Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Seay wrote: <<<Well, despite my criticisms of the " hype " , there is a good reason for this return to BW exercises. A lot of us are getting older (I am 46) and training with weights is causing a lot of injuries. I try my best to perform proper technique, but the last couple of years, I have been getting injured at least 2-3 times per year with weight training. Multiply that by 3 weeks down due to injury, that means over 2 months per year downtime.>>> **I am 52 and still weight train. I have no problem with bw exercises but I just love the iron. What I have done over the years is modify my program. I have replaced the conventional dl with the TBDL. Less stress on my lower back. I have replaced the bb back squat with the hip belt squat (ditto). The point is this: find exercises that suit you. Also I lift twice a week. There is no way I can handle more. I also juggle progression - sometimes increasing weight and sometimes keeping a certain weight and increasing reps. I also occasionaly utilize circuit training. I also sometimes take a break from the weights and do bw exercises and cables. BTW, doing hundreds of Hindu squats or pushups is not the best thing for your joints. <<<I am going to make a confession. I ordered his new Dinosaur BW training out of curiosity. I am awaiting the arrival of his product. If it is not as good as he says, I think is going to disappoint a lot of people. After all, he has a devoted fan base and among some, his " Dinosaur Training " was our workout bible. Admittedly, something smells. " Dinosaur Training " cost around 15 dollars. His new training course-on the low end- costs $189 (Ouch). >>>> **I love Kubicks' Dinosaur Training. I still re-read portions. His tapes are great as well. Couldn't understand his sudden conversion to bw commercial hype until he mentioned his good pal Matt Furey. Then everything came together. Yehoshua Zohar Karmiel, Israel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 --- Yehoshua Zohar wrote: <<I love Kubicks' Dinosaur Training. I still re-read portions. His tapes are great as well. Couldn't understand his sudden conversion to bw commercial hype until he mentioned his good pal Matt Furey. Then everything came together.>> ***I suspect that his conversion was not JUST based on hype. I posed the question to Brook Kubik in Matt Furey's forum and he said that the swtich happened a couple of years ago due to repeating injuries. That makes sense. He has not been very active with his website until recently, so it looks like he's been playing around with the BW stuff for some time now. I SUSPECT that his conversion to BW exercises is honest. However, it definitely looks like he is going to milk it. BTW, I got the Dinosaur Bodyweight Training course in the mail yesterday. Have not had the chance to go through it yet but will post to the group once I had had a chance. It's great that you still pump the iron. I have not completely cut it out either. But I am not going to do bench press or regular squats. Seay Palo Alto, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 What is wrong with that, bodyweight is just weight? Think about who is being trained and where they are starting from. What if the subject cannot perform a pushup or a pullup? If they can't do it, they can't do it. That's like me trying a 405 bench when my max is 345. In the example given, ladies in their 70's, I'd be surprised if they could do a single pushup. Another example is one of my own sons, who could not do a single pullup and could barely do a pushup a few years ago. We had to start somewhere, with resistance that was within his capability. He can now do sets of 30 pushups and several pullups. (One night he did 31 pushups. His younger brother followed with 32. Then the first one did 33. The younger brother saw where this was going and was done messing around, and did 50) Brett Draper, UT ________________________________ From: Supertraining on behalf of Cowell Sent: Fri 2/17/2006 9:41 AM To: Supertraining Subject: Re: Muddle Aged Training Wait a minute, you will add resistance to a persons exercise before they can perform the movement using only bodyweight? Are you serious? You are saying that a person who cannot stabilize their own body is better served by getting on a machine and adding weight (for example, they can't do a modified push-up or a bodyweight squat so they get put on a chest press or leg press machine)? How have you helped them other? Is it your goal to further increase the imbalance between prime movers and stabilizers? I would seriously examine this logic. Before anyone gets added resistance they need to be able to control their own body. Anything else is just lazy on the part of the coach. Cowell Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I believe I understand what you are saying, but if someone is unable to do a single push up the resistance they'd have to use on a machine etc would be less than bodyweight not more. (Sorry this is another subject, but it fits) This is why the whole argument against children lifting weights doesn't " hold water " . How can a chin up using bodyweight as resistance be safer than a lat pulldown with less than bodyweight. Jim Storch Elmira, NY USA --- Cowell wrote: > Wait a minute, you will add resistance to a persons > exercise before > they can perform the movement using only bodyweight? > Are you > serious? You are saying that a person who cannot > stabilize their own > body is better served by getting on a machine and > adding weight (for > example, they can't do a modified push-up or a > bodyweight squat so > they get put on a chest press or leg press machine)? > How have you > helped them other? Is it your goal to further > increase the imbalance > between prime movers and stabilizers? I would > seriously examine this > logic. > > Before anyone gets added resistance they need to be > able to control > their own body. Anything else is just lazy on the > part of the coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Re: Muddle Aged Training > Wait a minute, you will add resistance to a persons exercise before > they can perform the movement using only bodyweight? Are you > serious? You are saying that a person who cannot stabilize their own > body is better served by getting on a machine and adding weight (for > example, they can't do a modified push-up or a bodyweight squat so > they get put on a chest press or leg press machine)? How have you > helped them other? Is it your goal to further increase the imbalance > between prime movers and stabilizers? I would seriously examine this > logic. > > Before anyone gets added resistance they need to be able to control > their own body. Anything else is just lazy on the part of the >coach. ***Thank You for your response, and also allow me to apologize for not being specific as to what is meant by " body weight " . I usually think of body weight as the total weight of ones body. So if one does push ups, for instance, and total body weight is say 240 pounds, the upper half of that body weight is perhaps 150 pounds depending on the developement and mass of the lower extremities as a ratio of lower to upper body mass... 150 pounds is way too much for many elderly or middle aged obese people to do even one " rep'. This of course can be ameliorated by modified kneeling pushups,by using less of a horizontal angle ie, pushups from the back of a couch for example,.which one can calculate from the sine of the angle perpendicular to the floor, but we need not get into that or the person may just have too much " frontal protrusion' or weak or vulnerable wrists to place that much weight on them, therfore, I have them sit at a press machine and have them push out with very light weights, initially. This works the pecs and upper body without injuries and without frustration as to their inability to do the exercises at all. Then, in a pulldown or " chin " if you will, most older people cannot do even 1 " rep " so I put them on a pulldown machine for lats and have them do very light weights, which they can do...Perhaps by " body weight " , you mean " no weight " such as when one does, say, lateral raises for the lateral deltoids with no weight or resistance at all. This used to be termed " calisthencs " , that is, exercises with no weights or in this case just the weights of the arms as part of " body weight " As to squats, many older people have weak and vulnerable knee joints and also stability problems which would preclude them from doing any squats at all even with just body weight much less a bar across their back, therefore, they are placed on the leg press machine which is a much more secure and an easier method for older people to maintain balance and stability. They then do presses with much lighter weight than their body weight, I doubt very much if a 65 year old, retired out of shape office worker who weighs 180 pounds body weight, should be placed in a vulnerable and potentialy dangerous position to be injured the first squat taken...Much of my concern with the middle aged and elderly particularly women is to use resistance training to delay or prevent the onset of loss of bone density by stressing the bones via the muscles to become more " dense " and also to condition the heart and lungs and also to develop lean muscle mass while keeping workouts and gym time fun. I do not have a goal to increase the imbalance between prime movers and stabilizers these concerns are more atuned to working with athletes or at least much younger and relativly more " fit " people. There`s a huge difference. It`s really not a matter of logic as much as it is meeting the needs of a special group of people who require specific approaches because of their increased years, vulnerability, fear of the unfamiliar, and of course many other factors that require a different approach. Hope this makes sense and thanks again for you stimulating response. Don Hoffman Amery WI USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 My response to anyone who did not fully grasp my point in regard to bodyweight training before resistance training is that a body weight exercise should be modified to a point where it can be performed correctly. That is why in my original post I wrote " modified push- up " . Forgive me for not clarifying. For instance push-ups from the knees, push-ups with the arms on a bench, etc. I have worked with quite a lot of senior citizens and not a single one of them was ever placed on a machine for any reason whatsoever. In my opinion, the real world is not machines. The variable resistance of dumb bells and bodyweight has a direct carryover to the activities we carry out on a daily basis. Machines quite simply do not. They create what many experts call " dumb muscles " that cannot stabilize joints or execute proper movement patterns (ever watch a bodybuilder try to play rugby?). A senior citizen, or all of us for that matter, need quality of life. In physical terms that means a level of balance and coordination that enables every day activities. Being able to use a chest press will never help someone be able to get themselves off of the floor the way a push-up will. For pull-ups, I recommend eccentric training. Poliquin says that a :30 second eccentric pull-up equals one concentric pull-up. Furthermore, I have not seen any research that suggests that there is any exercise other than pull-ups that will increase pull-up performance, especially not lat pull-downs. Cowell Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 ***From my experience as a strength coach body fat is often the culprit when it comes to doing a pull-up. I rarely if ever see a females over 12% body fat or a man over 16% perform a pull-up. Joe Scituate, MA Cowell wrote: My response to anyone who did not fully grasp my point in regard to bodyweight training before resistance training is that a body weight exercise should be modified to a point where it can be performed correctly. That is why in my original post I wrote " modified push- up " . Forgive me for not clarifying. For instance push-ups from the knees, push-ups with the arms on a bench, etc. I have worked with quite a lot of senior citizens and not a single one of them was ever placed on a machine for any reason whatsoever. In my opinion, the real world is not machines. The variable resistance of dumb bells and bodyweight has a direct carryover to the activities we carry out on a daily basis. Machines quite simply do not. They create what many experts call " dumb muscles " that cannot stabilize joints or execute proper movement patterns (ever watch a bodybuilder try to play rugby?). A senior citizen, or all of us for that matter, need quality of life. In physical terms that means a level of balance and coordination that enables every day activities. Being able to use a chest press will never help someone be able to get themselves off of the floor the way a push-up will. For pull-ups, I recommend eccentric training. Poliquin says that a :30 second eccentric pull-up equals one concentric pull-up. Furthermore, I have not seen any research that suggests that there is any exercise other than pull-ups that will increase pull-up performance, especially not lat pull-downs. Cowell Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 RE: Muddle Aged Training > My response to anyone who did not fully grasp my point in regard to > bodyweight training before resistance training is that a body weight > exercise should be modified to a point where it can be performed > correctly. That is why in my original post I wrote " modified push- > up " . Forgive me for not clarifying. For instance push-ups from the > knees, push-ups with the arms on a bench, etc. > > I have worked with quite a lot of senior citizens and not a single > one of them was ever placed on a machine for any reason whatsoever. > In my opinion, the real world is not machines. The variable > resistance of dumb bells and bodyweight has a direct carryover to the > activities we carry out on a daily basis. Machines quite simply do > not. They create what many experts call " dumb muscles " that cannot > stabilize joints or execute proper movement patterns (ever watch a > bodybuilder try to play rugby?). A senior citizen, or all of us for > that matter, need quality of life. In physical terms that means a > level of balance and coordination that enables every day activities. > Being able to use a chest press will never help someone be able to > get themselves off of the floor the way a push-up will. > > For pull-ups, I recommend eccentric training. Poliquin says > that a :30 second eccentric pull-up equals one concentric pull-up. > Furthermore, I have not seen any research that suggests that there is > any exercise other than pull-ups that will increase pull-up > performance, especially not lat pull-downs. ***Thank You for your reply , I must agree with you on much of what you say. Dumbells are excellent for developing stabilizing muscle, and I also agree on the eccentric moves .. I find it advantages to use a Machine and use two arms on the concentric and one arm on the eccentric in presses, upright rows etc. Also while machines do have a disadvantage in some ways, as you point out, they also provide consistant resistance over the entire range of motion. so I like to do one arm unilateral work, that is: one arm seated rows, one arm pulldowns, on pulley machines and one arm presses on a smith machine etc. This also helps develop balance and coordination, still, as you say it is hard to beat dumbells for that, and I have all of my clients on a dumbell routine. Whenever I am asked: should I do high reps, low reps, heavy weights, light weights, dumbells, barbells, machines, cardio, pilates, swiss balance balls, pushups, pullups, or what ? I always answer;Yes! The body will respond specifically to what it is stressed to do so do them all, just make sure you warm up properly and thoroughly, do the exercises correctly, and don`t jerk, get plenty of rest, proper nutrition and avoid bad habits.. OK Thanks again, .. Stay warm, take care and sin in moderation. Don Hoffman Amery WI USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Please don't get me wrong, I agree with the idea of eccentric training for pull-ups, but what exactly does Poliquin mean by a :30 second eccentric pull-up is equal to one concentric. What is this based on? I would think a :05 eccentric might actual be equal to more than one concentric, but this is only because I have read that the eccentric portion does more damage. I have no references. Also, I guess it would not trian the pull-up 'motor program'. Will Henry San Diego, CA > My response to anyone who did not fully grasp my point in regard to > bodyweight training before resistance training is that a body weight > exercise should be modified to a point where it can be performed > correctly. That is why in my original post I wrote " modified push- > up " . Forgive me for not clarifying. For instance push-ups from the > knees, push-ups with the arms on a bench, etc. > > I have worked with quite a lot of senior citizens and not a single > one of them was ever placed on a machine for any reason whatsoever. > In my opinion, the real world is not machines. The variable > resistance of dumb bells and bodyweight has a direct carryover to the > activities we carry out on a daily basis. Machines quite simply do > not. They create what many experts call " dumb muscles " that cannot > stabilize joints or execute proper movement patterns (ever watch a > bodybuilder try to play rugby?). A senior citizen, or all of us for > that matter, need quality of life. In physical terms that means a > level of balance and coordination that enables every day activities. > Being able to use a chest press will never help someone be able to > get themselves off of the floor the way a push-up will. > > For pull-ups, I recommend eccentric training. Poliquin says > that a :30 second eccentric pull-up equals one concentric pull-up. > Furthermore, I have not seen any research that suggests that there is > any exercise other than pull-ups that will increase pull-up > performance, especially not lat pull-downs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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