jan 3;72(7):843-50.

Inhibition of collagenase and metalloproteinases by aloins and aloe

gel.

Barrantes E, Guinea M.

Department of Pharmacology, School of Pharmacy, University of

Alcala, Ctra. Madrid-Barcelona Km 33.6, 28871 Alcala de Henares,

Spain.

The effects of Aloe barbadensis gel and aloe gel constituents on the

activity of microbial and human metalloproteinases have been

investigated.

Clostridium histolyticum collagenase (ChC) results dose-dependently

inhibited by aloe gel and the activity-guided fractionation led to

an active fraction enriched in phenolics and aloins.

Aloins have been shown to be able to bind and to inhibit ChC

reversibly and non-competitively.

Aloe gel and aloins are also effective inhibitors of stimulated

granulocyte matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs). The remarkable

structural resemblances between aloins and the pharmacophore

structure of inhibitory tetracyclines, suggest that the inhibitory

effects of aloins are via an interaction between the carbonyl group

at C(9) and an adjacent hydroxyl group of anthrone (C(1) or C(8)) at

the secondary binding site of enzyme, destabilizing the structure of

granulocyte MMPs.

PMID: 12479983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*******************************************

Biochem Pharmacol. 2005 Aug 15;70(4):535-44.

Targeting neutrophil collagenase/matrix metalloproteinase-8 and

gelatinase B/matrix metalloproteinase-9 with a peptidomimetic

inhibitor protects against endotoxin shock.

Hu J, Van den Steen PE, Dillen C, Opdenakker G.

Rega Institute for Medical Research, Laboratory of Immunobiology,

University of Leuven, Minderbroedersstraat 10, Leuven 3000, Belgium.

Gram-negative sepsis, bacterial meningitis and endotoxin shock are

life-threatening disorders, associated with the rapid release of

neutrophil enzymes. Neutrophil collagenase/matrix metalloproteinase-

8 (MMP-8) and gelatinase B/matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP-9) are

contained in granules, are quickly exocytosed upon granulocyte

activation and efficiently cleave intact and denatured collagens,

respectively.

Genetic ablation of gelatinase B protects against endotoxin-induced

mortality. Therefore, we designed and synthesized a peptidomimetic

gelatinase B inhibitor Regasepin1, and compared the selectivity for

the collagenases MMP-1, MMP-8 and MMP-13. Regasepin1 was found to

inhibit, almost to the same degree, the neutrophil enzymes MMP-8 and

MMP-9 and the monocytic tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha)

converting enzyme (TACE/ADAM-17) in vitro.

With the use of mass spectrometry analysis, the plasma half-life of

inhibitor levels was determined after an intraperitoneal bolus

injection in mice. Plasma peak levels of the inhibitor were reached

at 50min after intraperitoneal injection and the subsequent half-

life in the circulation exceeded 40min. Regasepin1 protected mice

against lethal endotoxinemia by intraperitoneal and intravenous

injection routes. This proofs the principle that early neutrophil

MMP inhibition followed by TACE blockade may become a treatment

strategy of gram-negative sepsis, endotoxinemia and other life-

threatening inflammatory reactions.

PMID: 15992779 [PubMed - in process]

*****************************************************

Shock. 1997 Jun;7(6):427-31. Related Articles, Links

A matrix metalloproteinase inhibitor prevents processing of tumor

necrosis factor alpha (TNF alpha) and abrogates endotoxin-induced

lethality.

Solorzano CC, Ksontini R, Pruitt JH, Auffenberg T, Tannahill C,

Galardy RE, Schultz GP, MacKay SL, Copeland EM 3rd, Moldawer LL.

Department of Surgery, University of Florida College of Medicine,

Gainesville 32610, USA.

Excessive tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF alpha) production in

response to Gram-negative bacteremia or endotoxemia can often lead

to hypotension, shock, and increased mortality. Current approaches

used to block the deleterious effects of exaggerated TNF alpha

production rely on monoclonal antibodies or immunoadhesins that bind

TNF alpha and thus prevent the interaction with its cellular

receptors.

This report examines whether a previously described inhibitor of

matrix metalloproteinases, GM-6001, can inhibit TNF alpha processing

and release and attenuate endotoxin-induced mortality. In human

peripheral blood mononuclear cells stimulated in vitro with 1

microgram/mL endotoxin, GM-6001 at concentrations > 5 micrograms/mL

blocked release of TNF alpha, but did not affect the release of

either IL-1 beta or IL-6. GM-6001 also inhibited the release of

soluble TNF receptor (p75) from peripheral blood mononuclear cells

stimulated with endotoxin and/or TNF alpha.

To confirm the role of secreted TNF alpha in endotoxic shock-induced

mortality, C57BL/6 mice were challenged with either endotoxin alone

(500 micrograms/mouse) or endotoxin (100 ng/mouse) plus D-

galactosamine (8 mg/mouse). GM-6001 pretreatment (100 mg/kg)

significantly attenuated the 90-minute plasma TNF alpha response in

both models and improved survival in mice treated with low-dose

endotoxin plus D-galactosamine.

However, plasma IL-1 beta and IL-6 concentrations at 90 min after

endotoxin treatment were unaffected by GM-6001 following lethal

endotoxin challenge, confirming the in vivo specificity of this

matrix metalloproteinase inhibitor for TNF alpha processing. These

findings demonstrate that a novel inhibitor of matrix

metalloproteinases can prevent the release of TNF alpha both in

vitro and in vivo, and can abrogate the harmful sequelae of

endotoxemic shock.

PMID: 9185243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

************************************************

> > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> symptomatic

> > you have them?

> >

> > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

Maybe

> > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

HI Shaker, there is something called google, if you get curious

rather than accuse me of being a well person tossing out hints in

order to watch a sick person tear their hair out go google it.

that is so fricken insulting to me i will not say more.

> > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> symptomatic

> > you have them?

> >

> > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

Maybe

> > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Thanx for posting this. Yesterday I decided to go buy aloe leaves and

consume lots of gel. I also decided to buy an aloe plant if I can

find one so I don't have to constnatly buy the leaves.

I was going to do this today.

A lot of times I just go by this intuitive prompting. I sort of asked

my body, what would the aloe do and I could feel it (its also

antibacterial and antifungal) and then I asked, what would an h202 IV

do (I'm trying to figure out how to handle my fungal issues which I

think are as bad as my lyme issues) and it sort of gave me the image

back of " FIRE! " LIke it was going to be really powerful, so I'm going

to ask for a very small amount the first time I try it.

> > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > symptomatic

> > > you have them?

> > >

> > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> Maybe

> > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

P.S. I think curcumin might do this too.

MMP's are one way BB gets around, elevate them, lots of leaky

inflamed membranes to pass through and penetrate.

> > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > symptomatic

> > > you have them?

> > >

> > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> Maybe

> > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Jeeze Jill,

before you rip this guy a new one, try typing in " comitras " and " natcell " into

your

google window and see what you get...

NOTHING.

Perhaps then you can see why they said what they did...

> > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > symptomatic

> > > you have them?

> > >

> > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> Maybe

> > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Geez back, you don't think he ripped into me by suggesting that I am

relatively well and just taunting him. Go back and look at his

completely insulting post. All he needed to do was ask me for more

information. People on these lists get all up in arms and will attack

someone for no reason at all.I don't brook such attacks, sorry.

> > > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > > symptomatic

> > > > you have them?

> > > >

> > > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> > Maybe

> > > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

I should add in that just because I don't detail my entire case

history and current issues online does not mean I am 'relatively

well', maybe I am going thru hell for all anybody knows.

I support myself.

I am actively engaging researchers and doing a ton of research so I

can figure out how to cure this thing as hubristic and delusionally

grandiose as that may sound.

That takes a lot of time.

Someone got on my case on lymestrategies for posting " bleeding--that

is scary " when someone got severe bleeding from salt/c, who has pcos.

now even a few grams of salt cause bleeding. As if I was trying to

scare everybody in some global way with my response, which was simply

my response at the time that it must be scary, and I surely would

have been scared.

I have a lot to do, I support myself, I am still struggling, I always

try to answer questions people send by email, almost immediately and

don't always get the same back, and I really really resent it when

people make the assumption that every post has great meaning, or I " m

thinking out every post, etc. All anybody needs to do is ask me to

clarify and if I can I will.

DO NOT INSULT ME. Do not act like I'm here to always think out

everything and give all my knowledge and go look up stuff. I am in

the same boat as everybody else. Even who is wonderful made some

assumptions about me a while ago and I corrected him.

Be polite with me and I will be polite with you. Be rude to me and

I'll be rude back.

And if I'm *not* delusional and I pull off what I dream of then you

will have to be VERY POLITE.

Thanx.

> > > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > > symptomatic

> > > > you have them?

> > > >

> > > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> > Maybe

> > > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Jill, I apologize, I meant no offense. What's google? No,

seriously, I did try to search with google and came up with nothing.

If you have a website that explains or sells Comitras (natcell) I

would appreciate you sharing it. I'm always willing to try something

that might help. I would probably eat sheet metal if a chiropractor

told me it would benefit me.

My exasperation (mostly over trying to figure out the details of the

Shoemaker protocol) was not directed at you, and I probably should

have put it in a separate post. Or, I should have deleted the post

altogether. I was trying to be funny. I try to amuse myself with

black humor instead of going into suicidal depression. But if it

hurts somebody else, that of course isn't right.

The idea of some healthy people conspiratorially posting on a chronic

illness forum and getting a kick out of throwing out vague and short-

handed health hints ( " ya just gotta dump the neurotoxins with the

CSM... " or " take the NADH, check your pH, and then chelate the Hg

with the DMSA... " ) still kind of amuses me, but maybe my sense of

humor sucks.

I encourage you to not to waste a drop of energy taking anything I

say personally or seriously; I'm just a nutcase on the internet

trying to get well.

> > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > symptomatic

> > > you have them?

> > >

> > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> Maybe

> > > aloe vera too.

[Guest guest]

Apologies accepted.

ly I am going through a scary time myself since using a so-

called rife device for 4 hours over 10 weeks ago, I could hardly walk

the next day and have had problems walking since. My muscles are

weak, stiff and go into spasms. I was doing fairly well before that--

considering I flew to Atlanta to see the guy who makes this device,

and didn't think twice about it. So I don't complain publicly about

this stuff but apparently I really did something bad to myself with

this experiment, and he was no help, being grandiose and sociopathic.

In fact I am reporting him to the state licensing board as I am not

the only one who apparently had this problem.

Anyway, I'm not taking comitras myself. It's Atrium Biotech, or

Natcell. They are a French company. YOur doctor has to order it, I don

['t believe you are allowed to order it directly and its about $350 I

think? (For a month's supply). It is supposedly helpful tho. I spoke

with one LLMD who uses it and really likes it. You might try starting

with aloe and curcumin and pycnogenol as I imagine they all

downregulate MMP's..and I'll post more on here when I hear more about

it (I'm going to interview that LLMD when I get some time)

> > > > 3/4 of lymie have elevated MMPs so why don't you assume if

> > > symptomatic

> > > > you have them?

> > > >

> > > > Comitras (natcell) downregulates them but is expensive.

> > > > I think curcumin might too, and I wonder if pycnogenol does.

> > Maybe

> > > > aloe vera too.