Guest guest Posted January 4, 2002 Report Share Posted January 4, 2002 Thanks, Dan, I was afraid to open my mail..... Very little of what I say or think is accepted, and that is OK. I just find too much piety, and high mindedness sometimes in a " wish " without discernment. Human beings are what they are, and a long way from consciousness in general....there are a few.... Toni Dan Watkins wrote: > Dear Toni, > > Well, you know that I will not scream at you ;-). > > > > A noble speech and a pious one. > > By the dog, Toni, that is well said. > > Best regards, > > Dan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2002 Report Share Posted January 4, 2002 Dan and Toni Funny. I didn't read Jung as saying that at all. What I read him as saying was that wars are created and acted out within the psyche, that their root is in the awareness or unawareness one allows the psyche. You guys seem to love the idea that there aint much; 'us guys' seem to love the idea that if we get down to it now there could be one helluva lot more. Perhaps this is the difference between the fatalist and karmaist vision: fatalists look at 'reality' and say: 'You SEE?'. Karmaists look at the flow and say: 'I'm not sure we're seeing very clearly'... This much I can say: shit definitely happens. So does everything else. Depends on what you think is important (and, judging by your coyness with 'dirty' language, I'd guess... well - I won't guess. How's that?) War is innate to human ignorance as are greed and hatred, pride and envy. This is absolutely certain. But - simultaneous with our ignorance, there is our enlightened nature, as sure as the sun shines at midnight, as sure as the heads of the coin are dragging round the tails... and even more so. That one choose to use ignorance as one's 'rule of thumb' (you know? when you hold up your thumb against infinity and say 'This shall be the rule!') is fine as long as one imagines oneself a toy of the universe. When one enters the path - any path - the rule becomes a little subtler. And if one is to open one's mouth, then one should be very careful what one's going to let come out of it. If you read in terms only of what you already know or what chimes with your experience, you are reading to prove you know. The texts left by the great men of the past are, in fact, shit paper. Their sole purpose is so that YOU - personally - will learn to wipe your own arse. They're not for proving you right: they're for proving you wrong. For proving that however clever you think you are, there's at least another milimetre to go. And since less than a hair's breadth is what sets heaven and earth a part, that's quite a walk, no matter who you are. You want war? You think war is justifiable and natural and just?... Great. You will forgive me if I don't. You will also forgive if I say that this list is not entering into that discussion again. Thank you. m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2002 Report Share Posted January 4, 2002 Material in chronological order 1/3/02 4:01 PM Ghazaleh@... wrote: > " The great war has taught practically everybody that the things that have [...] >~~C.G. Jung >From " The Psychology of Kundalini Yoga, " p. 46 > [...] What is citation in Collected Works, English? Thank you, = _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ = || Lehnert N. Riegel || || Fountain Valley, California USA || || 33°41'N 117°57'W || || lehnert@... || || UT + 7/8 (standard/daylight savings time) || = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2002 Report Share Posted January 5, 2002 In a message dated 1/5/2002 6:54:53 AM Central Standard Time, interiorsilence@... writes: > Is psyche thought? Does psyche include no thought? Yup. Namasté Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2002 Report Share Posted January 5, 2002 I would say that the true essential self is beyond the noisy psyche yet includes psyche. Seek for peace within forms (even psychic) & be disappointed. This is why meditators work to become aware of a still silent state of consciousness. 'One should get the essence out of things and let the things themselves alone' Meister Eckhart 'Thou hast run after form, O ill informed one, Wherefore thou lackest the Fruit of the tree of substance. Sometimes it is named tree, sometimes sun, sometimes lake, and sometimes cloud. 'Tis one though it has A thousand manifestations. It's least manifestation Is eternal life! The names that fit that one are countless .. He has thousands of names, Yet is One .. Answering to all of His descriptions, yet indescribable. Everyone who seeks names, If he is a man of credulity, Like thee, Remains hopeless And frustrated of his aim. Why cleavest thou To this mere name of tree, So that thou art Utterly balked & disappointed? Pass over names And look to qualities, So that qualities may lead thee To essence!' Rumi Is psyche thought? Does psyche include no thought? Wondering, Colette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2002 Report Share Posted January 5, 2002 A powerful post reminding us that ignorance is not all we are. Thankyou Mike for pointing us in the direction of Buddha nature. A very powerful post Mike. Thankyou very much. Col > War is innate to human ignorance as are greed and hatred, pride > and envy. This is absolutely certain. But - simultaneous with our > ignorance, there is our enlightened nature, as sure as the sun > shines at midnight, as sure as the heads of the coin are dragging > round the tails... and even more so. That one choose to use > ignorance as one's 'rule of thumb' (you know? when you hold up > your thumb against infinity and say 'This shall be the rule!') is fine > as long as one imagines oneself a toy of the universe. When one > enters the path - any path - the rule becomes a little subtler. And if > one is to open one's mouth, then one should be very careful what > one's going to let come out of it. > If you read in terms only of what you already know or what chimes > with your experience, you are reading to prove you know. The texts > left by the great men of the past are, in fact, shit paper. Their sole > purpose is so that YOU - personally - will learn to wipe your own > arse. They're not for proving you right: they're for proving you > wrong. For proving that however clever you think you are, there's at > least another milimetre to go. And since less than a hair's breadth > is what sets heaven and earth a part, that's quite a walk, no matter > who you are.> > m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2002 Report Share Posted January 5, 2002 > It is devoutly to be wished. But, I might add my how many? for how long? and how > devoutly.? It will be a long way to consciousness necessary for this to happen, > in my opinion. > Toni > Ya know what, we don't have to go anywhere. Peace is in the present. Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2002 Report Share Posted January 5, 2002 Dear Mike; you said: " You want war? You think war is justifiable and natural and just?... Great. You will forgive me if I don't. " Hard to forgive you for turning my words around to indicate I want wars. Please show me where anything I said indicates that I want War. To admit something seems real does not in anyway indicate it is one's preference. An observation of how one sees things does not mean an approval of those things, only an admittance that they exist. As far as 'dirty language...I apologize for the " shi.. " in my post. It will not happen again. My only excuse was that it was a common expression. Sorry. You said: " You will also forgive if I say that this list is not entering into that discussion again. " No need to answer, Mike on the list. I agree with you that the list is not to go through this again. I don't think, however,that you can cast aspersions on another and make it the last word. In all fairness I could not let your logic (?) go uncontested. I rather think your moment of anger is past, and you see the insult was unwarranted. I am not fighting, nor arguing . I made a statement of my thoughts on the subject. You should not assume what is not there. Jung seems to be open to interpretation, and I think mine was close. But, be that as it may...no argument ,I quite the subject. I did say,I knew what a reaction I would get. This was not worthy of you, Mike Toni cloudhand@... wrote: > Dan and Toni > > Funny. I didn't read Jung as saying that at all. What I read him as > saying was that wars are created and acted out within the psyche, > that their root is in the awareness or unawareness one allows the > psyche. You guys seem to love the idea that there aint much; 'us > guys' seem to love the idea that if we get down to it now there could > be one helluva lot more. Perhaps this is the difference between the > fatalist and karmaist vision: fatalists look at 'reality' and say: 'You > SEE?'. Karmaists look at the flow and say: 'I'm not sure we're > seeing very clearly'... > This much I can say: shit definitely happens. So does everything > else. Depends on what you think is important (and, judging by your > coyness with 'dirty' language, I'd guess... well - I won't guess. How's > that?) > War is innate to human ignorance as are greed and hatred, pride > and envy. This is absolutely certain. But - simultaneous with our > ignorance, there is our enlightened nature, as sure as the sun > shines at midnight, as sure as the heads of the coin are dragging > round the tails... and even more so. That one choose to use > ignorance as one's 'rule of thumb' (you know? when you hold up > your thumb against infinity and say 'This shall be the rule!') is fine > as long as one imagines oneself a toy of the universe. When one > enters the path - any path - the rule becomes a little subtler. And if > one is to open one's mouth, then one should be very careful what > one's going to let come out of it. > If you read in terms only of what you already know or what chimes > with your experience, you are reading to prove you know. The texts > left by the great men of the past are, in fact, shit paper. Their sole > purpose is so that YOU - personally - will learn to wipe your own > arse. They're not for proving you right: they're for proving you > wrong. For proving that however clever you think you are, there's at > least another milimetre to go. And since less than a hair's breadth > is what sets heaven and earth a part, that's quite a walk, no matter > who you are. > . > > Thank you. > > m > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Dear Mike, You wrote: > >I somehow don't think bombing Afghanis - or > creating martyrs out of fundamentalists - is it. I sometimes think that we must come from two different worlds - I mean this almost literally. In my " real life " - i.e., in face-to-face interactions, and apart from newspapers and so forth - I have heard literally no one suggest that the Islamic fundamentalists in question are in any way martyrs. There appears to be a great divide in the world, which we see writ small on this list. Regards, Best regards, Dan Watkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Dan You obviously misunderstood. I don't mean terrorists ARE martyrs: I mean that dead terrorists BECOME martyrs to the enflamed fundamentalist spirit. Clearer? That we come from different planets I doubt strenuously. That we read our lives in it almost entirely differently is neither here nor there... > > You wrote: > > > >I somehow don't think bombing Afghanis - or > > creating martyrs out of fundamentalists - is it. > > I sometimes think that we must come from two different worlds - I mean > this almost literally. In my " real life " - i.e., in face-to-face > interactions, and apart from newspapers and so forth - I have heard > literally no one suggest that the Islamic fundamentalists in question > are in any way martyrs. > > There appears to be a great divide in the world, which we see writ small > on this list. > > Regards, > > Best regards, > > Dan Watkins > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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