Re: info on sinus bacteria

July 21, 2005

Jim

Ive done 100 plus sinus swabs and the tracks are caused IMO by coag

neg staphylococcus that is highly resistant. It also gets assistnace

from pseudonomads and even streptococci can lend a hand, the chlamydia

is an angel organism when it comes to bone damaging bacteria.

Personally I see enough TOXIN expression to bring down an elephant,

let alone mess up facial bone.

> I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus area and

> later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the outside of

the

> cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with very clear

> tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

chlamydia

> bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head, also at

> the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of these

> tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or comments, I

need

> to hear your thoughts. Jimd

July 21, 2005

Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down regulates the immune system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in transplant patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is incidental .The hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …When infected mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a normal common or garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust Immune response ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the lack of colour , our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal infections. JW.Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@...Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause progressive disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence factor is the fungal pathogen’s ability to evade or down-regulate host protective mechanisms.

PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus infections maybe caused by an immune system response to fungi. * Article in Mayo <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>Clinic ProceedingsMany studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our thinkingthat chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to fungi in thenose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to fungi in thenose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in September 1999,has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe (ENTUniversity Hospital in Graz, Austria).There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to furtherinvestigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the respiratorytract.In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood cells

called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were producing the kind of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people did

not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001 Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

will be published soon.The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of Health (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further investigate the

mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation that persistsfor three months or longer—we recommend that you see your personalphysician or an ear, nose and throat specialist (otorhinolaryngologist) forthe appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the disease isassociated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those associatedproblems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.Antibiotics don’t help chronic sinusitis in the long run because they targetbacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids are themainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the patient.Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes and mistsprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic sinusitis, but do noteliminate the inflammation.Dept of OtorhinolaryngologyMayo ClinicRochester, Minnesota

This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

Stop press information http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal drugs to treat sinusitis.

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of jimd85379Sent: 21 July 2005 18:10infections Subject: [infections] info on sinus bacteriaI need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus area andlater can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the outside of thecheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with very cleartracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that chlamydiabacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head, also atthe base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of thesetracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or comments, I needto hear your thoughts. Jimd

July 21, 2005

Hiya J,

I think the text and links you provide make a pretty strong case. I

will be following with interest the lines of research described in

the last link.

One thing I noticed from the mayo paper is a lack of specificity

regarding fungal pathogens - no mention was made of what,

specifically, they're finding. Would welcome news related to that.

Also looking forward to hearing more about the mechanisms that might

link these chronic sinus inflammation cases of fungal origin to

chronic pain in other parts of the body. Have seen some hints and

clues. Particular a piece you or someone posted about toxins

escaping the gut.

The role of fungal mechanisms in immune suppression needs more

elucidation, and I hope that too will be forthcoming.

It seems to me that every patient with both unexplained chronic

illness and sinusitis deserves to have both fungal and bacterial

origins explored and both types of antimicrobial treatment provided

on an empirical basis.

In other words, I think the swabs Tony's doing should be standard

practice, because in some cases nailing the right bacterial pathogen

and targeting it with the right abx may be the key that unlocks

recovery, in others (if Mayo is right, a majority) antifungal

treatment may restore immune function and allow the IS to kick the

bacteria's butt independently.

Certainly for patients who have been sick a long time, have chronic

sinusitis, and no other dx that makes any treatable sense out of

their symptoms, an either/or approach seems unduly restrictive.

These folks deserve a focused, determined effort to resolve the

sinus inflammation. The combination of intelligent immune support

that can be managed independently of doctors and allopathic efforts

to resolve the sinus conditions might bring recovery to a

substantial number of patients who are desperate for it.

I hope you'll never get discouraged if not everyone is receptive and

will continue to post everything you can to enlighten us about the

role fungal pathogens play in immune-suppression and chronic illness.

Cheers,

S.

> Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down regulates

the immune

> system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

transplant

> patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

incidental .The

> hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …When

infected

> mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a normal

common or

> garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust Immune

response

> ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the lack of

colour ,

> our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

>

> Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

infections.

>

> JW.

>

> Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Oklahoma

Health

> Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

>

> Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

progressive

> disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence factor

is the

> fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host protective

> mechanisms.

>

> PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

>

> See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

>

> Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus

infections may

> be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

>

> * Article in Mayo

<http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> Clinic Proceedings

>

> Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our

thinking

> that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to

fungi in the

> nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to fungi

in the

> nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

September 1999,

> has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe (ENT

> University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

>

> There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to further

> investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the

respiratory

> tract.

> In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

Laboratory at

> the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood cells

>

> called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were producing

the kind

> of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people did

>

> not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001 Annual

Meeting of

> the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

>

> will be published soon.

>

> The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of

Health

> (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

investigate the

>

> mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

>

> If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation that

persists

> for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your personal

> physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

(otorhinolaryngologist) for

> the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the disease

is

> associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

associated

> problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

>

> Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run because

they target

> bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.

> Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids are the

> mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the

patient.

>

> Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes

and mist

> sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic sinusitis,

but do not

> eliminate the inflammation.

>

> Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> Mayo Clinic

> Rochester, Minnesota

>

> This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

>

> d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

>

> Stop press information

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

>

> See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal drugs

to treat

> sinusitis.

>

> [infections] info on sinus bacteria

>

> I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

area and

> later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the outside

of the

> cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with very

clear

> tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

chlamydia

> bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head, also

at

> the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of these

> tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or comments,

I need

> to hear your thoughts. Jimd

>

July 21, 2005

Hi Tony,

Three questions, one vague and two pretty specific:

1) What can you tell us about the toxins you're seeing and how they

are similar to and/or different from the LPS we associate with gram

neg bacteria?

2) What sort of brief can you give us that might help patients get

past the formidable resistance to culturing we encounter at every

turn, from both GPs and specialists?

3) Are there specific antibiotics, at specific MICs or MBCs, that in

your experience tend to retain efficacy against all three of the

bugs you emphasize (staph, strep, and pseudomonas)? How would you

advise someone who can't get cultures done to proceed with empiric

treatment?

I know you've addressed each of these things in former posts, hope

you won't be frustrated by a request to do so again. The occasion

being given by the study J. points us to, finding persistent

sinusitis 9x more common in CFS patients than controls. That study

just observes the phenomenon, is neutral respecting the pathogens

responsible.

I guess I'm hoping that both you and J. can use that occasion

to give us a clearer, more complete picture of how you see the

pathogenesis unfolding in your respective models. That seems more

useful to me than debating about which is more prevalent or

important.

Cheers,

> > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

area and

> > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the outside

of

> the

> > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with very

clear

> > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

> chlamydia

> > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head, also

at

> > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of these

> > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or comments,

I

> need

> > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

July 21, 2005

Those references look very interesting, thanks much!

Hey, is anyone else finding Pub Med unresponsive today?

S.

> > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down regulates

> the immune

> > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

> transplant

> > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> incidental .The

> > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …

When

> infected

> > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

normal

> common or

> > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust

Immune

> response

> > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

lack of

> colour ,

> > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> >

> > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> infections.

> >

> > JW.

> >

> > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

Oklahoma

> Health

> > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> >

> > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> progressive

> > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

factor

> is the

> > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

protective

> > mechanisms.

> >

> > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> >

> > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> >

> > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus

> infections may

> > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> >

> > * Article in Mayo

> <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > Clinic Proceedings

> >

> > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our

> thinking

> > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to

> fungi in the

> > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

fungi

> in the

> > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> September 1999,

> > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe

(ENT

> > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> >

> > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

further

> > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the

> respiratory

> > tract.

> > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

> Laboratory at

> > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood

cells

> >

> > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

producing

> the kind

> > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people

did

> >

> > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

Annual

> Meeting of

> > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> >

> > will be published soon.

> >

> > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of

> Health

> > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> investigate the

> >

> > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> >

> > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation

that

> persists

> > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

personal

> > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

disease

> is

> > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> associated

> > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> >

> > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

because

> they target

> > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.

> > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids

are the

> > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the

> patient.

> >

> > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes

> and mist

> > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

sinusitis,

> but do not

> > eliminate the inflammation.

> >

> > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > Mayo Clinic

> > Rochester, Minnesota

> >

> > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> >

> > d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> >

> > Stop press information

> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> >

> > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal

drugs

> to treat

> > sinusitis.

> >

> > [infections] info on sinus bacteria

> >

> > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

> area and

> > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

outside

> of the

> > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with

very

> clear

> > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

> chlamydia

> > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head,

also

> at

> > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of

these

> > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

comments,

> I need

> > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> >

July 22, 2005

You read articles,I do the cultures?That theory is so REDICULOUS.

How is it possable that you guys run with a story and it becomes the

bible of belief.I have done over 100 cfs patients and know there

exact sinus pathogens,and fungi only ever showed up a couple of

times!!!!

I come to these forums and absolutely NO _ONE has had a sinus swab

outside of penny that grows pseudonomads and staphylococcus.Then you

guys and the so called articles guarantee us it's FUNGAL..Yet the

10,000 plus swabs done by newcastle on sinus pathogens are also

ignored by a study that possably hasn't swabbed a rats arse. The

fact that fungal drugs are good against some species of

staphylococcus and pseudonomads does not mean that you have fungi.

Your also going head on against decades of reasonably succesfull

antimicrobial treatments for sinusitis.As anyone can tell you if

it's fungal you'll crash and burn on antibiotics.

tony

> Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down regulates

the immune

> system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

transplant

> patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

incidental .The

> hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …When

infected

> mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a normal

common or

> garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust Immune

response

> ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the lack of

colour ,

> our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

>

> Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

infections.

>

> JW.

>

> Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Oklahoma

Health

> Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

>

> Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

progressive

> disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence factor

is the

> fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host protective

> mechanisms.

>

> PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

>

> See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

>

> Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus

infections may

> be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

>

> * Article in Mayo

<http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> Clinic Proceedings

>

> Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our

thinking

> that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to

fungi in the

> nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to fungi

in the

> nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

September 1999,

> has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe (ENT

> University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

>

> There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to further

> investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the

respiratory

> tract.

> In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

Laboratory at

> the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood cells

>

> called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were producing

the kind

> of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people did

>

> not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001 Annual

Meeting of

> the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

>

> will be published soon.

>

> The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of

Health

> (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

investigate the

>

> mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

>

> If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation that

persists

> for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your personal

> physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

(otorhinolaryngologist) for

> the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the disease

is

> associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

associated

> problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

>

> Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run because

they target

> bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.

> Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids are the

> mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the

patient.

>

> Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes

and mist

> sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic sinusitis,

but do not

> eliminate the inflammation.

>

> Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> Mayo Clinic

> Rochester, Minnesota

>

> This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

>

> d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

>

> Stop press information

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

>

> See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal drugs

to treat

> sinusitis.

>

> [infections] info on sinus bacteria

>

> I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

area and

> later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the outside

of the

> cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with very

clear

> tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

chlamydia

> bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head, also

at

> the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of these

> tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or comments,

I need

> to hear your thoughts. Jimd

>

July 22, 2005

-

1) The toxins are sometimes called haemolysins. You grow sinus

bacteria then you look for damage to the surrounding region of

bacterial growth in the agar, this shows up as red blood cell

clearance/destruction or greening of tha agar.

I actually have a sample at the moment of MS sinus bacteria and

should grow it side by side with fibromyalgia sinus bacteria so you

can observe how one exhibits no toxic output yet the other has a

huge clearance of red blood cells.

2)Doctors generally don't bother fixing patients they want to slap a

bandaid on things, which is frustrating when you want good science

to be on your side.I never had a problem with getting anything from

my doctor because I chose WISELY-If you go in and bust there brain

they just go on and do regular doctor bullshit, if you go in with a

gameplan you slip in and out and get all your requirements met. I

was possably only one of a few that got about 20 blood culture tests

done at my regular doctor visits as opposed to possably zero ever

being done by his whole medical group.It's just you know what your

dealing with when your ill because this guy holds the key to getting

you on track.If he's not upto par you gotta move along. I also am

highly against the piano bar clinics because they are big on all in

your head diagnosing not getting facts and answers because bottom

line,there own,is all that matters.I can't see how a 100 to 200

dollar consultation getting knowhere,whihc is what is happening 99%

of the time in cfs forums is bearing any fruit without having some

sort of twisted test of any description going on.I mean 50 tripsto

your doctor in a couple of years and ZIP as far as smart pathoilogy

of any description seems the norm.

So to sum up no.2 get smarter with your choice of medical

proffesionbal and do your homework on what you want.Get blood

cultures when feeling violently ill,low body temps.You see this

can't be refused because it's a fickle test often-yet is 100% right

for your complaint.

3) science is your only friend because pseudonomads and staph can

possably swap genetic maerial easily,giving a treatment strategy a

high failure rate.Imagine if you swab several times and never find

pseudonomads or enterococcus you have a higher success rate with

therapy because the gene swapping of plasmids giving antimicrobial

resiostance isn't as likely to occur.This is why you see so many

variables on auto immune ilnesses all over the net.

-- In infections , " Schaafsma "

<compucruz@y...> wrote:

> Hi Tony,

>

> Three questions, one vague and two pretty specific:

>

> 1) What can you tell us about the toxins you're seeing and how

they

> are similar to and/or different from the LPS we associate with

gram

> neg bacteria?

>

> 2) What sort of brief can you give us that might help patients get

> past the formidable resistance to culturing we encounter at every

> turn, from both GPs and specialists?

>

> 3) Are there specific antibiotics, at specific MICs or MBCs, that

in

> your experience tend to retain efficacy against all three of the

> bugs you emphasize (staph, strep, and pseudomonas)? How would you

> advise someone who can't get cultures done to proceed with empiric

> treatment?

>

> I know you've addressed each of these things in former posts, hope

> you won't be frustrated by a request to do so again. The occasion

> being given by the study J. points us to, finding persistent

> sinusitis 9x more common in CFS patients than controls. That study

> just observes the phenomenon, is neutral respecting the pathogens

> responsible.

>

> I guess I'm hoping that both you and J. can use that occasion

> to give us a clearer, more complete picture of how you see the

> pathogenesis unfolding in your respective models. That seems more

> useful to me than debating about which is more prevalent or

> important.

>

> Cheers,

>

> > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

> area and

> > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

outside

> of

> > the

> > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with

very

> clear

> > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

> > chlamydia

> > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head,

also

> at

> > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of

these

> > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

comments,

> I

> > need

> > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

July 23, 2005

You are trying to defy gravity. How stupid would I be if something

as clear as day is missed. Remember I have had 2 to 3 years lab

experience using our cities senior microbiologist as a back stop on

anything and everything I observe.I actually had the license to do

anything I wanted at this lab because I just gave them a small

amnount of business that fitted nicely with there staff and

structure.

My lab friend,worked in our largest path lab in our city as the

senior microbiologist.How much more into bacteria can my choice of

lab personal be.

My friends all queried and used the phone to get there contacts at

the mayo to explain that study in detail and again the answers just

didnb't come forward. One explanation was that people use the

prestige of the mayo to make there studies sound solid.

You really will remain in the dark if you believe everythuing you

read.Actually the studies of this and that and whatever don't have

the foggiest with what is wrong with us...Also one of australia's

best studies on cfs nwcastle university would have to be a bunch of

duds studying sinus bacteria since 1989.After 16 years and many

thousands of sinus swabs you want to tell them there missing the

fungus.

How many on these forums realise the extent of the damage that a

simple sinus explanation is missing in there diagnosis?

Do yourself a favour and also speak to the leading ENT's that leave

there patients on over a year of IV's with the knowledge of the

monster infection there dealing with and tell them that there

missing the fungus and should discontinue the vancomycin.Pluessse go

with your gut and commonsense otherwise you'll be stuck a lifetime.

Actually my friend in san fransisco has scored a brilliant ENT at

stanford that is going to keepo knocking her infection down with all

the hard hitting IV' antibiotics. Why don't people with 30 years of

practise on the frontline buy into this theory?

Get yourself up to par with what medicine is all about and stop

believeing the crap as gospel when it's anything but true.Actually

next time you have a fungal complaint get it swabbed and when you

discover it's pseudonomads come back and we'll communicate further.

And remember I look for the toxins and high antibiotic resistance

before I even put my hand up to call a bug bad.Generalisations are

not what good science is all about.

tony

> > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down regulates

> the immune

> > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

> transplant

> > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> incidental .The

> > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …

When

> infected

> > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

normal

> common or

> > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust

Immune

> response

> > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

lack of

> colour ,

> > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> >

> > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> infections.

> >

> > JW.

> >

> > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

Oklahoma

> Health

> > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> >

> > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> progressive

> > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

factor

> is the

> > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

protective

> > mechanisms.

> >

> > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> >

> > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> >

> > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus

> infections may

> > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> >

> > * Article in Mayo

> <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > Clinic Proceedings

> >

> > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our

> thinking

> > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to

> fungi in the

> > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

fungi

> in the

> > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> September 1999,

> > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe

(ENT

> > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> >

> > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

further

> > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the

> respiratory

> > tract.

> > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

> Laboratory at

> > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood

cells

> >

> > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

producing

> the kind

> > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people

did

> >

> > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

Annual

> Meeting of

> > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> >

> > will be published soon.

> >

> > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of

> Health

> > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> investigate the

> >

> > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> >

> > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation

that

> persists

> > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

personal

> > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

disease

> is

> > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> associated

> > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> >

> > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

because

> they target

> > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.

> > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids

are the

> > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the

> patient.

> >

> > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes

> and mist

> > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

sinusitis,

> but do not

> > eliminate the inflammation.

> >

> > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > Mayo Clinic

> > Rochester, Minnesota

> >

> > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> >

> > d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> >

> > Stop press information

> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> >

> > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal

drugs

> to treat

> > sinusitis.

> >

> > [infections] info on sinus bacteria

> >

> > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the sinus

> area and

> > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

outside

> of the

> > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with

very

> clear

> > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know that

> chlamydia

> > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons head,

also

> at

> > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause of

these

> > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

comments,

> I need

> > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> >

July 23, 2005

Do you have the faintest idea how to get to the top microbiologist

in your state?

When you discover how to get them on side and have the luxury of

calling them and bringing over any sample and discussing it- you'd

have to wake up early in the morning to beat me at this game.I was

telling people 4 years ago that antifungals were brilliant against

bacteria if not better than many antibiotics.I don't have to prove

my credentials just go back and read what I was touching on years

earlier to find it's become mainstream thinking today.I don't go

reading and posting articles-because they don';t have the foggiest

what is wrong with us, so I can't hang my hat on too much that's

supposedly factual.

Fungus's turn up in culture plates ..

I also have friends that visit all the top fungal experts in

california.I speak to my yank friends everyday because they

network,best doctors best scans.

Have you tried or do you know about V fend. We have been at this

game for yonks I have even tried V fend against bacteria. Just in

case you don't know your fungus facts V fend is latest and greatest.

I have more antibiotic testing discs than our leading hospitals.I am

passionate about facts not storytelling.

What do you think of newcastle cfs sinus studies? They are also the

ones that link autism to sinus bacteria and the funny study that was

touched on at cfs exp-autism improvement on vancomycin made really

interesting reading.I think there 800,000 dollar's a year turnover

would have seen many swabs examined at 95 dollars a test.

get an incubator grow your fungus and then sound off. I did

what I did because I would have sworn like yourself 5 years earlier

that I had a fungal infection.I just tired of living in the dark ..

I actually find facts are easier to prove. I grow my sinus bacteria

frequently out of urine and blood. I actually would come over to

your place,say nothing hand you a few plates and welcome you to give

samples your comfortable giving and show you the results. You'd be

welcome to view the growths, you can then swear black and blue

whatever you like but the facts would be there growing in the plate.

I actually done this exact thing with someone swearing black and

blue they had been given a sexually transmited borrelia infection.

staph areus/staph epi grew out of her blood sample, similar out of

urine and possably only a staph epi out of her nasal. I knew there's

no point trying to transformn people's thinking,so I non challante

told her what I found and welcomed her to come have a look.

Actually you would have benefitted from all the info on the candida

forum but uinfortunately it closed due to the hostess taking ill and

realsing she needed better science than candida theories.

> > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

regulates

> > the immune

> > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS

in

> > transplant

> > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > incidental .The

> > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?] …

> When

> > infected

> > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

> normal

> > common or

> > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust

> Immune

> > response

> > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

> lack of

> > colour ,

> > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > >

> > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > infections.

> > >

> > > JW.

> > >

> > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> Oklahoma

> > Health

> > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > >

> > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > progressive

> > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

> factor

> > is the

> > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> protective

> > > mechanisms.

> > >

> > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > >

> > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > >

> > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

sinus

> > infections may

> > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > >

> > > * Article in Mayo

> > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > Clinic Proceedings

> > >

> > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence

to our

> > thinking

> > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction to

> > fungi in the

> > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

> fungi

> > in the

> > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> > September 1999,

> > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

Europe

> (ENT

> > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > >

> > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

> further

> > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of

the

> > respiratory

> > > tract.

> > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > Laboratory at

> > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood

> cells

> > >

> > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> producing

> > the kind

> > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

people

> did

> > >

> > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

> Annual

> > Meeting of

> > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> > >

> > > will be published soon.

> > >

> > > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute

of

> > Health

> > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> > investigate the

> > >

> > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> > >

> > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation

> that

> > persists

> > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> personal

> > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

> disease

> > is

> > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> > associated

> > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > >

> > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> because

> > they target

> > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

sinusitis.

> > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids

> are the

> > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of

the

> > patient.

> > >

> > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

washes

> > and mist

> > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> sinusitis,

> > but do not

> > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > >

> > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > Mayo Clinic

> > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > >

> > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > >

> > > d fungal

infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > >

> > > Stop press information

> > >

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > >

> > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> drugs

> > to treat

> > > sinusitis.

> > >

> > > [infections] info on sinus

bacteria

> > >

> > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

sinus

> > area and

> > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> outside

> > of the

> > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

with

> very

> > clear

> > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know

that

> > chlamydia

> > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

head,

> also

> > at

> > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause

of

> these

> > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> comments,

> > I need

> > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > >

July 23, 2005

Tony,

So let me get this straight - J's an idiot for reading studies,

but the Newcastle study is the beez kneez? I do believe it's the

only study I've ever heard you refer to. Care to provide us a link?

An excerpt? Something? I'm all excited you found a study you didn't

feel immediatly compelled to take a dump on! Can I see it now?

Any idea how many CFS patients were cured as a result of treatment

based on Newcastle's cultures, or yours? That might be pertinent,

don't ya think?

If you read J's posts, instead of spending your energy

insulting him, you might come across the specific suggestion that

fungii are adding a layer of immunosuppression that keep these

bacterial infections coming back - a proposition I personally don't

find well-refuted by whether you did or did not find fungus in your

cultures. Were you culturing for fungus? What methods did you use?

Where is YOUR data? 's asked, I've asked, a whole slew of us

have asked. Not for names, or anything that would compromise anyone,

just the method, the number of samples, the findings, things you

surely noted. (Didn't you?)

If a fungal layer of immunosuppression is in fact assuring the

persistence of these bacterial sinus infections, then all the

antibiotics you're preaching will accomplish, if the fungii aren't

addressed, will be to create more antibiotic resistant bugs for to

you to culture. Can you explain why that should not worry us?

Is the answer that you encourage patients with bacterial infections

to treat with Nystatin and other antifungals? And does the fact that

some do so with success not lend another source of credibility to

J's focus on fungii as immunosuppressive pathogens keeping the

sinuses vulnerable to bacterial opportunists? Do you have some

more 'scientific' explanation to share with us?

At least this most recent post of yours has SOME expository content.

Your last post to J. left me gasping at the unadorned rudeness

you've managed to cultivate, along with your microbes.

In the world where we actually live, 'Tony says so' is no subtitute

at all for the brief I asked you for, to persuade reluctant

physicians that culturing for these bugs is medically indicated.

But you gave me no brief, just advice to keep looking for better

doctors.

Ah, why didn't I think of that? Not like I've spent the last 3 years

doing NOTHING ELSE, described that whole long search here, along

with a zillion other of our members! *Slaps forehead* A better

doctor! But of course!

Jeez, Tony, if you could observe humans with half the energy you

apply to observing microbes, you'd be bloody brilliant. What a shame

that we can't compete with the psuedomonas for your attention.

Is Penny one of the 100 CFS patients you've swabbed? The last I

heard, she was still having symptoms of chronic sinusitis, taking

megadoses of Benicar, and feeling something less than perfectly

healthy. Is that the kind of proof you've accumulated, that CFS is

really all about the three - I counted em, that's right, THREE -

species of disease-causing microbes whose existence you publically

acknowledge?

I do NOT question Penny when she says you were a real help, but

would like to see someone whose CFS is actually GONE after

antibiotic therapy dictated by your cultures, before I hear any more

repititions of YOUR gospel (which unlike J's posts, requires

investing a great deal of confidence in your personal infallability -

something I'm afraid you can't expect us all to share).

WHERE IS YOUR DATA? Lying fallow in a notebook by the microscope? Is

there some reason you can't take the time and energy you spend

insulting members here and document what you've done, what you've

found, and with what results in terms of patient prognosis?

Don't be shy. Don't worry that someone will call it 'kinda small'.

SHOW US YOUR DATA. We all want to see it, and decide for ourselves

whether it warrants your conclusions.

That's what we do on this site. We get as close as we can to the

source material, and we talk together about what it might or might

not mean. You want to play authority figure, get a medical degree.

I'm not asking you to do that. I don't care if you flip burgers for

a living. I want to see YOUR DATA.

Thanks so much.

S.

> > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

regulates

> > the immune

> > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

> > transplant

> > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > incidental .The

> > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?] …

> When

> > infected

> > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

> normal

> > common or

> > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust

> Immune

> > response

> > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

> lack of

> > colour ,

> > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > >

> > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > infections.

> > >

> > > JW.

> > >

> > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> Oklahoma

> > Health

> > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > >

> > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > progressive

> > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

> factor

> > is the

> > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> protective

> > > mechanisms.

> > >

> > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > >

> > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > >

> > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic sinus

> > infections may

> > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > >

> > > * Article in Mayo

> > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > Clinic Proceedings

> > >

> > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to

our

> > thinking

> > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction

to

> > fungi in the

> > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

> fungi

> > in the

> > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> > September 1999,

> > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

Europe

> (ENT

> > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > >

> > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

> further

> > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the

> > respiratory

> > > tract.

> > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

> > Laboratory at

> > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood

> cells

> > >

> > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> producing

> > the kind

> > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

people

> did

> > >

> > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

> Annual

> > Meeting of

> > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> > >

> > > will be published soon.

> > >

> > > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of

> > Health

> > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> > investigate the

> > >

> > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> > >

> > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation

> that

> > persists

> > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> personal

> > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

> disease

> > is

> > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> > associated

> > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > >

> > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> because

> > they target

> > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

sinusitis.

> > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids

> are the

> > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of

the

> > patient.

> > >

> > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

washes

> > and mist

> > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> sinusitis,

> > but do not

> > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > >

> > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > Mayo Clinic

> > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > >

> > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > >

> > > d fungal

infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > >

> > > Stop press information

> > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > >

> > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal

> drugs

> > to treat

> > > sinusitis.

> > >

> > > [infections] info on sinus bacteria

> > >

> > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

sinus

> > area and

> > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> outside

> > of the

> > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with

> very

> > clear

> > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know

that

> > chlamydia

> > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

head,

> also

> > at

> > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause

of

> these

> > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> comments,

> > I need

> > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > >

July 23, 2005

1) Why can't it be a mixed infection? WHy is it either/or with you

two?

2) Did you see my post that antifungals are antimalarial? And we know

Schardt says they're anti borrelia. WHat pisses me off is nobody

really does research to see whether the spectrum of action is wider

than people realize.

> > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

regulates

> > the immune

> > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS in

> > transplant

> > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > incidental .The

> > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is it?]

…

> When

> > infected

> > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

> normal

> > common or

> > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a robust

> Immune

> > response

> > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

> lack of

> > colour ,

> > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > >

> > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > infections.

> > >

> > > JW.

> > >

> > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> Oklahoma

> > Health

> > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > >

> > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > progressive

> > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

> factor

> > is the

> > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> protective

> > > mechanisms.

> > >

> > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > >

> > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > >

> > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

sinus

> > infections may

> > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > >

> > > * Article in Mayo

> > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > Clinic Proceedings

> > >

> > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to

our

> > thinking

> > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction

to

> > fungi in the

> > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

> fungi

> > in the

> > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> > September 1999,

> > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

Europe

> (ENT

> > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > >

> > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

> further

> > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of

the

> > respiratory

> > > tract.

> > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research

> > Laboratory at

> > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood

> cells

> > >

> > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> producing

> > the kind

> > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

people

> did

> > >

> > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

> Annual

> > Meeting of

> > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> > >

> > > will be published soon.

> > >

> > > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute

of

> > Health

> > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> > investigate the

> > >

> > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> > >

> > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus inflammation

> that

> > persists

> > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> personal

> > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

> disease

> > is

> > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> > associated

> > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > >

> > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> because

> > they target

> > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

sinusitis.

> > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids

> are the

> > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of

the

> > patient.

> > >

> > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

washes

> > and mist

> > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> sinusitis,

> > but do not

> > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > >

> > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > Mayo Clinic

> > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > >

> > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > >

> > > d fungal

infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > >

> > > Stop press information

> > >

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > >

> > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal

> drugs

> > to treat

> > > sinusitis.

> > >

> > > [infections] info on sinus

bacteria

> > >

> > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

sinus

> > area and

> > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> outside

> > of the

> > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person with

> very

> > clear

> > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know

that

> > chlamydia

> > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

head,

> also

> > at

> > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause

of

> these

> > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> comments,

> > I need

> > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > >

July 23, 2005

Tony:

'I was

telling people 4 years ago that antifungals were brilliant against

bacteria if not better than many antibiotics. "

Why is this so. You see hints in the literature, as per the

babesia/malaria abstract I posted.

WHY would antifungals kill bacteria and protozoa?

I wish somebody would fricken help me figure this out (not mad at you).

I can't tolerate even 20 mg diflucan now without liver pain.

I think you're pretty accurate except for the borrelia part, but

eventually you'll come round regards that, I think. Its a very nasty

critter that changes all its surface antigens constantly AND binds

complement. ANd its OspA is highly immunogenic, causing some of us to

have an outsize reaction.

July 23, 2005

One interesting class of mechanisms to look at is how various

antimicrobials effect the activity of the body's own immune defenses.

Here's an abstract citing an increased killing capability of the

body's own antimicrobial peptide, lactoferricin B, in the presence

of both minocycline and monolaurin, a coconut oil derivative.

Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2002 Oct;66(10):2161-7.

Increased Staphylococcus-killing activity of an antimicrobial

peptide, lactoferricin B, with minocycline and monoacylglycerol.

Wakabayashi H, Teraguchi S, Tamura Y.

Nutritional Science Laboratory, Morinaga Milk Industry Co., Ltd.,

Zama, Kanagawa 228-8583, Japan. h_wakaby@...

This study aimed to find antibiotics or other compounds that could

increase the antimicrobial activity of an antimicrobial peptide,

lactoferricin B (LFcin , against Staphylococcus aureus, including

antibiotic-resistant strains.

Among conventional antibiotics, minocycline increased the

bactericidal activity of LFcin B against S. aureus, but methicillin,

ceftizoxime, and sulfamethoxazole-trimethoprim did not have such an

effect.

The combination of minocycline and LFcin B had synergistic effects

against three antibiotic-resistant strains of S. aureus, according

to result of checkerboard analysis.

Screening of 33 compounds, including acids and salts, alcohols,

amino acids, proteins and peptides, sugar, and lipids, showed that

medium-chain monoacylglycerols increased the bactericidal activity

of LFcin B against three S. aureus strains.

The short-term killing test in water and the killing curve test in

growing cultures showed that a combination of LFcin B and monolaurin

(a monoacylglycerol with a 12-carbon acyl chain) killed S. aureus

more rapidly than either agent alone. These findings may be helpful

in the application of antimicrobial peptides in medical or other

situations.

PMID: 12450127 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So I think of Barb Peck, who was powering down the mino AND the

coconut oil, among other things, and got herself well, and I think

to myself 'Barb was kicking some bacterial booty!' But of course

lauricidin has activity against candida too, which seems logically

like it would at least free up immune system resources to deal with

bacterial pathogens...

If it's of any interest, Jill, when I type " bactericidal antifungal "

into the NIH database search engine the first few pages that come up

are mostly about cationic antimicrobial peptides, essential oils,

other things that have a well-established activity against both

fungal and bacterial organisms. Which shows to go ya that the body

is quite capable of killing two birds with one stone and makes it a

little less crazy-making that pharmaceutical science might (if only

inadvertently) manage the same trick now and then.

According to Pub Med ID# PMID: 12847386, " fluconazole has been shown

to enhance bactericidal activity of neutrophils and also to inhibit

transmigration and adhesion of neutrophils in capillaries of distant

organs. "

Nothing to do, in that case, with what it was doing to the bacteria

directly, but an immune-modulated affect.

Ceftriaxone, which is said to have poor intracellular penetration,

has nonetheless in a number of studies been just as 'effective' as

bugs as more 'targeted' abx. A riddle that may relate to findings

that Ceftriaxone increases bacterocidal activity in infected

macrophages (I'm quoting from memory, but it's just an example).

Then there's the more intuitive stuff about how if you relieve the

immune system of one pathogen and its immunosuppressive devices you

empower it to attack other bugs.

And of course there are membrane issues, because if you look at the

mode of action which their manufacturers say allow antifungals to

work against fungus it is largely about disrupting the membrane and

the membrane is largely the issue, it seems, with persistent CWD.

So the most effective approach if we have the right sort of focus

might be to look at everything we know of that has a non-toxic up-

regulating effect on the body's own immune activity as it relates to

a particular infection, and consider that a starting point, and as

we add pharmaceutical compounds bear in mind both the primary and

secondary effects, etc, etc.

These are just preliminary comments, not an attempt to discuss in

any exhaustive way a huge topic about which more is being learned in

the labs all the time.

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?]

> …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is

in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi

….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in

fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University

of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-

murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to

cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate

host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added

evidence to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic

rhinosinusitis to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic

Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic

Rochester to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see

your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long

run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the

symptoms of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water

nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in

the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down

the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a

person with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 23, 2005

Well, here I am. Maybe I am the person with Lyme, taking an

antifungal, Diflucan, that you are looking for.

My LLMD put be on a two month coarse of Diflucan because a little

over a year ago, I was put on the antifunal, Nizorel and seemed to

make quite a bit of progress. So we thought it might be a good idea

to try again.

I've been on the Difulcan for about 2 weeks and feel rather cruddy.

Brain not working, lethargic, achey, eyes burn, sweaty, I'm not

having fun. Thing is, my doc also put me on a beta blocker to slow

my heart down. During my flare it was up to 100. My heart has gone

from the 100s to the mid 60s where it has never been. So I don't

know if I feel cruddy because of the beta blocker, the Diflucan or

the flair.

I had actually thought I would take a break from the Diflucan to see

if I feel any better.

My LLMD is aware of the doctor who believes he is curing Lyme by

treating with antifungals. We actually talked about it, and he is

wondering if progress even in a Lyme patient isn't due to an

underlying yeast infestation. So we are trying to cover all the

bases, before we start with ABX if they are still needed.

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?]

> …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is

in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi

….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in

fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University

of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-

murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to

cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate

host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added

evidence to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic

rhinosinusitis to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic

Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic

Rochester to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see

your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long

run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the

symptoms of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water

nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in

the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down

the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a

person with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 23, 2005

ITs true I skip some posts that might be arguments...

I can't tolerate lamisil at all. Ten years ago it gave me horrible

liver pain, really bad. Even a smidge. ANd you know there is

occasional liver failure with it. And after trying it for only five

days, my liver/gallbladder was touchy for many months.

What about that leishmanianas drug--misefotine or whatever? I just

have a feeling, weird hunch about that.

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?]

> …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is

in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added

evidence to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis

to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic

Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester

to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see

your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms

of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down

the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 23, 2005

(long and boring)

Pay attention! When ill with a bacterial infection you look for and

place one of your cities leading microbiologists on your team.What

would you do???? microbiology books aren't going to get you answers

that what your observing is going to give you.

An example of this would be the babesia discussion which is so long

and drawn out without too much resolution as to what the best

treatment is. If I suspected or cared to attack this angle- it would

be a phone call and what's the best way to catch a sample, and what

shows up as the best treatment option.If I showed you babesia

samples from patients in culture plates and tested several agent's,

it wouldn't be correct again because of some crappola that you'd

invent because this study showed this or that in pubmed.I mean I'm

so front line- not getting anything second hand or hear say.

Actually in your own case I'll bet my bottom dollar that you'd have

a sinus infection bigger than texas with sinus channels into your

brain and all your other diagnosis will mean squat if you bother to

scan this correctly.Actually you'd be leaking spinal fluid(cracks in

the skull) without a doubt in my mind. Then you can go on the merri

go round of fungus versus bacteria. Actually you may want to use Dr.

marinkovich california's leading fungal doctor that all my friends

have visited.You may also pay attention to the treatment that makes

you feel your best,instead of hanging your hat on pubmeds.

I mention the newcastle study because it's the only sinus study that

bothers with fibromyalgia/cfs/autism. The mayo study is superior

because it appears on pubmed? How does it fit when 99% of regular

doctors treat infection with antibiotics. There's some good and

success attributable to this common practise. very few if any

doctors will put you on amphotecerin B or fluconazole in any country

last time I looked. I actually had fungulin which is amphotecerin B

but got more relief from sucking on nystatin, so I had to know what

nystatin was attacking that made me feel great.

Anyway in the end the proof is in the pudding and when you get

yourelf moving forward you'll want to know what exactly is going on

instead of being kept in the dark.

As far as Penny goes and sinus infections you'll discover that the

amount of rot/erosion in the sinus region in many needs pulling the

face off the skull and cleaning out the mess. The other option is IV

antibiotics till your scans show major improbvements yet resolution

may be years away. Actually have a friend doing the hard yards right

now, she just showed improvement recently in 'atest scan.

Basically generalising is the problem, you have to get the best and

continuously modified treatment to get yourself well. I just don't

know any other way.You've also got to put into perspective your

sinus issues, many cancer's are festering in the sinuses as another

friend discovered recently seeing an oncologist for her very

diseased sinuses.(no cancer though)

Actually I think my arrogance comes from the amount of feedback I

get from many people's samples and doctor visits all over the USA.I

tend to get information coming at me from speaking directly to

californian based Infectious disease doctors, another friend I have

is Liz the senior microbiologist at USCD teaching medical hospital i

frequently talk ovber the phone with her and what she's grown and

how profuse. Geez I must be stupid for tackling these things from

all possable angles and speaking out of absolutely the best possable

position on the planet, as I go global when it comes to this.

What is tyhe next challenge I should take up as far as information

gathering goes. I can't go the literature, because I don't like

it.again it doesn't have the foggiest with what is wrong with

autoimmune patients.

So to sum up, get yourself downm to phoenix and a DR. moeser, get

him to scan your head and let him show you your problems.The imaging

preparation from this guy is america's best at this point. This guy

will show you in detail what your problem is. The cultures if you

bother to follow up on will also tell you what to do.Unfortunately

you fail to realise that leaving a festering infection for many

years and in some decades requires more than just antibiotics .....

Well I suppose the method to my getting well or having studied many

bacterial swabs personally and delivered many overseas samples to a

pathology lab and observed there outcomes- must have been the wrong

approach, because it's 'fungus' silly.Geez my friend at the lab

that's also observing this must have been brainwashed by me.Also all

my other stupid friends that have had many cultures and alway's

specify fungus in there search, also not to mention tuberculosis is

almost alway's included in there requests, must make us imbeciles

because we sit on our hands and place quotes on internet sites.

I don't have anything bookmarked- yet the newcastle sinus study has

been brought forward on many occasions, you may find it in the front

of cfs experimental if you wish. I 'm sure it's in the home page.

Fungus grows on many media, I comfortably find it on blood agar

plates.The treatment of fungus never gave me any relief unless it

showed antimicrobial properties. The amphotecerin B is the strongest

agent but today's newest is supposed to be something super special.

I have sporinox and V fend to play around with at present.I don't do

things by half, I have five ARB's and don't use any realising that

once they stop clamping the infection it's sort of pointless.

I just go to extremes that you wouldn't have the foggiest.I respect

the nature of the beast that I'm dealing with.Unfortunately I can't

get you articles from pubmed or the medical library because when I

was reading the infectious diseases books 'they clearly indicated to

me' that autoimmune was the same as disseminated infection,.If you

had a full blown gonococcal infection you'd have all the symptoms

you describe. The only thing is that it's a rare gonocococci

bacteria that disseminates, the 4 out of 5 species identified so far

are restricted to the genital area.

I must say that your useless when it comes to dealing with your

health care proffesionals and the skill and personality you display

in your writing is all for nought if you can't get your doctor to do

a few things you request. Mate all my american friends get cultures

frequently and don't have any problems twisting and turning the

system to get themselves what's required.Actually my favourite

statement recently was from a friends neurologist that was amazed at

her improvement on IV antibiotics,not given by the neuroloigist but

a lyme doctor. Neurologists don't believe in infections causing

problems often.My friends travel from one coast to the other leaving

no stones unturned and having no restriction whatsoever on getting

there needs met.What are you getting? I have seen you struggle for

your life and zippo mostly,and you attack me because I'm bucking the

mainstream and breaking down barriers.

I just posted somewhere how important it was to have something

positive to hang your hat on after 50 doctor visits.I also made it

obvious that rellying on your doctor to come forward with idea's may

be along time waiting and putting small idea's into play was

important. Virtually plan your next assault at your doctor's in

advance but don't push his limitations.His limitations are what you

can and cannot get away with YOU DECIDE THEM. I don't have a problem

with my doctor and he actually respects everything I show him and

prescribes me anything I want.Imagine penicillin plus 10

repeats.Science doesn't hurt our relationship,he actually respects

it more than the crappy system he's been given.

tony

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS

in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?] …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence

to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of

the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute

of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 24, 2005

Jill

I'm the first imbecile on this planet that had to get into doing

cultures to observe wether bacteria were inhibited by antifungals.

This was my biggest passion when I felt great taking nystatin and I

felt great traking amoxacillin.I thought iof this fungal story where

true the amoxacillin should nail me not fix me.

tony

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?]

> …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in

a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence

to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis

to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings

in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester

to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms

of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 24, 2005

Jill

You guys haven't even scrapped past first base when it comes to

bacteria.-All my friends are constantly doing cultures and

sensitivities all over the USA. Actually had a friend send mayo

samples because she wanted to make sure actinomycoses wasn't being

missed.Have someone from new york that rings me and is big on lyme

and growing lyme, someone told me he has bucks and isn't scared to

spend them on lyme research.Apparently grows lyme from himself yet

can't make himself well.

Is starting to get disenchanted by lyme.

You'll all come around if you follow some simple steps. Get your

sinuses scanned, be carefull you haven't had any dodgy dental work.

Frequently broken files are left to fester infections in dental

work, but again it's the mercury, is the catch cry.These infections

are multi pathogen getting the one that tips you over to put

yourself back in control is important. You also do oxygen therapy

which is part of a package approach that's required.

You can't convince me anything you have to show me. there's also

this Koch's postulates that sort of ring true with ilness. Grow the

offending organism get it to produce disease in the animal model and

recover the pathogen and reoeat the process. Your timber

workers/lumberjacks, many are showing positive to Bb yet aren't ill?

Many also do therapies for 5 years often designed to treat this and

are no better? When things stack up I believe. My friend is highly

positive in all bb tests yet her treatment success is based on gram

poitive drug choices.Please explain.

tony

-- In infections , " jill1313 "

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

> Tony:

>

> 'I was

> telling people 4 years ago that antifungals were brilliant against

> bacteria if not better than many antibiotics. "

>

> Why is this so. You see hints in the literature, as per the

> babesia/malaria abstract I posted.

>

> WHY would antifungals kill bacteria and protozoa?

> I wish somebody would fricken help me figure this out (not mad at

you).

>

> I can't tolerate even 20 mg diflucan now without liver pain.

>

> I think you're pretty accurate except for the borrelia part, but

> eventually you'll come round regards that, I think. Its a very

nasty

> critter that changes all its surface antigens constantly AND binds

> complement. ANd its OspA is highly immunogenic, causing some of us

to

> have an outsize reaction.

July 24, 2005

Jill said:

" Its a very nasty critter that changes all its surface antigens

constantly AND binds complement. ANd its OspA is highly immunogenic,

causing some of us to have an outsize reaction. "

You've got me as excited as I get these days Jill.

I need to understand your statement as I believe it applies to my

situation. My Igenix Bb #30 IgG is +++ and IgM is +. I've had horrific

reactions to all antibiotics/antifungals. Would you kindly explain or

direct me to somewhere that explains how/why 'OspA is highly

immunogenic causing outsize reaction'?

Thank you,

Robyn

July 24, 2005

Tony, what kind of insurance or funds do these friends of yours have?

Just curious. It's very difficult with managed care here. Doctors can

lose their license by " overprescribing " antibiotics.

> > > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> > regulates

> > > > the immune

> > > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the IS

> in

> > > > transplant

> > > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > > incidental .The

> > > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

> it?] …

> > > When

> > > > infected

> > > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is in

a

> > > normal

> > > > common or

> > > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

> robust

> > > Immune

> > > > response

> > > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > > lack of

> > > > colour ,

> > > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > > > >

> > > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > > > infections.

> > > > >

> > > > > JW.

> > > > >

> > > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> > > Oklahoma

> > > > Health

> > > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > > > >

> > > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > > > progressive

> > > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > > factor

> > > > is the

> > > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> > > protective

> > > > > mechanisms.

> > > > >

> > > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > > >

> > > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > > >

> > > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > > infections may

> > > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > > >

> > > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > > >

> > > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence

> to

> > our

> > > > thinking

> > > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

> reaction

> > to

> > > > fungi in the

> > > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis

to

> > > fungi

> > > > in the

> > > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings

in

> > > > September 1999,

> > > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> > Europe

> > > (ENT

> > > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > > >

> > > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester

to

> > > further

> > > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of

> the

> > > > respiratory

> > > > > tract.

> > > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

> Research

> > > > Laboratory at

> > > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

> blood

> > > cells

> > > > >

> > > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > > producing

> > > > the kind

> > > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> > people

> > > did

> > > > >

> > > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > > Annual

> > > > Meeting of

> > > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and

> > > > >

> > > > > will be published soon.

> > > > >

> > > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > > Health

> > > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further

> > > > investigate the

> > > > >

> > > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

> inflammation

> > > that

> > > > persists

> > > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see your

> > > personal

> > > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > > disease

> > > > is

> > > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those

> > > > associated

> > > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > > >

> > > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> > > because

> > > > they target

> > > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> > sinusitis.

> > > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

> steroids

> > > are the

> > > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms

of

> > the

> > > > patient.

> > > > >

> > > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

> > washes

> > > > and mist

> > > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > > sinusitis,

> > > > but do not

> > > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > > >

> > > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > > >

> > > > > d fungal

> > infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > > >

> > > > > Stop press information

> > > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > > >

> > > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

> antifungal

> > > drugs

> > > > to treat

> > > > > sinusitis.

> > > > >

> > > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > > >

> > > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

> > sinus

> > > > area and

> > > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down the

> > > outside

> > > > of the

> > > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

> with

> > > very

> > > > clear

> > > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I know

> > that

> > > > chlamydia

> > > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> > head,

> > > also

> > > > at

> > > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> > of

> > > these

> > > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > > comments,

> > > > I need

> > > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > > >

July 24, 2005

I don't know, Tony, for sure, but here is what I do know:

1) Whatever was in that tick 5 years ago made me immediately horribly

ill almost disabled, and its still in me. Tick guts are dirty so it

could've had lots of organisms.

2) We do know that BB is highly immunogenic in some of us. I will try

and post some literature here in the next few days.

I do agree with you--there could be much wider impact of

antimicrobials, whether antifungal or antibiotic, than we know. I

wish it was studied. YOu find these interesting tidbits in the

literature that nobody is following up. Anyway...

Yes the oxygen therapy is key...but...there's some missing piece for

me I haven't figured out yet. I plan to do the swabs...

> > Tony:

> >

> > 'I was

> > telling people 4 years ago that antifungals were brilliant against

> > bacteria if not better than many antibiotics. "

> >

> > Why is this so. You see hints in the literature, as per the

> > babesia/malaria abstract I posted.

> >

> > WHY would antifungals kill bacteria and protozoa?

> > I wish somebody would fricken help me figure this out (not mad at

> you).

> >

> > I can't tolerate even 20 mg diflucan now without liver pain.

> >

> > I think you're pretty accurate except for the borrelia part, but

> > eventually you'll come round regards that, I think. Its a very

> nasty

> > critter that changes all its surface antigens constantly AND

binds

> > complement. ANd its OspA is highly immunogenic, causing some of

us

> to

> > have an outsize reaction.

July 24, 2005

Hi Robyn. Well, Steere himself pointed out ahead of making the OspA

vaccine, that it could cause autoimmune reactions. Which is what

hapepned--and why they pulled the vaccine, because it made some

people so sick. I'll do a little bit of literature searching for you

too sometime in the next week and try to find citations.

> Jill said:

>

> " Its a very nasty critter that changes all its surface antigens

> constantly AND binds complement. ANd its OspA is highly

immunogenic,

> causing some of us to have an outsize reaction. "

>

> You've got me as excited as I get these days Jill.

>

> I need to understand your statement as I believe it applies to my

> situation. My Igenix Bb #30 IgG is +++ and IgM is +. I've had

horrific

> reactions to all antibiotics/antifungals. Would you kindly explain

or

> direct me to somewhere that explains how/why 'OspA is highly

> immunogenic causing outsize reaction'?

>

> Thank you,

>

> Robyn

July 24, 2005

TOny, can you get this drug:

infections/message/

4036

And see what it does to bacteria? I know you can't culture spirochetes

very easily. Well, heck, maybe you can culture some dental

spirochetes, though I don't know that they're a model for BB.

I have to go on my weird instincts that I get sometimes. I want to see

what else this drug does.

If possible will you let me know?

TIA, mate.

July 24, 2005

I bet alot of people with untreated Lyme (and other Infections)

are on the cusp of a full blown fungi infection also.

I was -

I never had a vaginal infection, but 2 weeks into abx and i knew

I had had (probably in intestines- bloat & constipation) and that's

where it was.

Blood showed 2.6 IgA (mucosal antibody) and normal is <0.8

knows what he's taking about.

Barb

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

it?]

> …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is

in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi ….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added

evidence to

> our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

reaction

> to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis

to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic

Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester

to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see

your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms

of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down

the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

July 24, 2005

PAul

I mention in another post that all my friends do the fungus cultures

as well as the tuberculosis cultures.These are swabs/bone fragments

whatever, they alway's test for fungus.

Do you visit Dr. Marinkovich? He's california's head fungus

doctor ...most of my frioends have..

When you have the foggiest what's crawling all over your body.It

sounds so immature even pathetic to put all your eggs in one basket.

I grow candida regularly and it disgusts me how these rediclulous

ideologies take this forum as facts. Candida is like bacteria 50

times larger grows quickly, it's colonies are like staph epidermis

to observe on agar plates.

Should I not concern myself with this growth because I need to see

if my immune system is telling me I have a candida infection.It's

just rediculous to sit in the corner of a forum and wave a flag and

post crap studies as gospel.

If you don't step up to the real world of testing your a long time

sick.You suspect candida? grow it and treat it with the best choice

drug ?This is rediculously easy for myself a back yard amateur to

do.With your daughter becoming a microbiologist she is easily in the

position to do this for you NOW?????It's not rocket science, also

your doctor will appreciate you showing him your samples as he'll

become your biggest ally.

I am familiar with all the agar's and the growth curves required to

culture fungii. I was lucky to observe the fungi oven long term

cultures as opposed to the bacterial oven in the lab.I also observed

the racks of agar plates for growing all the different things even

helicbacter has it's own unique blood agar.

But step up and cultivate things and join the real world because

these studies are baring no fruit in ilness circles.

> > > > Hello, Chronic sinusitis is fungal based…..Fungi down

> regulates

> > > the immune

> > > > system , in fact the latest drugs used to depress the

IS

> in

> > > transplant

> > > > patients are fungal based… your bacterial infection is

> > > incidental .The

> > > > hallmark of the condition is white or clear mucus..[is

> it?] …

> > When

> > > infected

> > > > mucus is coloured by dead White blood cells , that is

in a

> > normal

> > > common or

> > > > garden bacterial infection, a deep colour denotes a

robust

> > Immune

> > > response

> > > > ..when infected with fungi our response is muted hence

the

> > lack of

> > > colour ,

> > > > our IR is akikin to an allergic response to fungi

….

> > > >

> > > > Immunological down-regulation of host defences in

fungal

> > > infections.

> > > >

> > > > JW.

> > > >

> > > > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University

of

> > Oklahoma

> > > Health

> > > > Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA. juneann-

murphy@o...

> > > >

> > > > Fungal pathogens use multiple virulence factors to

cause

> > > progressive

> > > > disease. A mechanism that could be regarded as a

virulence

> > factor

> > > is the

> > > > fungal pathogen's ability to evade or down-regulate

host

> > protective

> > > > mechanisms.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 10865902 [MEDLINE]

> > > >

> > > > See also Medline 11098625, 11387665, 11437340

> > > >

> > > > Mayo Clinic researchers have proposed that most chronic

> sinus

> > > infections may

> > > > be caused by an immune system response to fungi.

> > > >

> > > > * Article in Mayo

> > > <http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/1999/7409a1.pdf>

> > > > Clinic Proceedings

> > > >

> > > > Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added

evidence

> to our

> > > thinking

> > > > that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune

> reaction to

> > > fungi in the

> > > > nose. Our original study linking chronic

rhinosinusitis to

> > fungi

> > > in the

> > > > nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic

Proceedings in

> > > September 1999,

> > > > has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in

> Europe

> > (ENT

> > > > University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

> > > >

> > > > There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic

Rochester to

> > further

> > > > investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases

of

> the

> > > respiratory

> > > > tract.

> > > > In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases

> Research

> > > Laboratory at

> > > > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white

blood

> > cells

> > > >

> > > > called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were

> > producing

> > > the kind

> > > > of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy

> people

> > did

> > > >

> > > > not react in that way. This work was presented at the

2001

> > Annual

> > > Meeting of

> > > > the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology

and

> > > >

> > > > will be published soon.

> > > >

> > > > The evidence was so convincing that the National

Institute

> of

> > > Health

> > > > (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to

further

> > > investigate the

> > > >

> > > > mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the

fungi.

> > > >

> > > > If you have chronic sinusitis—that is, a sinus

inflammation

> > that

> > > persists

> > > > for three months or longer—we recommend that you see

your

> > personal

> > > > physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist

> > > (otorhinolaryngologist) for

> > > > the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times

the

> > disease

> > > is

> > > > associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of

those

> > > associated

> > > > problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > Antibiotics don't help chronic sinusitis in the long

run

> > because

> > > they target

> > > > bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic

> sinusitis.

> > > > Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic

steroids

> > are the

> > > > mainstays of treatment today, depending on the

symptoms of

> the

> > > patient.

> > > >

> > > > Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water

nasal

> washes

> > > and mist

> > > > sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic

> > sinusitis,

> > > but do not

> > > > eliminate the inflammation.

> > > >

> > > > Dept of Otorhinolaryngology

> > > > Mayo Clinic

> > > > Rochester, Minnesota

> > > >

> > > > This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

> > > >

> > > > d fungal

> infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

> > > >

> > > > Stop press information

> > > >

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

> > > >

> > > > See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using

> antifungal

> > drugs

> > > to treat

> > > > sinusitis.

> > > >

> > > > [infections] info on sinus

> bacteria

> > > >

> > > > I need info on a bacteria or fungus that starts in

the

> sinus

> > > area and

> > > > later can be seen as bacterial tracks that run down

the

> > outside

> > > of the

> > > > cheeks. I seen a 1938 medical movie showing a person

> with

> > very

> > > clear

> > > > tracks that ran down the outside of his cheeks. I

know

> that

> > > chlamydia

> > > > bacteria can set up as cysts on the side of a persons

> head,

> > also

> > > at

> > > > the base of the spine. could this bacteria be the

cause

> of

> > these

> > > > tracks, growing down the cheeks. anyone with info or

> > comments,

> > > I need

> > > > to hear your thoughts. Jimd

> > > >

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