Re: advise--barb, eric, anybody smart or doubting :)

[Guest guest]

Borrelia are larger than many parasites so it can help. Possabbly.

> I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

who

> kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

vermox.

> And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

has

> slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

>

> Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes in

> the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

them

> more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps, symbiotic

> with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

way,

> be the niche?), who knows....

>

> These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

antibiotics.

>

> Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and I

> also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

I'm

> thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

and

> a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

myself

> with tests.

>

> TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

De-wroming medications are usually ONE DOSE..

And everything can have a side effect.

Ivermectin would be my choice of a broad sepctrum

de-wormer. That's used in the 3rd world, and praziquantel is used for

tape worm - Same chemical class that I use on my horses. But if your

considereing one- I would read up on it.

And you would be shocked if you knew how many worms

we probably have.. I know (growing up on a farm) we were de-wormed as

kids for pin worms- and I know alot of other people who were too in

the 50's. It was pretty common.

We've lived with these other organisms for eons you know.

We are their world.

Try getting a Dr. to prescribe a de-wormer though- I'm sure

it's harder than abx- they'd think you were nuts.

As far as Babesia goes- I just don't think any one really has Babesia

if they don't spike fevers. It's just too close to Malaria not to

behave the same way as far as symptoms - Just my opinion though.

Barb

> I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

who

> kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on vermox.

> And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

has

> slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

>

> Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes in

> the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding them

> more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps, symbiotic

> with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

way,

> be the niche?), who knows....

>

> These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

antibiotics.

>

> Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and I

> also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so I'm

> thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

and

> a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt myself

> with tests.

>

> TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

Studies on animals show that de-wormers don't touch Babesia

or Lyme bacteria...

B

> > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

> who

> > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

> vermox.

> > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

> has

> > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

> >

> > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

in

> > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

> them

> > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

symbiotic

> > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

> way,

> > be the niche?), who knows....

> >

> > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

> antibiotics.

> >

> > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and

I

> > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

> I'm

> > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

> and

> > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

> myself

> > with tests.

> >

> > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

It should be noted here that come of the de-wormers kill the worms by

acting on their central nervous system, and I have seen a few horses

that have side effects for a few days (sort of like ataxia) after

some de-wormers.

So do you homework, and know what to expect if you try it.

Barb

> > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

> who

> > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

> vermox.

> > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

> has

> > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

> >

> > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

in

> > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

> them

> > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

symbiotic

> > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

> way,

> > be the niche?), who knows....

> >

> > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

> antibiotics.

> >

> > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and

I

> > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

> I'm

> > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

> and

> > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

> myself

> > with tests.

> >

> > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

>As far as Babesia goes- I just don't think any one really has Babesia >if they don't spike fevers. It's just too close to Malaria not to >behave the same way as far as symptoms - Just my opinion though.Barb,

That's something I would REALLY like to know. I don't have spiking fevers yet I tested positive by PCR (MDLs) and I had drastic responses on atovaquone(mepron), artemisinin, and lariam (not all at the same time) and I even had to re-start the lariam bec I experienced a return of heart irregularities and swishiness after I stopped it for a few months.

I suspect I was infected as a child/baby and I certainly had amazing spiking fevers (above 41° C) with vomiting and delirium and lots of aches (nothing linked to respiratory infections, I had that as well).

Nelly (open to NOT having babesia)

> I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies who > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on vermox. > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th has > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.> > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes in > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding them > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps, symbiotic > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some way, > be the niche?), who knows....> > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like antibiotics.> > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and I > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so I'm > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr and > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt myself > with tests.> > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

Jill,

Who are these 4 UK lymies? I know some people who looked into tx against nematodes but I am not sure what has come of them

Nelly

[infections] advise--barb, eric, anybody smart or doubting

I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies who kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on vermox. And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th has slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes in the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding them more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps, symbiotic with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some way, be the niche?), who knows....These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like antibiotics.Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and I also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so I'm thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr and a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt myself with tests.TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

HI barb, yeah, I think they all took only one or two doses.

I know we live with most parasites, but some can be pathogenic. And

maybe there is sybmiosis with borrelia, who knows.

I'll look into the ones you mention.

I do know lymies who did not have the spiking fevers--nne

Barrett, and her daughter, both had babesia. The daughter only tested

positive after a few serial pcr's. But anyway, I'll try a fish test.

Quest tests are utterly ridiculous, if not evil imo.

> > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

> who

> > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

vermox.

> > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

> has

> > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

> >

> > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

in

> > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

them

> > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

symbiotic

> > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

> way,

> > be the niche?), who knows....

> >

> > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

> antibiotics.

> >

> > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and

I

> > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

I'm

> > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

> and

> > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

myself

> > with tests.

> >

> > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

Nelly, I didn't ask for their names or anything. I do trust the

source. It was interesting to me. They didn't take much, either.

I suspect there is symbiosis among all these organisms, esp the ones

that coexist int he tick gut.

> Jill,

>

> Who are these 4 UK lymies? I know some people who looked into tx

against nematodes but I am not sure what has come of them

>

> Nelly

> [infections] advise--barb, eric, anybody

smart or doubting

>

>

> I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

who

> kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

vermox.

> And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

has

> slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

>

> Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

in

> the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

them

> more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

symbiotic

> with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

way,

> be the niche?), who knows....

>

> These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

antibiotics.

>

> Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and

I

> also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

I'm

> thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

and

> a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

myself

> with tests.

>

> TIA from anybody

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here's the thing.

PCR/FISH

I don't know about PCR. I'ne never asked Igenex if their FISH

distinguished between malaria and Babesia- I just sort of assumed it

did - but I never researched it myself.

SMEARS (Malaria and Babs)

It's very hard to tell the difference with a stained smear between

Malaria and Babesia- even with a trained microscopist. Plus- a

person is really symptomatic if they have enough parasites in the

RBCs to bee captured in a smear.

The symptoms for uncomplicated malaria (the chronic - milder form)

are identical to Babs - and for Babs there has NEVER been a

documented chronic case except in people without a spleen. SO either

nothing is known about Babs in humans and the tests suck - or these

Babs WBs tests are cross reacting with something else.

There has never been a western blot for Malaria- but they're

working on it, and lo and behold- one of the bands (band 36/37 Kda)

is produced in the human against a specific life-stage of the Malaria

parasite. And these bands along with 4 others used to be on the Babs

WB test- and 36/37 kDa are the bands I tested positive for with

Babesia. No lab is doing western blot for Babs now- but I haven't

found out why.

I figure for me- spleenless that I am- and thought to have been

infected by transfusion- I can't be sure I had Babs- maybe it was

uncomplicated Malaria- 5 day ant-Malaria treatment seemed to really

do the trick for me.. I just don't know - My symptoms were periodic

fever- and documented destroyed RBCs , and enemia - indistinguishable

from Malaria without a smear. I've had enlarged liver, and lymph

nodes in the past.. so I'll never be sure. I am sure it's gone

though.

Barb

> > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies

> who

> > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

vermox.

> > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th

> has

> > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

> >

> > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

in

> > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

them

> > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

symbiotic

> > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

> way,

> > be the niche?), who knows....

> >

> > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

> antibiotics.

> >

> > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and

I

> > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is

> > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia

> > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

I'm

> > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr

> and

> > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

myself

> > with tests.

> >

> > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

Thats a good point, maybe you had malaria all along.

Its all very confusing.

Babs can change its antigens too, apparently, its a bit of a stealth

organism.

The FISH picks up RNA supposedly. The PCR, it has to get the right

blood sample.

If only 1% of red blood cells are infected you may miss it on a

parasite smear, but that's enough to cause you symptoms--and in such

patients, apparently a few cases that tested, their bone marrow had

20% infected.

> > > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different

lymies

> > who

> > > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on

> vermox.

> > > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The

4th

> > has

> > > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.

> > >

> > > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes

> in

> > > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding

> them

> > > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps,

> symbiotic

> > > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some

> > way,

> > > be the niche?), who knows....

> > >

> > > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like

> > antibiotics.

> > >

> > > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative,

and

> I

> > > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else

is

> > > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill.

Babesia

> > > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so

> I'm

> > > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial

pcr

> > and

> > > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt

> myself

> > > with tests.

> > >

> > > TIA from anybody

[Guest guest]

Thanks Barb, but that leaves me just as unsure as before re my own situation.

I think I have a spleen,

A few years before I became sick I lived in a highly endemic areas for malaria (Papua New Guinea, living with Papuans in several villages bitten by stacks of things, inc mosquitoes, sandflies, ticks, fell ill with very high temp, very sore kidney area, muscle aches, vomiting, had to leave PNG, had a repeat bout a few weeks later in Sydney Australia (non malaria zone), then same thing happened a couple of years later while I was living in a Mexican village in the South of Mexico (not known as highly endemic for malaria but probably not totally malaria-free). I never found out what I had, but I was treated with IM penicillin and survived.

Malaria was not considered because I had a sore throat as well as the very high fever. But who knows?!

>SMEARS (Malaria and Babs)>It's very hard to tell the difference with a stained smear between >Malaria and Babesia- even with a trained microscopist. Plus- a >person is really symptomatic if they have enough parasites in the >RBCs to be captured in a smear.

That's what doctors usually say, but "being really symptomatic" may take several forms, and fever might not be one of the symptoms of chronic Babesia.

It is well documented that Babesia can persist with very low levels of parasitemia (and probably a large spectrum of manifestations).

>The symptoms for uncomplicated malaria (the chronic - milder form) >are identical to Babs - and for Babs there has NEVER been a >documented chronic case except in people without a spleen. SO either >nothing is known about Babs in humans and the tests suck - or these >Babs WBs tests are cross reacting with something else.

Hardly any studies of human babesiosis and even fewer bothering to look at the possibility of a persisting infection in humans BUT plenty of studies of persisting Babesia in dogs, horses, cows, sheep etc.

I am really surprised to read you being so sure that Babesia can NOT be chronic, can NOT exist if no spiking fevers.

On the other hand I agree, Babs WBs could easily be reacting to smthng else, but most people who have a dx of babesia have not had WBs, they have usually had PCRs or smears.

There are so many different varieties of babs, and so little is known.

A recent study on ticks in France showed that it is VERY common in ticks, yet it is hardly being looked into as far as a potential pathogen outside of fulminant presentations of Babesia divergens or in spleenless people.

It might like toxoplasmosis or cerebral malaria head for the brain or other organs and behave in ways that have not been described at all.

All I have to go by is:

multiple tick-bites, positive PCR for Babs, (but also living in malaria endemic places), signs of hemolysis in serum on several occasions, thrombocytopenia, neutropenia, low ferritin, low RBC but no real anemia,

very bad on-going headaches, heart all over the place, heat-waves in head and spine,

amazingly strong response to antimalarial-type treatments (including artemisinin): massive increase in inflammation in brain, head, scalp, eyes, neck, ears, going bananas, suicidal, yet gradual improvements in major heart/neuro symptoms on atovaquone, lariam, and artemisinin and my relapsing off these drug.

So...? I don't know

Nelly

[infections] Re: advise--barb, eric, anybody smart or doubting

Here's the thing.PCR/FISHI don't know about PCR. I'ne never asked Igenex if their FISH distinguished between malaria and Babesia- I just sort of assumed it did - but I never researched it myself.SMEARS (Malaria and Babs)It's very hard to tell the difference with a stained smear between Malaria and Babesia- even with a trained microscopist. Plus- a person is really symptomatic if they have enough parasites in the RBCs to bee captured in a smear. The symptoms for uncomplicated malaria (the chronic - milder form) are identical to Babs - and for Babs there has NEVER been a documented chronic case except in people without a spleen. SO either nothing is known about Babs in humans and the tests suck - or these Babs WBs tests are cross reacting with something else. There has never been a western blot for Malaria- but they're working on it, and lo and behold- one of the bands (band 36/37 Kda) is produced in the human against a specific life-stage of the Malaria parasite. And these bands along with 4 others used to be on the Babs WB test- and 36/37 kDa are the bands I tested positive for with Babesia. No lab is doing western blot for Babs now- but I haven't found out why. I figure for me- spleenless that I am- and thought to have been infected by transfusion- I can't be sure I had Babs- maybe it wasuncomplicated Malaria- 5 day ant-Malaria treatment seemed to really do the trick for me.. I just don't know - My symptoms were periodic fever- and documented destroyed RBCs , and enemia - indistinguishablefrom Malaria without a smear. I've had enlarged liver, and lymph nodes in the past.. so I'll never be sure. I am sure it's gone though.Barb> > I've talked to someone in England who knows four different lymies > who > > kept relapsing after going off antibiotics, who got well on vermox. > > And not even that much of vermox. 3 are completely well. The 4th > has > > slight relapse symptoms but not too bad.> > > > Anybody have thoughts about this? Burgdorfer did find nematodes in > > the mid 80's in the tickguts and other researchers are finding them > > more often now. Whether they are pathogenic, or perhaps, symbiotic > > with borrelia as some think (could they harbor borrelia in some > way, > > be the niche?), who knows....> > > > These drugs probably don't give fungal side effects like > antibiotics.> > > > Barb...where did you test for babesia? My quest is negative, and I > > also never had spiking fevers, YET I know that something else is > > going on besides lyme or I would not have gotten so ill. Babesia > > being epidemic in CT where I was bit is the likely candidate so I'm > > thinking of paying for Igenex Fish...tho I understand serial pcr > and > > a bunch of them is the best way but I don't want to bankrupt myself > > with tests.> > > > TIA from anybody