Re: Macrodantin, MS and Bacterial loads

[Guest guest]

Nelly-

You are correct, I meant anaerobic, sorry. My

understanding in Lyme's is that the Flagyl is intended

to kill it in the cystic (and thus anaerobic form, not

in the spirochete form which is replicating and thus

effected by abx. So the principle is identical to the

Cpn regime. The science behind the Cpn seems much

clearer and more thorough to me, however, with

Stratton's group developing some high level testing

procedures to actually and accurately pick up the

organism in it's different phases, screen the

medications most effective against the organism/phase

you have, and be able to accurately assess the

treatment success. It';s a brilliant, painstaking

piece of science, down to having to develop a way to

test and clear the stock mice cells used in the

testing procedures, a high percentage of these

standard lab cell lines having proved by Stratton's

team to be already contaminated with Cpn, and thus

need to be rendered pure stock for accuracy in the

tests.

Makes you wonder how much contamination is checkied

for in other tests. Although these tests are not yet

to market, they are far more comprehensive than

anything yet available for Lymes, more's the pity.

From my sampling of reports on the MS forum using

Wheldon's regime, and reports he has on his website

and made to me by emal, there is a wide range of

apparent bacterial loads. For many MS patients the

die-off response is strongly neurological in nature:

anxiety, balance and cognition problems,

disorientation, severe fatigue. Sounds bad enough to

me! He is very cautious about the ramping up of abx

and flagyl doses, very much based on toleration, and

that this is is a 2 year process until you get to the

point to go on shorter, once monthly courses for a

period.

I " m tolerating the Tinidazole well so far, and am

having less peculiar and debilitating herx. Hoping the

Entreklenz will limit thie even more. The addition of

no-flush niacin adds even more anti-cryptic phase

effect.

Tony- You are right that Macrobid is not considered an

effective abx, even in the urinary tract, compared to

others. The key here is that Stratton found that it

was effective against the cryptic form of Cpn-- a new

finding since it has never been tested for such

before-- and thus gives an alternative if the

imadazols can't be tolerated. Stratton clearly doesn't

prefer it, I haven't gotten a response yet as to why.

Jim

From: " Nelly Pointis " <janel@...>

Subject: Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

Jim,

PS:

I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

is probably not

dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

the loads we,

people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

else but pbbly incl

Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

die-offs are more

easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

Nelly

> Barb

> Macrodantin is a useless antibiotic because it does

nothing in

the

> body. It kills bugs in the urine only.It fails to

change any aspect

> of systemic disease. I did notice that they had this

antimicrobial

> cream for external application whihc is only

available in the vet

> circles nowadays.

> I absolutely feel this drug is unbeleivable because

it keeps

killing

> bacteria which other abx don't touch.Unfortunately

in blood plasma

> USELESS - NO EFFECT on bacteria.

> tony

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking they will break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of them outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures), but most of the "killing" is thought to be through the use of the other abx when the spiros are in spiro form.

(see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to use another abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their replicating/invading forms after the metronidazole/tinidazole has been at work on the cysts).

So the end result is very similar but their thinking seems to differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to release their spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas Stratton/Wheldon seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn while they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms so that the imidazole will kill it.

Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute the majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking the myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial load to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many people with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk and "auto-immuning", but just to "appropriate inflammation (?)" when confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking outloud, pure speculation.

Also the "herx reactions" described by Wheldon are fairly short lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as the ones experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when taking imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds of treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of tinidazoles) and I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but after 6 years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a brain-exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer when on imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

Nelly

Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. PneumoniaJim,PS:I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MSis probably not dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads asthe loads we, people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows whatelse but pbbly incl Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterialdie-offs are more easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feelingNelly

[Guest guest]

Does anyone recall if there's any evidence that Flagyl might be

effective against other organisms besides the cyst form of ketes?

I'm finally seeing my doc next week. What I'd really like to ask for

is the HCQ, but I'm afraid of that because it's a quinolone and I've

already got some serious tendonitis going on. I'm wondering if

perhaps Flagyl could help.

I've been feeling remarkably good the last few weeks. My fatigue

started to really turn around after about 6 weeks on the zith and

diflucan. It's still going strong, but I don't want to sit back and

wait for the bugs to turn, and the zith to become ineffective.

Trying to think of some add-ins or alternative drugs that might help

tip the scale in my favor.

Tony, what's your favorite non-i.v. drug right now? I'm resistant to

so many, but can't recall if I'm resistant to penicillin or not.

That's the one drug I got a lot of as a very young child (shots),

along with codeine. If I'm not resistant, I'd be happy to give it a

try, since I'm hearing from you (and now the medicos are getting on

board), that penicillin might be one of the better drugs that

shouldn't be overlooked. Not to mention, cheap!

penny

> Jim,

>

> In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking they will

break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of them

outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures), but most

of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of the other abx

when the spiros are in spiro form.

>

> (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to use another

abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

replicating/invading forms after the metronidazole/tinidazole has

been at work on the cysts).

>

> So the end result is very similar but their thinking seems to

differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to release their

spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas Stratton/Wheldon

seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn while

they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms so that

the imidazole will kill it.

>

> Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute the

majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking the

myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial load

to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many people

with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk

and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation (?) " when

confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking outloud,

pure speculation.

>

> Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are fairly short

lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as the ones

experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when taking

imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds of

treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of tinidazoles) and

I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but after 6

years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a brain-

exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer when on

imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

>

> Nelly

>

> Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

>

> Jim,

>

> PS:

>

> I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> is probably not

> dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> the loads we,

> people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> else but pbbly incl

> Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> die-offs are more

> easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

>

> Nelly

[Guest guest]

Penny:

HCQ is not in the same chemical class as Flagyl and I've

never heard tendon pain being a side effect of HCQ..

Check it out before you write it off.

Barb

> > Jim,

> >

> > In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking they will

> break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of them

> outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures), but most

> of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of the other abx

> when the spiros are in spiro form.

> >

> > (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to use

another

> abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

> replicating/invading forms after the metronidazole/tinidazole has

> been at work on the cysts).

> >

> > So the end result is very similar but their thinking seems to

> differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to release their

> spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas Stratton/Wheldon

> seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn while

> they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms so that

> the imidazole will kill it.

> >

> > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute the

> majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking the

> myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial load

> to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many people

> with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk

> and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation (?) "

when

> confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking outloud,

> pure speculation.

> >

> > Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are fairly short

> lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as the ones

> experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when taking

> imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds of

> treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of tinidazoles) and

> I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but after 6

> years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a brain-

> exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer when on

> imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

> >

> > Nelly

> >

> > Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> >

> > Jim,

> >

> > PS:

> >

> > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> > is probably not

> > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> > the loads we,

> > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> > else but pbbly incl

> > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> > die-offs are more

> > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> >

> > Nelly

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know, but I was all ready to get some, then did some looking

around and read that it was a member of the quinolone family. Is

this wrong? It is anti-malaria, right?

I'm thinking I'll ask for both, and maybe do short courses of the

HCQ (if it IS a quinolone). See how I go. I really don't want to

make my shoulders worse than they are.

penny

> Penny:

> HCQ is not in the same chemical class as Flagyl and I've

> never heard tendon pain being a side effect of HCQ..

>

> Check it out before you write it off.

>

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

> Does anyone recall if there's any evidence that Flagyl might be

> effective against other organisms besides the cyst form of ketes?

Never mind, I just re-read Nelly's post on the subject (which I had

emailed myself to read later, but immediately forgot), and I can see

how Flagyl (metronidazole) might be a help against other bugs.

thanks,

penny

[Guest guest]

Penny

It's cheap, it was last centuries wonder drug and it FIXED as

opposed to manage.My doctor was adamant he didn't like giving people

amoxacillin and preffered to give penicillin. I can understand why

now penicillin and tetracycline are both IV drugs and combos' of

IV's have cured some serious infections, amoxacillin based

antibiotics are possably management drugs that are half assed at

killing established bugs.They basically don't rely on amoxacillin

based antibiotics in IV treatment, possably due to the poor

performance of amoxacillin and augmentin in IV form.The problem with

using penicillin even in your own case is they will alway's

UNDERMEDICATE YOU.I recall feeling great for an hour or two then

waiting 4 more through pain to get a couple of hours of relief.I was

using the usual 500 mg 4 times a day,and possably it was the 250 mg,

this obviously hasn;'t had a brilliant success rate so it's not used

often. The irony is it's non toxic and has been used upto 80 grams a

day in the seriously ill.When we are at the 2 grams a day end we may

need 10 grams a day to be serious about taking care of anything.What

also motivates me is there's no way you can cure anyone of anything

unless this penicillin can keep knocking down the invisable

infections, it's that thought that ex-plains why some german duc was

having success with IV penicillin in germany, unfortuantely his

patients relapsed which is obvious to us too short a treatment will

guarantee this and if your sinus scans don't go back to almost

normal and your sinus swabs have heavy growths...your on your way

back.

So yes do try the penicillin and discuss with your doctor going to

the top end of dosing.All I can say is it definately is a wonderfull

antibiotic and I am so disappointed that I didn't play around with

it more believeng the crap that's fed to us about cell wall

deficient, bacteria using backstroke techniques to go undetected,

male bacteria hiding in female bacteria handbags.Hello these

infections respond a certain way and the patterns aren't anything

like what we have been fed. My friends do very well on

cephalasporins, so that puts to bed the notion it's a cell wall

deficient bascterium, unfortunately the medical literature doesn't

hold the cephalasporins above the penicillins as a cure, so having

success with cephalasporins needs better interpretation. The spastic

end of all this is the use of ceftriaxone, it fixes no-one I know of

it can give you a tip by giving you a few good days and turning.

Many of my friends have had some success with vanco 1 week seems the

normal time frame and then it also became useless in many, one

friend did very well because her ID used 2 drugs, unisyn pumping

hard 4 times a day and vanco twice a day.

It's these patterns of antibiotic usage that forge my opinions about

what we are dealing with so I am basically fixated at the repair end

of the job as opposed to playing spot the pathogen and buying into

the regurgitated literature as to this does with that.

The other troubling thought is the low dose end of the scale which

is why we are all in trouble today, UNDERMEDICATING. The smart

imbeciles in europe that used tarello's arsenic therapy all thought

we better ramp up the arsenic slowly.Unfortunately tarello is at the

20 times less dose than chaemotherapeutic usage.so when you estabish

it will kill alot of bugs get in and do it don't tease bacteria they

alway's win.This expalins why going from sensitive to a therapy that

reverts quickly to a resistant is doomed to failure. With the

tetracyclines they keep on killing but goiing from a 40mm clearance

zone to a 5mm clearance zone makes alkl the difference in how you

feel.

tony

> > Jim,

> >

> > In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking they will

> break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of them

> outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures), but most

> of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of the other abx

> when the spiros are in spiro form.

> >

> > (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to use

another

> abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

> replicating/invading forms after the metronidazole/tinidazole has

> been at work on the cysts).

> >

> > So the end result is very similar but their thinking seems to

> differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to release their

> spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas Stratton/Wheldon

> seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn while

> they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms so that

> the imidazole will kill it.

> >

> > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute the

> majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking the

> myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial

load

> to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many people

> with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk

> and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation (?) "

when

> confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking outloud,

> pure speculation.

> >

> > Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are fairly short

> lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as the ones

> experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when taking

> imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds of

> treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of tinidazoles)

and

> I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but after 6

> years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a brain-

> exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer when on

> imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

> >

> > Nelly

> >

> > Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> >

> > Jim,

> >

> > PS:

> >

> > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> > is probably not

> > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> > the loads we,

> > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> > else but pbbly incl

> > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> > die-offs are more

> > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> >

> > Nelly

[Guest guest]

And then there are those of us who are allergic to penicillin and go into anaphylactic shock when given even a small amount of penicillin. What can we do?

Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia> > > > Jim,> > > > PS:> > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS> > is probably not > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as> > the loads we, > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what> > else but pbbly incl > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial> > die-offs are more > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling> > > > Nelly

[Guest guest]

GET SENSITIZED TO IT.There's something they do to fix this problem I

just can't recall what the approach is.Possably like an allergy

treatment- yet practised in hoospital.

> > > Jim,

> > >

> > > In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking they

will

> > break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of

them

> > outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures), but

most

> > of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of the other

abx

> > when the spiros are in spiro form.

> > >

> > > (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to use

> another

> > abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

> > replicating/invading forms after the metronidazole/tinidazole

has

> > been at work on the cysts).

> > >

> > > So the end result is very similar but their thinking seems

to

> > differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to release

their

> > spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas

Stratton/Wheldon

> > seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn

while

> > they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms so

that

> > the imidazole will kill it.

> > >

> > > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can attribute

the

> > majority of their symptoms to the immune response attacking

the

> > myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high bacterial

> load

> > to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many

people

> > with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going beserk

> > and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation

(?) "

> when

> > confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking

outloud,

> > pure speculation.

> > >

> > > Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are fairly

short

> > lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as the

ones

> > experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when taking

> > imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds of

> > treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of

tinidazoles)

> and

> > I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but after

6

> > years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a brain-

> > exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer

when on

> > imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

> > >

> > > Nelly

> > >

> > > Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> > >

> > > Jim,

> > >

> > > PS:

> > >

> > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> > > is probably not

> > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> > > the loads we,

> > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> > > else but pbbly incl

> > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> > > die-offs are more

> > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> > >

> > > Nelly

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony. In a perfect world, I could ask my knowledgeable, friendly, skilled and up-to-date physician about this and he would know, and my local hospital would be able to do it. Unfortunately, I don't live in a perfect world. My doctor knows nothing about this and my local hospital left me for 12 hours sitting in a chair in their main waiting room with all three bones in my ankle broken. They do not know and they do not care. And I do know that the last time I had penicillin, I broke out in a full body rash and went into anaphylactic shock and almost died. I'm not eager to repeat that experience.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness in replying, but I am not really in a position to follow your advice.

Thanks anyway.

Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia> > > > > > Jim,> > > > > > PS:> > > > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS> > > is probably not > > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as> > > the loads we, > > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what> > > else but pbbly incl > > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial> > > die-offs are more > > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling> > > > > > Nelly> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

[Guest guest]

pATRICIA

I'm hearing you on how pathetic the system is, I'm just recalling

reading somewhere how they fix that allergy and alway's thought if

you fixed that you may progress with your ilness in

general.Switching the immune system on to bacteria that are sitting

in harmony with it, may help your whole health picture.-I have had

the healthier memebers of society(friends) that do have allergfy

issues and they swear by going and getting desensitized there life

is great for the next couple of years.

tony

-- In infections , " "

<retractap@b...> wrote:

> Thanks, Tony. In a perfect world, I could ask my knowledgeable,

friendly, skilled and up-to-date physician about this and he would

know, and my local hospital would be able to do it. Unfortunately,

I don't live in a perfect world. My doctor knows nothing about this

and my local hospital left me for 12 hours sitting in a chair in

their main waiting room with all three bones in my ankle broken.

They do not know and they do not care. And I do know that the last

time I had penicillin, I broke out in a full body rash and went into

anaphylactic shock and almost died. I'm not eager to repeat that

experience.

> I appreciate your thoughtfulness in replying, but I am not really

in a position to follow your advice.

>

> Thanks anyway.

>

>

> Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> > > >

> > > > Jim,

> > > >

> > > > PS:

> > > >

> > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> > > > is probably not

> > > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> > > > the loads we,

> > > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> > > > else but pbbly incl

> > > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> > > > die-offs are more

> > > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> > > >

> > > > Nelly

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------------------------------------

----

> -----------

> >

[Guest guest]

, I've read numerous times of drugs that were designed for

people who are allergic to penicillin. I'm sure if you do a search...

It's like me and minocycline. Wish I could take it but no way...

penny

> > > > Jim,

> > > >

> > > > In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole thinking

they

> will

> > > break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying SOME of

> them

> > > outright, depending on the age of the cystic structures),

but

> most

> > > of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of the

other

> abx

> > > when the spiros are in spiro form.

> > > >

> > > > (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need to

use

> > another

> > > abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

> > > replicating/invading forms after the

metronidazole/tinidazole

> has

> > > been at work on the cysts).

> > > >

> > > > So the end result is very similar but their thinking

seems

> to

> > > differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to

release

> their

> > > spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas

> Stratton/Wheldon

> > > seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the Cpn

> while

> > > they are replicating and drive them into cryptic forms

so

> that

> > > the imidazole will kill it.

> > > >

> > > > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can

attribute

> the

> > > majority of their symptoms to the immune response

attacking

> the

> > > myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high

bacterial

> > load

> > > to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of many

> people

> > > with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going

beserk

> > > and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate inflammation

> (?) "

> > when

> > > confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just thinking

> outloud,

> > > pure speculation.

> > > >

> > > > Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are

fairly

> short

> > > lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe as

the

> ones

> > > experienced by some TBD patients (myself included) when

taking

> > > imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all kinds

of

> > > treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of

> tinidazoles)

> > and

> > > I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly) but

after

> 6

> > > years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a

brain-

> > > exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems clearer

> when on

> > > imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

> > > >

> > > > Nelly

> > > >

> > > > Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> > > >

> > > > Jim,

> > > >

> > > > PS:

> > > >

> > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS

> > > > is probably not

> > > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as

> > > > the loads we,

> > > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what

> > > > else but pbbly incl

> > > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial

> > > > die-offs are more

> > > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> > > >

> > > > Nelly

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------------------------------------

----

> -----------

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks again, Tony. My brother had allergies and he worked with a physician who specialize sin allergies and was able to become desensitized from a lot of things he was allergic to--but not penicillin. When he was seeing this doctor, there was no way to desensitize to penicillin. Also, most doctors won't work with penicillin because it is so easy to kill the patient by giving even a tiny dose of it to an allergic patient.

If something has now been developed with penicillin, it is recent. No doctors I know of are aware of it.

I do appreciate your thoughtfulness. I think the fact that penicillin has not been in general use for the past 50 or so years may be part of the reason it is still very effective for people who are able to use it (no chance for tolerance to develop so it doesn't work.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia> > > > > > > > Jim,> > > > > > > > PS:> > > > > > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people with MS> > > > is probably not > > > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial loads as> > > > the loads we, > > > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows what> > > > else but pbbly incl > > > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with bacterial> > > > die-offs are more > > > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling> > > > > > > > Nelly> > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------> -----------> >

[Guest guest]

It's funny how my cousin who suffers strep throat is also penicillin

allergic yet after having a shot in the arse by accident he is no

longer allergic.He now alway's swears by how important itr is for

him to get those shots because his recovery is remarkable as opposed

to having a miserable week.

tony

> > > > > Jim,

> > > > >

> > > > > In Lyme circles, LLMDs use Flagyl/tinidazole

thinking

> they

> > will

> > > > break the cystic forms open (as well as destroying

SOME of

> > them

> > > > outright, depending on the age of the cystic

structures),

> but

> > most

> > > > of the " killing " is thought to be through the use of

the

> other

> > abx

> > > > when the spiros are in spiro form.

> > > > >

> > > > > (see the studies by the Brorsons, they say you need

to

> use

> > > another

> > > > abx, like a macrolide, to kill the spiros in their

> > > > replicating/invading forms after the

> metronidazole/tinidazole

> > has

> > > > been at work on the cysts).

> > > > >

> > > > > So the end result is very similar but their thinking

> seems

> > to

> > > > differ, ie LLMDs think you need to get the cysts to

> release

> > their

> > > > spiros so that they can be got at by abx whereas

> > Stratton/Wheldon

> > > > seem to say: use the cycline + macrolide to a) get the

Cpn

> > while

> > > > they are replicating and drive them into cryptic

forms

> so

> > that

> > > > the imidazole will kill it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: bacterial loads, I suspect the MS patients can

> attribute

> > the

> > > > majority of their symptoms to the immune response

> attacking

> > the

> > > > myelin sheath (not necessary for them to have a high

> bacterial

> > > load

> > > > to have devastating symptoms) whereas the symptoms of

many

> > people

> > > > with TBDs might not be due to their immune syst going

> beserk

> > > > and " auto-immuning " , but just to " appropriate

inflammation

> > (?) "

> > > when

> > > > confronted to a very high bacterial load. Just

thinking

> > outloud,

> > > > pure speculation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also the " herx reactions " described by Wheldon are

> fairly

> > short

> > > > lived and from what I have read nowhere near as severe

as

> the

> > ones

> > > > experienced by some TBD patients (myself included)

when

> taking

> > > > imidazoles. I have been getting at my bugs with all

kinds

> of

> > > > treatments for the last 6 years (including tons of

> > tinidazoles)

> > > and

> > > > I sometimes think I am getting places (very slowly)

but

> after

> > 6

> > > > years 2 days of tinidazole has me on the floor with a

> brain-

> > > > exploding headache/eyeache. But brain always seems

clearer

> > when on

> > > > imidazoles even if physical head up shit creek )

> > > > >

> > > > > Nelly

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Nelly & Penny re: C. Pneumonia

> > > > >

> > > > > Jim,

> > > > >

> > > > > PS:

> > > > >

> > > > > I think Wheldon when dealing with people

with MS

> > > > > is probably not

> > > > > dealing with people with such HEAVY bacterial

loads as

> > > > > the loads we,

> > > > > people infected with TBDs (as well as God knows

what

> > > > > else but pbbly incl

> > > > > Cpn) are dealing with. So the problems with

bacterial

> > > > > die-offs are more

> > > > > easily dealt with, maybe, just my gut feeling

> > > > >

> > > > > Nelly

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------

----

> ----

> > -----------

> > >