Re: New study on ARBs effectiveness in arthritis

[Guest guest]

There's obviously some big grant money being spread around.

I wonder of it's by Benicar's manufacturer- it would be in their best

interests to find some of these mechanisms (of immune supression)

since I think it's relatively new and still under patent.

This paper indicates it's a TH1 *and* TH2 suppressor, and might be

usefull in RA.

Are there any RA people who've tried Benicar? I thought there was

in the 'other' group we don't mention.

If Benicar suppresses TH1 and TH2 then it's a more potent immune

suppressor than the theory of being an inflammatory blockade, and

shifting one pathway to another. This indicates it's much more of an

immune suppressant, than a modulator, in the sense of how we usually

use the word modulator..

ANy comments out there? This would be interesting to toss around -

- Penny? You guys are still using it - and I know there's

gotta be more people out there still using it.

Is there anyone out there that was using HIGH dose, that has been

able to come off it? (I know 's used low dose sporatically).

Barb

> Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

>

> penny

[Guest guest]

The money from big companies for these studies usually run in cycles

of several years. It is unlikely that the current studies were

concieved due to Marshalls persistance in the last year, or to

s article in the journal of inflammation last year. The theory

is based on good science, and several researchers have made the

connection and are following it up.

I do not have a subscription to pubmed, so I can't read the entire

paper. Can anyone tell me how they base their statement on reducing

Th2 response? Other papers indicate that C-I arthritis is definately

a Th1 response with suppressed Th2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=8766554 & query_hl=3

I have still not seen anything that indicates that Olmesartan

suppresses any normal immune response, only that it suppresses

extreme th1 response.

Disclosure: I am on high dose Olmesartan, 6 months on MP for CFS, 2

months on phase 2. I am absolutely convinced of its anti

inflammatory properties. I have not come off it, since there is no

reason to, and will not for 1.5 to 2.5 years.

Ken

> > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> >

> > penny

[Guest guest]

We had some pretty intensive discussions on the Th1 and Th2 pathways

in the past, and I think most people concluded that the two cannot

be seperated so easily. That there's a lot of interaction.

Suppression of both pathways would explain why I've suddenly started

catching colds again and having difficulty shaking them, after many

years of not catching any colds.

I also believe that Benicar is a remarkable anti-inflammatory, and

I'm so glad there's good research being done. I wouldn't be

surprised at all if Sankyo's funding the research in Japan, since

they're a Japanese company. Japan's known for pretty good research,

too. I just hope the research moves to humans soon so that more

people can start using it for arthritis. I have a good friend who's

in severe arthritic pain, more so since stopping celebrex. I can't

really recommend Benicar to her in a way that she can understand,

and I certainly would never suggest that she follow the protocol

described at mp.com. I will send her this article though, and tell

her that I'm taking Benicar and getting a lot of relief from the

pain. Perhaps her doctor could investigate.

penny

> > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> >

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> > >

> > > penny

[Guest guest]

Penny

I find that the so called experts make claims to the brilliance of

these drugs yet fail to realise the potential for the drugs to build

resistance and cause failed therapy.It's wonderfull to use a mouse

model and prove something- yet it doesn't hold the long term hope for

me as every type of arthritis treatment fails it's patients.You

virtually get no relief from a certain groups of drugs then you go on

to the next lot which also become less and less effective.

You'd also not have 10 plus arb's being produced and refined- if the

first group clamped the angiotensin receptor like it possably did

early in it's use.

When these so called experts come around and realise therapeutic

prototcols need monitoring not mouse science I'd be there biggest

ally.This go off and do this for 2 years and I guarantee the sun will

shine out of your rear doesn't win me over.

Surely if they can have a huge impact on your inflammation by clamping

your antiogensin they can find blood tests to show this occuring.

until this comes around we'll remain in the dark ages with any

therapies.I hate that I could take olmersartin and find absolutely

brilliant relief for a month then NOTHING just increasing bacterial

colony counts.

> Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

>

> penny

[Guest guest]

Tony, I don't know about how Benicar may be impacting bacterial

loads. That's a great question. However, I can tell you I've been on

the drug for over a year now and the benefits have not diminished in

the least. AND, I'm feeling better and better energy wise, although

I'm pretty sure that's due to the Zithromax and Diflucan. The

Benicar doesn't seem to affect my fatigue, but it's taking care of

my pain and anxiety symptoms. Also still effecting my hormones.

Lighter periods, less thyroid meds.

I do think that if I had it to do over again, with 20/20 hind sight,

I'd side with the doctors who suggest ramping up on the Benicar. I

found the first few weeks extremely difficult because the fatigue

was SO intense. Perhaps ramping up would have alleviated that. If

it's true, as stated in the protocol, that ramping up causes

problems, then I could have switched to full dose. But like so many

aspects of 'the protocol that cannot be named', I don't see the

evidence to support starting out on such a high dose, or why one set

of symptoms is better or worse than the other. It may depend on the

patient, and how they process drugs (see the post on the 4 metabolic

pathways). If I'd started on low dose, I probably wouldn't have

realized how effective the drug was at blocking my symptoms, but it

seems Moscowitz is getting results in his patients with low dose.

Perhaps I wouldn't have developed a dependence on such a high dose

either if I'd started with a lower dose. Who knows, since I don't

want to go back to the way I was, just to find out. :-) Right now, I

think this drug is benefitting me greatly. I'd be much worse off

without it. And I don't have any side effects, unless they're

unknown ones that'll take their toll later.

penny

> > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> >

> > penny

[Guest guest]

Penny

Yeah it's a good drug for some, it just builds something

remotely/similar like resistance that needs looking into.I know that

when I first took it at the high dose end it clamped inflammation

then it stopped giving those clamping benefits, it actually gave me

the problems I suppose one would associate with sluggish flows. I

felt my jaw play up when I took the benicar and it lost it's

inflammation clamping.

Som,ething is working in your favour and I thionk outside of giving

you a huge problem with viral ilnesses (they hit you hard). It's all

good.

> > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> >

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> > >

> > > penny

[Guest guest]

The arthritis study above states that ARBs suppress both the Th1 and

Th2 responses: (this is a new idea)

" CONCLUSION: ARBs suppressed antigen-specific immune responses for

Th1 and Th2 in vivo. "

That could explain my return to the old pre-cfs days when viruses

always hit me hard.

There were times when I thought perhaps the Benicar wasn't working

quite as well, but then it would kick back in, which leads me to

believe that there must be times when I'm producing more Angiotensin

II (or whatever it is that's causing my symptoms) than others. That

we can have symptom " flares " on Benicar or off it, either way.

It would be interesting to find out what these upswings and

downswings correspond to? I mean, why do we have " flares " ? We should

be measuring these angiotensin levels and cytokine levels, etc. to

try to figure out what's driving it. Are our bacteria colonies more

vigorous during flares?

Since it's over a year now, I've realized that I'm getting just as

much benefit today as I did in the beginning and the Benicar hasn't

lost any of its effectiveness. Whatever the Benicar's doing, it's

not completely wiping out all inflammatory response. But it's sure

knocking it down so that the symptoms are gone.

I've been concerned too that this immune dampening (calming the

inflammatory response) perhaps allows bugs to multiply somehow, but

after a year on the Benicar, I seem to be doing well. My infection

symptoms are currently on the down swing. So I'm currently better

off than before, when sometimes even my upswings were worse than my

current downswings. But of course, I credit the majority of my

actual improvement to amx (antimicrobials), not Benicar. To me the

real improvement is a lessening of fatigue, as that's my most

debilitating symptom, although the migraines were pretty darned

debilitating. I'd hate to go there again.

penny

> > > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > >

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> > > >

> > > > penny

[Guest guest]

Penny I've had exactly the opposite experience of benicar and colds. I have

lyme/cfs and have been plagued by colds for years but got them less

frequently when I took benicar. I only took 40mg once a day though not the

full MP dose. My partner who also has lyme also found he had less colds on

the Moscowitz protocol.

If you look at Moscowitz site he is doing a study on the potential of ARBs

to lessen the frequency of colds. I think the study is still in progress so

there's no results yet but he seems to believe that this is another

potential benefit of low dose ARB's.

[infections] Re: New study on ARBs effectiveness in

arthritis

> We had some pretty intensive discussions on the Th1 and Th2 pathways

> in the past, and I think most people concluded that the two cannot

> be seperated so easily. That there's a lot of interaction.

>

> Suppression of both pathways would explain why I've suddenly started

> catching colds again and having difficulty shaking them, after many

> years of not catching any colds.

>

> I also believe that Benicar is a remarkable anti-inflammatory, and

> I'm so glad there's good research being done. I wouldn't be

> surprised at all if Sankyo's funding the research in Japan, since

> they're a Japanese company. Japan's known for pretty good research,

> too. I just hope the research moves to humans soon so that more

> people can start using it for arthritis. I have a good friend who's

> in severe arthritic pain, more so since stopping celebrex. I can't

> really recommend Benicar to her in a way that she can understand,

> and I certainly would never suggest that she follow the protocol

> described at mp.com. I will send her this article though, and tell

> her that I'm taking Benicar and getting a lot of relief from the

> pain. Perhaps her doctor could investigate.

>

> penny

>

>

>

>> > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

>> > >

>> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

>> >

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

>> > >

>> > > penny

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[Guest guest]

That's really interesting, . I don't know what's going on, but I

I've had two major colds since starting the Benicar, when I used to

catch none whatsoever (post CFS), although a couple of times, when I

was on intensive abx therapy, I also felt more susceptible to colds.

I could almost always fight them off with a lot of supplements. I'm

glad I was able to fight the last one off too. Pre-cfs, I caught

colds constantly, so perhaps it's just another aspect of an immune

dysregulation.

We talked a lot about how Th1 suppression (inflammatory cascade)

helps our immune system but haven't talked that much about Th2

suppression. With this recent japanese study showing that ARBs

affect both Th1 and Th2, perhaps we need to be.

Do you think Moscowitz knows about the cimetidine (tagament) and

it's potential for fighting viruses? Since he's been working with

viruses, that might be good for him to look into.

penny

<jl@m...> wrote:

I have lyme/cfs and have been plagued by colds for years but got

them less frequently when I took benicar. I only took 40mg once a

day though not the full MP dose. My partner who also has lyme also

found he had less colds on the Moscowitz protocol.

>

[Guest guest]

> >> > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> >> > >

> >> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> >> >

> >

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> >> > >

> >> > > penny

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> >

[Guest guest]

I think an important point to make about this discussion is that

VIRUSES and TOXINS express similar symptoms. It would be silly to

blame a virus when one isn't present and an actual antimicrobial can

have an impact on what feels like a viral problem.

> >> > > Pretty exciting stuff coming out of Japan.

> >> > >

> >> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> >> >

> >

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15934096 & query_hl=9

> >> > >

> >> > > penny

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[Guest guest]

I agree that we can mistake the two. When I got that cold in January,

it actually turned into some kind of bacterial and/or sinus fungal

infection. It wasn't just a cold that kept me down for 6 weeks. But

the cold led to the other problems, which is exactly what happened

when I was a kid. Colds turned to bronchitis and pneumonia.

penny

> I think an important point to make about this discussion is that

> VIRUSES and TOXINS express similar symptoms. It would be silly to

> blame a virus when one isn't present and an actual antimicrobial can

> have an impact on what feels like a viral problem.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Penny

>

> We talked a lot about how Th1 suppression (inflammatory cascade)

> helps our immune system but haven't talked that much about Th2

> suppression. With this recent japanese study showing that ARBs

> affect both Th1 and Th2, perhaps we need to be.

yeh I wish more was known on how ARBs affect the immune system. I was

taking 40mg of Benicar every night and it did seem to benefit my immune

system a bit but none of my other symptoms were improved so I stopped. If I

knew for certain that it was good for immunity I would continue to take it.

I do still take it for period pains though as I found that it completely

stops the terrible pains I have suffered since becomming ill with CFS. Pain

killers are no-where near as effective for me.

>

> Do you think Moscowitz knows about the cimetidine (tagament) and

> it's potential for fighting viruses? Since he's been working with

> viruses, that might be good for him to look into.

The tagamet info was really interesting. Thanks for posting it. I'm not

sure if Moscowitz would be interested as he is mainly promoting ARBs as he

has a patent on their off label usage and this is how he makes his money.

Still he may be interested from a scientific point of view. I have found

him to be quite personable when I have emailed him

>

> penny

>

>

> <jl@m...> wrote:

> I have lyme/cfs and have been plagued by colds for years but got

> them less frequently when I took benicar. I only took 40mg once a

> day though not the full MP dose. My partner who also has lyme also

> found he had less colds on the Moscowitz protocol.

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