woodland safety

[Guest guest]

Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make sure to

wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the vet's

and climb in the flea dip.

Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont quote

me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard ticks

do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks, sort

of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated ground.

But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may be

less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in the

water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by dandelions

and violets growing in their lawns.

I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck with

any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on eurolyme

saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow were

experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was it

the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was a

verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these birds

are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-ruled

city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

those things, be careful down there.

[Guest guest]

Here in the Bay Area of Cali, there's a delightful study that showed

there was NO SAFE PLACE to sit, the damn pacificus ticks hang out in

piles of leaves, under logs, just about everywhere a person might

like to stop for rest. So you've got the buggers dropping, you got

em popping up from below. I guess wearing a t-shirt that says " I

Bite Back! " won't deter the little vermin, either.

The repellents are, among other things, repellent, DEET makes me

helluh ill, don't know how I'll get around this, because the woods

and I are like an old married couple, we can't really be separated.

The nymphs (what an odd name for something that can do THIS to you)

are nearly impossible to see. The whole point of being in the woods

is tranquility, communion. How those facts can be made to coexist in

my psyche I do not know, but I hope to heck I figure it out by the

time I'm well enough to hike again. There are particular trees, for

pete's sake, that I love enough to pine for *groans* when we're

separated.

, do you know any enlightening studies on re-infection of fully

or largely recovered borreliosis patients by fresh tick bites? I'm

wondering if Jill is 100% correct that repeated exposures never

confer immunity. I know these spirochetes are masters at having

their way with the IS, but is the literature unanimous that no one

EVER develops an effective, proactive immune response who's health

has been trashed by these bugs?

Add that to NEVER having a vaccine, and you have a recipe for NEVER

going near the woods again, which if I had lost a limb to this

disease would still not be easy to accept.

What would happen if you took an abx combo prophylactically for

weeks before and after a hiking binge? I could do that a lot easier

than never hiking at all. Especially if the abx didn't have to be

oral. I want a walk-in freezer full of bicillin injections, dammit!

I've done some reading lately that makes me think we'd be really

well-served by scouring the reports of entymologists (sp?), the guys

who study bugs. I saw one of them on video testifying before our

state assembly, will have to try and find his name and see if he'll

reply to an email.

In that Bay Area study, get this: more than two thirds of the

population test positive for pacificus tick saliva (apparently MUCH

easier to test for definitively than borrelial infection), including

EVERY study subject who reported ever having a tick-borne infection.

Now, most of those folks are not sick. I just want to be sure, do we

absolutely KNOW that the kind of functional immune response they're

having will never be available to us?

Cuz cut me off from the forest, my stress level will rise, my immune

system will suffer, and one of those damn ticks will get to me

anyway and I'll have a life that is BOTH reinfected and deforested.

LOL, it's a day for bad puns, I'm so far from being 'out of the

woods' with this disease that my worries about getting back INTO the

woods are decidely premature, but I would like to know as much as

possible about this question of reinfection and the prospects for a

functional, acquired immunity.

Maybe I'll go completely mad, blame it on the disease, and

deliberately get fresh tick bites while powering down antibiotics,

to see if I can't find some way to innoculate myself. Something in

me (quite possibly wishful thinking) says there has to be a way.

> Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make sure

to

> wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the vet's

> and climb in the flea dip.

>

> Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont

quote

> me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard

ticks

> do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks,

sort

> of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

> still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated

ground.

> But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may

be

> less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in

the

> water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by dandelions

> and violets growing in their lawns.

>

> I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck

with

> any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on

eurolyme

> saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow

were

> experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was

it

> the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was

a

> verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these birds

> are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-

ruled

> city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

>

> There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

> developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

> observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

> Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

> geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

> happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

> those things, be careful down there.

[Guest guest]

LOL, I had this labor job in the woods in MN one summer, youd kick a

bush in the morning and see 200 mosquitos fly out of it, I sprayed

DEET all over my skin 8 times a day. Eeyyach, NOT sure thats very

good for you.

Man , when they immunized rabbits against Tp it took dozens of

injections and I think the protection lasted like a year. So I am

afraid I hold out little hope of acquiring immunity to Bb, tho I

havent been all over the lit on this one. Cullen et al report that

LYMERix was ~75% effective.

That info about I. pacificus is certainly discouraging.

> > Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make

sure

> to

> > wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the

vet's

> > and climb in the flea dip.

> >

> > Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont

> quote

> > me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard

> ticks

> > do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks,

> sort

> > of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

> > still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated

> ground.

> > But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may

> be

> > less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in

> the

> > water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by

dandelions

> > and violets growing in their lawns.

> >

> > I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck

> with

> > any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on

> eurolyme

> > saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow

> were

> > experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was

> it

> > the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was

> a

> > verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these

birds

> > are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-

> ruled

> > city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

> >

> > There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

> > developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

> > observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

> > Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

> > geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

> > happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

> > those things, be careful down there.

[Guest guest]

I beleive deer ticks come up from the ground and low brush.

But they can move fast.

I still ride my horses on woods trails, and I walk and brush it.

I just make sure there are no ticks on me when I get

back.. a shower is a sure way the find them- even the nymphs if

you're care full.

I found one on me 2 years ago in November.

An attached adult - but I know it was on me <12 hrs. I had it tested

anyway (and it was negative for Bb).

I'm not giving up my life style for those little sons of B.

Barb

> Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make sure

to

> wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the vet's

> and climb in the flea dip.

>

> Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont

quote

> me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard ticks

> do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks, sort

> of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

> still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated

ground.

> But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may

be

> less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in

the

> water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by dandelions

> and violets growing in their lawns.

>

> I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck with

> any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on eurolyme

> saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow were

> experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was

it

> the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was a

> verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these birds

> are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-ruled

> city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

>

> There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

> developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

> observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

> Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

> geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

> happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

> those things, be careful down there.

[Guest guest]

LOL what a funny witty post. And you do not know but I have a thing

for those hydrothermal vents. I met the girlfriend of a

friend/colleague of mine some weeks ago and she was formerly a

scientist who got to go down and SEE THE VENTS! I went to see the

Imax movie Aliens of the Deep which was 3D the vents were so

beautiful.

I think they DO drop on you. So, no safety there.

I think mostly its tick vectors, tho occasionally other insects can

transmit, just probably not too effective as vectors.

I did lay in the woods in central park with my friend in May, happily

so. I suppose there could be a tick or two there but the likelihood

is low. I also sit on the grass in the city parks. I also think

hiking the trails in northern new mexico is probably okay, for the

time being anyway.

> Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make sure

to

> wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the vet's

> and climb in the flea dip.

>

> Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont

quote

> me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard ticks

> do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks, sort

> of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

> still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated

ground.

> But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may

be

> less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in

the

> water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by dandelions

> and violets growing in their lawns.

>

> I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck with

> any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on eurolyme

> saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow were

> experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was

it

> the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was a

> verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these birds

> are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-ruled

> city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

>

> There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

> developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

> observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

> Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

> geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

> happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

> those things, be careful down there.

[Guest guest]

, its not so much about a functional immune response,,,, imo.

Its partly genetics (inflammatory response depending on your genes)

and partly genetics again (immune defects initiated by borrelia in

some cases) and then its their shifting antigens.

I think you COULD make something to kill them.

" Immunity " to me means, you get along fine with the bug. Given your

immunity and genetics, you get it, but it doesn't do you in. Small #'s

persist, but you live with it.

But then again, sometimes that happens to people and its the 3rd 4th

or 5th bite that does them in. Imgaine, a bunch of strains of varying

virulence, one maybe particularly nasty, ALL shifting their antigens

all the time. VERY tough for the immune system.

[Guest guest]

I think they have to be able to drop on you. My mom tells me a story

I am sooooo glad that I don't remember. How I don't remember I'll

NEVER know, probably one of those memory supression things. I had

been out riding motorscyles with my mom and dad on dirt trails in

the Sierra Nevadas, CA, where I lived. When we returned home, my mom

found no less then 15 ticks in my hair, the BIG ones, no where else

just on my head.

Even though I don't remember the event, I have no doubt that I was

NOT rubbing my head on the dirt or in the low brush. Nor had I been

wading in neck deep water so the ticks would have to climb higher to

survive. I had to have sat down somewhere, likely in the shade of

some tree or bush and they just dropped right down into my hair.

Blaah!Blaah!Blaah!............Blaah! Yuck! Rubber wet suit is the

way to go, with hood and googles if you must go into the the woods.

I see my first LLMD tomorrow at 3:00, he said it could take up to 4

hours!

> Going hikings no big deal Jill, you crazy alarmist, just make sure

to

> wear a rubber diving suit and afterward head straight to the vet's

> and climb in the flea dip.

>

> Yeah, I HATE not being able to hit the woods. I've heard (dont

quote

> me) that deer ticks dont " drop " on you... anyone know if hard

ticks

> do? My favorite thing used to be walking down woodland brooks,

sort

> of like fly fishing without the fishing, and I think I'd like to

> still do that if I can enter the local river via unvegetated

ground.

> But I am worried about ticks dropping from overhead... also I may

be

> less able than others to cope with whatever toxins people put in

the

> water as they combat the horrendous suffering caused by dandelions

> and violets growing in their lawns.

>

> I did climb an urban-ish tree the other day, figuring the heck

with

> any bird-borne ticks. But lately Gill had some 'stracts on

eurolyme

> saying that the American Robin, Grey Catbird, and Song Sparrow

were

> experimentally competant Bb reservoirs, and the Am. Robin (or was

it

> the european Blackbird, which is in the same genus, *Turdus*) was

a

> verified natural reservior at a decent prevelance. All these birds

> are ubiquitous in the US anywhere but the pigeon-and-starling-

ruled

> city downtown; they can basically dig it in few bushes.

>

> There was also a believable case report of erythema migrans

> developing, I think with flu syndrome also, at the site of a well-

> observed *horsefly* bite. Connecticut. Guy successfully treated.

> Anyway, lizards, birds, next place theyll find Bb is in those

> geothermal vent tubeworms at the bottom of the ocean, so if you

> happen to get in one of those super-pressurized subs to go study

> those things, be careful down there.