Re: Collective Knowledge Breast Cancer Dx

[Guest guest]

Dear Lyn

I know the lady who was the first to have sentinel node biopsy by the dr

pioneering the technique. This is based in Surrey originally. She is very

involved now in breast care support and fundraising. She is also very

knowledgeable about sentinel node biopsy, and i'm sure would be happy to talk to

you if you wanted to. Contact me on 01359 251552 if you want to discuss this any

further.

best wishes,

Message date : Oct 13 2003, 01:04 AM

From : jonathan treasure

To : ukherbalist

Copy to :

Subject : Re: Collective Knowledge Breast Cancer Dx

> Dx Following a recall on 3 yearly mammogram, I had further mammograms, ultra

> sound and cone biopsy on Mon 29th Sept, the results on Mon 6th Oct showed I

> have a ductal tumour, left breast, lower inner quadrant stage 3.

Hey Lyn,

May I offer some " strategic " advice - I know it is a shock , but you need

to slow right down. Initially, do as much investigation on the tumor as

possible. For example, stage 3 is a " preliminary staging " . Technically you

are not yet staged. ( sure you did not mean ?) Final staging will

have to be confirmed by post surgical pathological verification and the

sentinel node and possibly further screening. Accurate staging is

important because it determines treatment options and outcomes. DO NOT get

involved in treatment choices until you have maximum information of which

accurate staging is essential but only part of the story.. It is not at all

unusual to be rushed into oncological treatments out of sheer terror, and

then regret them profoundly afterwards after learning more.

Hindsight.......

You need a minimum of

1. Tumor grade

2. Accurate clinical staging. Sentinel node, CT liver and x ray lung, etc

for ruling out metastatic progression if + sentinel

3. Receptor status : minimum ER, PR HER2-neu.

3. Other tests if available - p53, BRCA1/2 etc

> I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the info at the moment with friends rushing

> round being supportive and knowing my interest in all things herbal I have

> been given info on Paw Paw, Hunza Apricot kernel (? cyanide) the work of a

> health researcher Day (Cancer the winnable War) and many other things.

Do not waste time investigating " fringe " CAM treatments until you have

understood your own malignancy, its identity, nature, and likely course of

progression in terms of the best available medical science. Unfortunately

medical oncologists are not always the most enlightened or adventurous of

physicians so getting that information together can be an uphill battle. To

be honest we have had more than one patient from the UK who was frustrated

with the oncology advice they were receiving there.

Then study the mainstream options - surgery-radiation-chemo-endocrine

therapies. Study the side effects and outcomes and decide what you YOU feel

OK about . If curing cancer was an exact science, it would not be the

problem it is today. The mainstream knee-jerk surgery/radiation/adjuvant

endocrine program is by no means always curative, nor necessarily what you

might want to do. Our practice has more breast cancer patients who have

declined one , two or all conventional treatment arms I mentioned and are

doing just fine,( with regular MRI monitoring) than those who went totally

with all three . The main point is that each person came to their own

decision based on a deep investigation using all available modern resources

(including us) to provide information, but in the end, the available data

is often inconclusive with regard to selecting the treatment plan from many

options, and it has to be squared with your own internal decision/intuitive

process and overall personal goals and situation.

>time to check it all out. I realise the time and effort that

> goes into researching anything well, but if any of you have an interest in, or

> knowledge of orthodox/herbal treatment you would be willing to share either

> via the whole list or with me at herbbower@... I would be grateful.

>

>

> Orthodox Rx by Mr Purushotham at Addenbrooke's. Wide excision removal of

> tumour due this Friday 17th Oct, (have been offered to go into a clinical

> trial

> for sentinel lymph node removal, they have previously done 300 I understand

> the

> fist 40-50 can be suspect) then 12 weeks after op 4 weeks daily radiotherapy,

> then 5 years Tamxoifen. I have mentioned removing the breast (or both) to

> not take the tamoxifen; this seemed to go down like a lead balloon (am I

> fodder

> for their clinical trail).

Can you not get a sentinel node without the rad/tamoxifen trial? IF not I

would get the sentinel node on the trial, then drop out of the study.

(happens all the time) . You need a sentinel node! I know Addenbrooks is

" progressive " in that it is a research hospital, so you may be lucky.

Do not consider surgery to the contralateral side until the staging is

completed. There are good statistical figures on ipsilateral and

contralateral recurrence for every stage, so get the data before jumping to

conclusions.

> Px 54 years old had lumpectomy 15 years ago on left breast for benign lump,

> left upper outer quadrant with no further treatment.

You should see if the cell block is retained ( it should be). The histology

may have been negative, but it can be retested , including for the other

features as above now. It could be important.

Incidentally at 54 yo, tamoxifen is not necessarily considered superior to

aromatase inhibitors, but the choice of either depends on tumor receptor

status.

Anyway - hope that may possibly help for starters,

Treasure, MNIMH, AHG

Medical Herbalist

Partners For Health,

525 East Main Street,

Ashland,

OR 97520

tel

fax

http://www.partnersforhealth.net

mailto:jtreasure@...

[Guest guest]

Concerning breast cancer, see the following article:

Interim Clinical Results on Acupuncture in Cancer-Treatment: Notes from my

Casebook

Are Simeon Thoresen DVM

Leikvollgata 31, 3213 Sandefjord, Norway.

" Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is

ready to distort the truth. Intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence

of his sense in order to justify his logic " .

Fjodor Dostojevskij

Introduction

In 1984 I first tried out a new method in treating cancer, with very promising

results in a Dachshund. The dog had mammary cancer (multiple tumours along the

nipple line) and had begun to develop dyspnoea - it probably had several lung

metastases. I treated LV03 (see rationale below) and in a few weeks the tumours

had disappeared almost completely. The dog died several years later from a

kidney deficiency. Since then, I have treated about 500-600 patients with all

kinds of cancer. Due to the possibility to make an exact Channel Diagnosis as

required according to the method described in this article the results were very

good in mammary cancer. For the same reason, the results also were very good in

melanosarcoma. Results in lymphosarcoma and brain cancer were good, but not as

good as in mammary cancer and melanosarcoma. However, my results in liver cancer

were not good; the healing rate was zero in the few liver cancers that I have

treated.

At a seminar in December, 2002, I was approached by Manzetti, research

asssistant from the Prostate Cancer group, at the Institute of cellular and

molecular biology - the University of Oslo, who showed interest in my results.

Through his review of current literature, he organized a meeting with Dr. Med.

Ottestad, Chief Medical Officer of the mammary cancer department at the Radium

Hospital of Norway. Unfortunately, in spite of the very good overall results,

because of time constraints, the details in my case-notes were not of a

sufficient at that time. Therefore, Dr. Ottestad urged me to document an

unbroken sequence of cases during a certain time-span, and then report the

results back to him.

This I now have done; my claims of clinical success were taken from my notes

only, and the statistics were compiled in a simple manner. Please note that the

results of the series documented here were better than those of my previous

cases. I told Dr. Ottestad that the overall success rate over the years was

circa 70% but that the results in the series reported here were even better; 80%

had total disappearance or significant regression of the cancer, and the

remaining 20% of cancers showed no further progression.

Current conventional treatment of cancer relies mainly on radical surgery,

cytotoxic chemotherapy, radiation treatment and attempts to boost immune

function by chemical immunostimulation, administering biotechnologically

produced specific antibodies, or purified interferon, etc. Research on

gene-based therapy is in the early stages. Many of these treatments induce

severe adverse effects in the patient, and some of these effects can compromise

normal organic function, and lead directly to the death of the patient. For

example, some patients given cytotoxic chemotherapy develop myocardial hepatic

or kidney lesions that can seriously compromise their lives.

Over the past 9 years, I have developed an acupuncture protocol to treat

cancer-patients, animal and human. Properly used by people trained in the basic

principles of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), this protocol has few if any

adverse effects. It is based on the following principles:

(a) The normal biological activity of bodily cells is to grow and multiply in

an orderly, controlled way. For many animals and plants this process continues

throughout life. It is only in the case of highly developed animals that growth

and cell division stop at a certain age. It is likewise in these species that

cancer becomes a " normal " illness.

( Holistic clinicians evaluate the Controlling Processes (CPs) - those that

control, or limit, the growth and lifespan of cancerous cells - to be totally

normal and essential for health. If growth processes continue throughout life in

a controlled way, cancer (uncontrolled processes) occurs to a much smaller

degree. The CPs begin to play a more active role when growth is about to stop.

They impede further physical development. The higher up the evolutionary tree a

species is, the more important normal functioning of these CPs becomes; their

importance is maximal in mammals. If the function of the CPs fails, growth

processes regain dominance; the cells survive past their normal time to die and

cancerous tumours arise.

© Many reasons explain functional failure of the CPs. Constant

wear-and-tear, and attempts to adapt to day-to-day changes in external and

internal environment, stress the CPs of all cellular and bodily functions

constantly. In addition to the (External) Stressors and stimuli that adversely

influence living organisms, the stressors include shock, strain on the psyche,

bombardment with unwanted sounds, visual impressions, additives and

electromagnetic influences (high voltage cables, geopathic stress, etc). These

stressors can lead to strain on, or loss of dominance of, the CPs, and

especially normal functioning of the immune system.

(d) The aim of effective cancer therapy and prevention must be to help the

patient to maintain the dominance of, or restore the lost function of, the CPs,

especially of the immune system. By preventing or limiting immunomediated

diseases, including autoimmune diseases and cancer, the immune system is

critical for good health. Many methods, from meditation to more or less

vegetarian diets, have been developed to re-establish the essential functions of

the CPs. But in my experience the most effective of all is to use the Ko Cycle,

the body's own Processes to restore control.

Thus, the primary aim, the most important function, of holistic medicine is to

stimulate the body's CPs. The idea is to " bring control " to cellular growth

processes; otherwise they become uncontrolled, which is the basic problem with

cancerous cells. If we stimulate the wrong Processes, in this case the Growth

Process, we may aggravate the disorder by stimulating tumour growth. In my

experience, working via the Ko Cycle (Controlling) Cycle is the best way to

stimulate the body's CPs.

Written before 200 BC, the Yellow Emperor's Internal Medicine Classic (Huangdi

Neijing), was and still is the basic text for practitioners of TCM. It described

the fundamental theories of Change, Yin-Yang, Five Elements, Qi-Xue (Energy and

Blood), Jing-Luo-Mai (Channel, Collateral and Extraordinary Vessel)

relationships, Channel-Organ relationships, External and Internal Pathogenic

Factors, the interaction of the body-mind-spirit, etc.

Huangdi Neijing teaches that each of the 12 Channels supports another Channel

(nourishes its Son Channel) and controls a different Channel (Governs its

Grandson Channel). Likewise, each Channel is nourished by its Mother Channel and

controlled by its Grandfather Channel. Thus, each Channel has Generative (Sheng)

and Control (Ko) functions on its related elements, as follows:

Sheng (Generative) Cycle* Liver & Gall Bladder >> Heart & Small Intestine;

Triple Heater & Pericardium >> Spleen & Stomach >> Lung & Large Intestine >>

Kidney & Bladder >> Liver & Gall bladder

Ko (Controlling) Cycle**

Liver & Gall bladder

X

Spleen & Stomach

X

Kidney & Bladder

X

Heart & Small Intestine; Triplel Heater & Pericardium

X

Lung & Large Intestine

X

Liver & Gall bladder

* Where >>=Generates, Nourishes, or Engenders

** Where X=Controls (brings control to), Governs or Prevents

Unruliness

My protocol in cancer therapy uses the Ko Cycle only. Furthermore, I use only

the Yin Channel that Brings Control to the affected organ, whether the cancerous

organ (or its related parts) is Yin or Yang. In the Ko Cycle, the Yin-Yang Organ

Pairs related to the Elements are:

Thus, for example, I use:

LV Channel to control cancer of the Spleen (or Stomach, its Yang partner), or

of tissues along the course of their Channels, for example, cancer of the lower

medial tibia (where SP Channel passes) or mammary cancer (ST Channel passes

through the nipple);

SP Channel to control cancer of the Kidney (or Bladder, its Yang partner), or

of the adrenal gland, ovary, oviduct, uterus, cervix, vagina, testicle,

spermatic ducts, seminal vesicle, prostate, penis (all directly related to KI),

or cancer of the tissues along the course of their Channels, for example, cancer

of the sacrum of the mammary gland (ST Channel passes through the nipple)

I adhere to the classical Ko (Controlling) Relationships in most cases but I

change my protocol if clinical improvement does not occur within two weeks.

Cancer treatment in practice

First, one must make an exact Channel Diagnosis by a simple observation of where

the tumour has arisen. Let us take mammary cancer as an example. It manifests on

ST Channel. We must then stimulate LV, the Ko Controlling Channel of ST. For

this, we may use:

a.. Either one of the Command Points of the LV Channel

b.. A liver-supporting diet

c.. Liver-supporting herbs

d.. Or a mixture of the factors mentioned

It is most important to stimulate only the Ko (Controlling) Grandfather Channel,

not the Ko (Controlling) Point of ST itself. During the period of treatment, we

should stimulate no other Channel or Process. However, we may combine other

therapies that stimulate LV.

To bring most cancers under control usually takes 1-3 acupuncture sessions, at

inter-session intervals of circa 4 weeks, range but treatment of very severe

cancers may continue for 1-2 years.

With this protocol I use only acupuncture to treat most types of cancer. Mammary

cancer is an exception; in that case I usually administer some helping herbs or

diets. This is because the controlling action of the liver is critical to

control mammary cancer, and if the diet is very wrong, the liver will not

function properly. However, if my patients are receiving medication(s)

prescribed by their primary medical doctors or oncologists, I ask them to

continue with that.

Recent notes from my casebook

The 15 cases described below were from an unbroken sequential series, selected

from my casebook by date of presentation between April 22nd 2003 and August 17th

2003; they were not " cherry-picked " to show the best outcomes. Also patients

treated before April 22nd 2002 that came in for follow-up from treatment or

further examination were included. This report includes ALL cancer-cases seen or

treated within that time window.

Table 1 summarises my treatment protocols and their interim outcomes in 15

patients with confirmed cancer.

Table 1: Summary of my treatment protocols and their interim outcomes

#

Cancer type

Progression

Patient & treatment sessions

Acupoint(s) used and comments

Rationale for the selection of the specific Acupoint(s)

1.

Seminoma. The left testis is 7,5 cm in diameter

Male dog, Golden retriever, 15 years old.

LU11 & PC09

Selection from pulse-diagnosis.

The testis was at the second session reduced to 6,5 cm.

Session 1: 17. June

Session 2: 19. August.

LU11

PC09

2.

Cervical cancer: diagnosed in 2002

Woman, 45 years old

TH02

This was used successfully in other cases for many years, and the rationale

was pure intuition

After monthly sessions from 30. July 2002 to 16. July 2003 the cancer was

completely disappeared

Session 1: 30 July 2002

Session 2-12: monthly

Last session: 16 July

TH02

TH02

Th02

3.

Malignant mammacarcinoma

The carcinoma was ca. 1, cm in diameter

Woman, 60 years

LV03

ST Channel passes through nipple; LV Controls ST.

26. August. The cancer was " slightly reduced " according to her doctor.

1. treatment 18. June

2. treatment 14. July

3. treatment 26. August

LV03

LV03

LV03

4.

Cascinoma of the epithelium, with mestastases to several areas.

Male dog, Riesenschnauser, 9 years old.

HT09

The cancer was situated on the LU-meridian, and HT controls the lung.

No change in the situation since the treatment was started

1.session: 15. July

2. session 15. August

HT09

HT09

5.

Osteosarcoma, size of 12x12 cm.

Dog, Gertman Shepard, 8 years old.

LU11

The cancer was situated on the GB-meridian, and Lung controls the GB.

Session 1: 22. July

Session 2:19, August. The cancer is still 12x12 cm. No change.

LU11

LU11

6.

Lymphosarcoma: with multiple tumours 1.2cm and 2.9 x 3.3cm; 3.7 x 4.3cm and

3.2 x 3.4cm; 2.5 x 4.5cm and 2.5 x 2.5cm. 2.9 x 3.0cm. 3.2 x 3.8cm and 3.3 x

2.7cm

horse, Swedish warm blood, born 1997

SI03+BL62, GV01

June 29 after 6 sessions: Tumours were reduced in size by circa 40%

Session 1: 7 April

Session 2-6: weekly

SI03+BL62, GV01

SI03+BL62, GV01

SI03+BL62, GV01

SI03+BL62, GV01

The first tumour appeared on the ventral midline (CV); therefore I treated

the opposite midline (GV); For cancer on Dumai, treat, Renmai; for cancer on

Renmai, treat Dumai; SI03+BL62 are classical points to treat Dumai.

7.

Mammary tumour: 10mm x 8mm

Kiri (bitch, Chihuahua, born 1999)

The tumours had stopped growing No further tumour development The front,

left lump has been reduced from 1 cm. To 0,9 cm.

Session 1: 22/4

Session 2: 20/5

Session 2: 20/5

LV03 bilateral

ST Channel passes through nipple; LV Controls ST.

8.

Mammary cancer: aggressive

Woman, 42 years

LV03

ST Channel passes through nipple; LV Controls ST.

After the last session the cancer was completely gone

Session 1: 19/11/02

Then monthly sessions until 25 June 2003:

LV03

LV03

9.

Mammary tumour: diameter 1.1cm

bitch, English setter, born 1996

LV03

Tumour had regressed to 0.2cm after the 1. session.

On the 3. session the cancer was almost impossible to detect.

Session 1: 17 June:

Session 2: 18 July:

3.session: 15. August

LV03

LV03

LV03

ST Channel passes through nipple; LV Controls ST.

10.

Mammary tumours: (two tumours; Diameter 1.4cm and 1.1cm)

bitch English setter, born 1998

LV03

ST Channel passes through nipple; LV Controls ST.

Both tumours had regressed to 0.3-0.2cm

On the 3. session the cancer was almost impossible to detect.

Session 1: 17 June 2003

Session 2: 18 July

3. session: 15. august

LV03

LV03

LV03

11.

Osteosarcoma: 11cm2 (confirmed by biopsy)

dog, born 1994

HT09 left side

The cancer was on LU Channel, and as HT controls LU, I used HT09.

After the 5. ttreatment: No cancer was found; there was only a piece of dry

skin left at the spot.

Session 1: November 2002

Monthly treatments until 29. April 2003.

HT09

HT09

HT09

....

12.

Perianal cancers: multiple

dog, Chihuahua, born 1999

After the first treatments the cancer stopped growing. The defecation was

eased, and it has stayed like this since Feb 2002

Session 1: February 2002

Monthly sessions, still going on.

CV23

The tumour appeared on the dorsal midline (GV); therefore I treated the

opposite midline (CV).

13.

Peritoneal-tumours (abdominal with multiple metastases): Abdominal

circumference was 67cm - diagnosed with x-ray.

dog, born 1989

After the third session the Dog was much better and defecation was now

possible, Abdominal circumference was 60cm; as I have no x-ray, I cannot comment

on the tumour volume but the dog was much happier and active and glad.

Session 1: April 2003

Session 2: April 29

Session 3: 11 June

Session 4: 17 July

SP06, left side

SP06, left side

KI02, left side

KI02, left side

Pulse-diagnosis

14.

Prostate cancer: with multiple skeletal metastases

Man, 60 years

HT09

Pulsediagnosis

After the May-session the doctor told him that the cancer had gone dormant

and had regressed; PSA was only 48 units [which is good, subnormal); he has had

no other treatment

Session 1: Autumn 2002

Monthly sessions after that.

May 2003

August 2003

HT09

HT09

HT09

HT09

.....

Pulse Diagnosis

15.

Lymphatic leucemia

Man, 60 years

SI18 & LU01

Pulsediagnosis

After the treatment started there has been no change in the blood-values

1.session: 18. June

2.session: 17. July

3.session: 18 August

SI18 & LU01

SI18 & LU01

SI18 & LU01

Table 2: Summary of my treatment protocols and their interim outcomes

Clinical outcome [interim] % of cases

Number of Cases

Humans 33

5

Dogs 60

9

Horses 6

1

Benign tumors 46

7

Malign tumors 53

8

Not performed cytology of suspected benign tumors 33

5

Not performed cytology of suspected malign tumors 6

1

Performed cytology of total cases 60

9

Total disappearance of visible tumours in total cases

20

3

Total disappearance of visible benign tumors

0

0

Total disappearance of malignant tumors

20

3

Reduction of size of benigne tumors

40

6

Reduction of size of malign tumors

13

2

No further development of benign tumors (standstill)

6

1

No further development of malign tumors (standstill)

20

3

Death, detectable cancer progression, or marked clinical deterioration

0

0

I encourage medical and veterinary clinicians, and experienced acupuncture

therapists, to try my methods in cancer therapy. My clinical experience of the

methods over the last 10 years has convinced me that they can very significantly

improve the general health and well-being of 90% of cancer-patients (human and

animal), and increase the survival rates by 70%.

I am willing to discuss the cases with you before you select your points for

treatment, and if you need further discussion in preparation for later sessions.

I also encourage you to report back to me when you have outcome data on at least

10 cases. If enough clinicians cooperate in a multi-centre clinical trial, we

could have a very substantial body of cases to prepare a multi-authored clinical

report within 1-2 years.

You may email me at: .

Acknowledgements

I thank Phil MRCVS, Dublin, Ireland, for his criticism and editorial help

in the drafting of this article.

Are Simeon Thoresen

arethore@...

http://home.online.no/~arethore/

Collective Knowledge Breast Cancer Dx

Dear all

All thoughts, comments, info welcome, supportive treatment plans (in case I

have missed anything).

Dx Following a recall on 3 yearly mammogram, I had further mammograms, ultra

sound and cone biopsy on Mon 29th Sept, the results on Mon 6th Oct showed I

have a ductal tumour, left breast, lower inner quadrant stage 3.

I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the info at the moment with friends rushing

round being supportive and knowing my interest in all things herbal I have

been given info on Paw Paw, Hunza Apricot kernel (? cyanide) the work of a

health researcher Day (Cancer the winnable War) and many other things.

I

just do not have time to check it all out. I realise the time and effort that

goes into researching anything well, but if any of you have an interest in, or

knowledge of orthodox/herbal treatment you would be willing to share either

via the whole list or with me at herbbower@... I would be grateful.

Orthodox Rx by Mr Purushotham at Addenbrooke's. Wide excision removal of

tumour due this Friday 17th Oct, (have been offered to go into a clinical

trial

for sentinel lymph node removal, they have previously done 300 I understand

the

fist 40-50 can be suspect) then 12 weeks after op 4 weeks daily radiotherapy,

then 5 years Tamxoifen. I have mentioned removing the breast (or both) to

not take the tamoxifen; this seemed to go down like a lead balloon (am I

fodder

for their clinical trail).

Px 54 years old had lumpectomy 15 years ago on left breast for benign lump,

left upper outer quadrant with no further treatment.

No family history of breast cancer (Nan died 95 of stomach cancer, aunt died

91 of the same having had a colostomy bag for 15 years. I care for my mum who

is 89.

Quite good vegetarian diet for 28 years, non-smoker, 2-3 units alcohol per

month, but I am very overweight, partially due to lack of exercise. Otherwise

have been healthy.

I have good friend and family support and in the main am coping OK. I just

want to make the best informed consent that I can in the time available as do

not want to miss out on the clinical trail if this is the best option.

Yours truly

Lyn Judge

[Guest guest]

> Concerning breast cancer, see the following article:

> Interim Clinical Results on Acupuncture in Cancer-Treatment: Notes from my

> Casebook

>

>

>

> Are Simeon Thoresen DVM

>

Are,

You must surely understand it is really impossible to make any assessment of

your claims from the schematic information you provide, and as a result I

personally do not see it as an especially helpful contribution to the

original post request for information.

However, if your work is impressive as you say, it should unquestionably be

evaluated and properly published in the literature. I would be happy to

facilitate an independent validation of your say 3 best human breast

cancer cases treated with acupuncture alone that have resulted in disease

reversal or remission and survival time of over 5 years . To do so you would

need to provide a fully documented report of each case with

pathological/imaging data supporting the original diagnosis , the response

to treatment, and confirming the absence of any intercurrent interventions.

I am acquainted with two or three of the best integrative oncologists in the

USA, one of whom is an LAc and Chinese herbalist at Cedars Sinai , who would

be happy to undertake such a case review, and provide peer recommendations

to the appropriate journals a appropriate.

My contact details are below.

Treasure, MNIMH, AHG

Medical Herbalist

Partners For Health,

525 East Main Street,

Ashland,

OR 97520

tel

fax

http://www.partnersforhealth.net

mailto:jtreasure@...

[Guest guest]

> Hello everyone

>

> Thanks for the info jonathan and others.

>

> I hear what you say but have a major stumbling block in the presence

> of The Nat Inst. for Clinical Excellence (NICE) their directive states that

> all women with a Dx of breast cancer must start their treatment within 4

> weeks of Dx (this is treatment not just being seen by consultant). So delay

> may

> problematic, (because I took the result well, their words not mine) I was

> offered the sentinel trial, because of the possibility of a further op 7 days

> later

> if nodes prove +tive. I think if I try and postpone it they may think I am

> not taking it so well, don't know unless I try it. They know I'm coming in

> armed with questions that I want answers to.

Lyn , you will probably find, like most ct's, they may have other and

equally unnacceptable inclusion critieria. Eg no supplements, no

antioxidants, no CAM interventions etc. As a rule of thumb we advise folk

to only go for trials as last resort when other therapies have failed and

the trial offers something otherwise unobtainable. You can surely get a

sentinel without doing their trial? >

> At my pre op check up session I asked to see my notes the Tumour grade was

> typed in my report as stage 3, ER positive.

> My chest xray was clear

> As the bone marrow is part of the trial results will be known whenever

> possible, as not part of normal treatment plan here.

nor here. BRAC positive usually goes to bone marrow biopsy. I was thinking

bone scan not marrow, although marrow is great for picking up

early/micrometastatic stuff. . You need the HER2 neu. If you are +ve

herceptin is a serious option.

> CT liver scan not offered

> MRI body scans not offered unless there is a need to go to chemo.

> I don't think these will be offered on the NHS

welcome to Blair's Britain huh. If your sentinel indicated you should

have a whole body PET - standard of care.

> Had also thought about dropping out of trial myself.

Good .

> All notes, x-rays, biopsy, notes from previous lumpectomy are missing?

Bad

> Aromatase inhibitors from what I can find of english research this is not

> considered as effective once through the menopause.

Nope. AR inhibitors are actually contraindicated pre-menopausally. They are

directed against peripheral estrogen formation from androgens, not ovarian

production. The 3rd generation drugs are being actively trialled against

tamoxifen as first line adjunctive therapies with pretty good results.

Persoanlly I don't like them, even the newer ones, because aromatase is a

cytochrome (heme based ) enzyme, and there are lots of said enzymes that get

messsed up by AR inhibiting driugs, even though the later versions are far

better than the first generatuion.

> You ought to see the wonderful suite GKWelcome have at Addenbrookes. Lots of

> vested interest here need to keep my wits about me.

>

I can imagine. Trivia: I was born in Addenbrookes - (the old one) if it is

still standing. They should put up a blue plaque

If you want to email me off list feel free, although I am away for a week

from Thursday at the AHG conference in New Mexico.

jonathan

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

the article went bad through the mail, so that I attach the web-address for the

article.

(http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/articles/apcancer.html)

Are Simeon Thoresen

arethore@...

http://home.online.no/~arethore/

Re: Collective Knowledge Breast Cancer Dx

> Concerning breast cancer, see the following article:

> Interim Clinical Results on Acupuncture in Cancer-Treatment: Notes from my

> Casebook

>

>

>

> Are Simeon Thoresen DVM

>

Are,

You must surely understand it is really impossible to make any assessment of

your claims from the schematic information you provide, and as a result I

personally do not see it as an especially helpful contribution to the

original post request for information.

However, if your work is impressive as you say, it should unquestionably be

evaluated and properly published in the literature. I would be happy to

facilitate an independent validation of your say 3 best human breast

cancer cases treated with acupuncture alone that have resulted in disease

reversal or remission and survival time of over 5 years . To do so you would

need to provide a fully documented report of each case with

pathological/imaging data supporting the original diagnosis , the response

to treatment, and confirming the absence of any intercurrent interventions.

I am acquainted with two or three of the best integrative oncologists in the

USA, one of whom is an LAc and Chinese herbalist at Cedars Sinai , who would

be happy to undertake such a case review, and provide peer recommendations

to the appropriate journals a appropriate.

My contact details are below.

Treasure, MNIMH, AHG

Medical Herbalist

Partners For Health,

525 East Main Street,

Ashland,

OR 97520

tel

fax

http://www.partnersforhealth.net

mailto:jtreasure@...

List Owner

Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 13/10/2003 18:31:28 GMT Daylight Time,

greenman@... writes:

> Lyn , you will probably find, like most ct's, they may have other and

> equally unnacceptable inclusion critieria. Eg no supplements, no

> antioxidants, no CAM interventions etc. As a rule of thumb we advise folk

> to only go for trials as last resort when other therapies have failed and

> the trial offers something otherwise unobtainable. You can surely get a

> sentinel without doing their trial? >

Sorry sentinel not normally available as non standard treatment

taking the trial is the only way to get this.