Re: Herxheimer

[Guest guest]

Dura:

Herx is the Immune Systems cytokine cascade in response to the endo

toxins release when the spirochetes die en masse...

But I will concede research hasn't ID's just exactly what all those

toxins are... they use the word LPS-like. SEE REFERENCE #1

And mentioned before was the ability of some abx to increase or

supress the intensity of herx.

SEE REFERENCE #2

SEE REFERENCE #3 Ocular Lyme/Syphilis/Herx

ALthough- I think someone just posted a pretty good bunch of

abstracts on Herx and borrelia. But here they are anyway.

Here's a thought- have you considered that the outer surface

proteins of Lyme's membrane- which are lipoproteins , which activate

cytokines in their own right- might be the reason people feel bad

during a flare.

A distinction being between when the bugs alive and when they're

dying. Herx happens when a bunch die quickly.

__________________________________________________________

REFERENCE #1)

Folia Microbiol (Praha). 2004;49(5):625-9. Related Articles, Links

Immunochemical analysis of lipopolysaccharide-like component

extracted from Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato.

Schwarzova K, Ciznar I.

Institute of Preventive and Clinical Medicine, Slovak Health

University, Bratislava, Slovakia. virukats@...

Immunoelectrophoresis and its modifications were applied to analysis

of a lipopolysaccharide-like component (LPS-LC) extracted from

Borrelia garinii strains K24 and K48 isolated from Ixodes ricinus and

Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto strain B31. A modification of the

hot phenol-water method was used for isolation of LPS.

Immunoelectrophoresis (IE) and crossed immunoelectrophoresis (CIE) of

LPS-LC with polyclonal rabbit antisera revealed a pattern and

properties partially similar to LPS from other Gram-negative

bacteria. B. garinii LPS-LC formed in CIE a diffuse band extending

from the start to the anode. Similarly, the shape and position of the

band in IE did not show major differences from LPS of other Gram-

negative bacteria. The LPS-LC extracted from the three genomic groups

of B. burgdorferi sensu lato were found to have similar

immunochemical properties irrespective of their genotype origin.

PMID: 15702557 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

____________________________________________________________

Reference #2)

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2002 Jun;21(6):571-3.

Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction associated with ciprofloxacin

administration for tick-borne relapsing fever.

Webster G, Schiffman JD, Dosanjh AS, Amieva MR, Gans HA, Sectish TC.

Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University School of Medicine,

Palo Alto, CA, USA.

A 14-year-old girl was seen at a community clinic with a chief

complaint of abdominal pain and fevers and was treated with oral

ciprofloxacin for presumed pyelonephritis. She became tachycardic and

hypotensive after her first dose of antibiotic, and she developed

disseminated intravascular coagulation. She was admitted to our

hospital for presumed sepsis. Her outpatient peripheral blood smear

was reviewed, revealing spirochetes consistent with Borrelia sp. To

our knowledge this is the first reported case of the Jarisch-

Herxheimer reaction to ciprofloxacin.

Publication Types:

Case Reports ______________________________________________

REFERENCE #3

The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction in ocular syphilis.

Fathilah J, Choo MM.

Department of Ophthalmology, University Malaya Medical Center, 50603

Kuala Lumpur.

A patient with ocular syphilis is presented. She experienced

deterioration in vision following the commencement of treatment due

to a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction. This is a transient febrile illness

that can occur in patients after the first adequate dose of an anti-

microbial drug to treat infectious diseases such as syphilis, Lyme

disease and relapsing fever. However, a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction

occurring in a patient receiving treatment for ocular syphilis can be

serious, resulting in the rapid loss of vision.

Publication Types:

Case Reports

PMID: 14750386 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Penny, one thing you might keep in mind is that medicine advances.

The " original " definition for a herx was determined at the very

least, about 55 years ago. Herxheimer died in 1947. There were only

certain pathogens at the time known to cause a herx.

Since then they have come to realize that there are more organisms

called CWDs. These do not respond in any way similar to a typical,

previously identified organism. How the ABX actually eventually

causes their death is different, it isn't a direct attack. How these

organisms survive is totally different, EVERYTHING about them is

different.

As these various pathogens are discovered and the right ABX is found

to deal with them, will likely alter the difinition of a herx. BUT

only in regards to how long it might last. Just because whatever is

happening lasts more then a couple of weeks doesn't mean we aren't

still talking about a herx. It is likely a herx (toxins caused by

the die off, causing an exaserbation of symptoms), but of an

entirely different organism with a different life cycle and nature.

Not everytinng dies at the exact same rate.

There is no doubt that there are those who truly will have an

allergic reaction to certain ABX. But at the " Road Back Foundation "

where they have been using ABX for 20-25 years they have come to

realize that true allergic reactions aren't that common. When people

feel really sick from ABX even to the point of bringing on septic

shock it is often an EXTREME herx. They know for the most part that

the herx can be controled even in the most severe cases by simply

decreasing the ABX dose. All you want to do is get some sort of

reaction. It doesn't have to kill you.

There are many, many people over there that " thought " they were

allergic to ABX. After following the recommendations to move slow,

they have found that they were able to control the herx and slowly

increase their tolerance to the ABX they were sure was going to kill

them.

I think much of the problem is that mainstream medicine and sick

people in general freak out when they sometimes get sicker while on

ABX, they don't know what the heck is happening and have never heard

of a herx.

That was what happened to me, but, on investigation, none of the

things that happened to me were considered an allergic reation, but

they fit in line with a herx. An EXTREME herx without a doubt and it

may have been close to septic shock, but I have learned how to

control the herx and am now enjoying 95% remission. Had I sworn off

ABX from my first experience, I am certain, I would not have been

out dancing literally in the park last night.

> > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > Mayby tony has a point here.

> >

> > The name is not a very productive name when trying to figure out

> what happens.

> > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a herx.

> > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the body....

> whatever.

> >

> > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions and call

> that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life treatening ?

> >

> > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise language !

> > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some ideas.

> >

> > --

> > Per Sjöholm

> > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

<drgaftop@y...> wrote: " I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if

you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big rather

than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

accepted as a sign of healing.

I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I had all

the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known side

effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of the

brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light sensitivity,

weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening side

effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

Do you know how many people told me I was herxing???? To hang in

there???

Another minocycline side effect is to cause thyroid irregularities.

Thyroid irregularities can lead to heart problems (a thyroid storm

can kill you by causing a heart attack). I had this side effect as

well. Ended up in the ER. Do you realize how many people talk

about " heart herxes " these days as if they're nothing to worry

about?

This is exactly the point --we should not ignore symptoms assuming

they're " herxes " and assume we're getting better when we're not.

penny

[Guest guest]

DrGaftop:

So you must think the body must experience the Herx to get better?

If so, can you explain why you think that?

Brab

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if

> you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big rather

> than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

>

> No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

> accepted as a sign of healing.

>

> I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I had all

> the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known side

> effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of the

> brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

sensitivity,

> weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening side

> effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

>

> Do you know how many people told me I was herxing???? To hang in

> there???

>

> Another minocycline side effect is to cause thyroid irregularities.

> Thyroid irregularities can lead to heart problems (a thyroid storm

> can kill you by causing a heart attack). I had this side effect as

> well. Ended up in the ER. Do you realize how many people talk

> about " heart herxes " these days as if they're nothing to worry

> about?

>

> This is exactly the point --we should not ignore symptoms assuming

> they're " herxes " and assume we're getting better when we're not.

>

> penny

[Guest guest]

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if you were turning off an

excellent opportunity to herx big rather than saving your life from

an adverse reaction. Quite possibly the big herx's would be the

eventual life savers. "

A year ago I took 2 doses of Flagyl (only) and ended up in a 2 month+

flare. During this flare I had difficulties with all ADL's, could not

get on/off a chair, lost 20 pounds (am lean to begin with) etc. I

struggled with your exact hypothesis; should I continue with the

Flagyl or not? Is this 'herx' the big one that is going to see me

improved at the end of treatment? I am now glad that I stopped as I

have extreme deterioration several joints, especially my knees has

resulted in very limited walking ability.

More recently I was on Ketek and the 2nd round caused a 3 1/2 hour

episode of constant irregularly irregular beats. My LLMD today said

that this may be due to a prolonged PR or QT interval, either way

life threatening and D/C'd the Ketek and would not order another

macrolide at this time.

I do have half a life so I guess I'm not as willing to risk as

someone else with different circumstances.

Robyn

[Guest guest]

If you believe we have an infection then it would be foolish to

sound like the other guy. When you have an infectiuon and your HEART

is showing symptoms of this infection ie. low blood pressure,

soreness in r3gion and a few others I can't think of right now, it's

pretty clear you don't do bacteriostatic antibiotics because they

will not help you. If you want to learn what therapy to use for

heart infection go off and read about howthe job is done in

pubmed.Normally high dose dual therapy delpending on what organisms

they feel are involved, they wouldn't expect you to do well on mino

or doxy and would expext complications using that type of therapy.

> > Using the right term is VERY important.

> >

> > And I AM talking about sticking to the J-H definition. Most

> aren't,

> > that's the problem, and as a result, we see people suffering

> through

> > all kinds of things that may have nothing to do with a Herx.

> >

> > This became glaringly apparent with a recent protocol where

people

> > were being told they were " herxing " , when in fact, they were

> having

> > severe reactions that have nothing to do with the J-H

definition,

> OR

> > they were having completely unrelated health issues, which may

or

> > may not have been triggered by the protocol they were trying

> > desperately to stick with.

> >

> > This idea is promoted heavily that the only way people can gauge

> > improvement is if they " herx " With no idea of what that means,

> > because the term is used incorrectly. People seem to think it

> means

> > feeling really crappy for a long time, which isn't right. So

> people

> > who are suffering and sick are still reporting " great effects "

of

> > various protocols simply because they feel crappy, when they

don't

> > know for certain if they're responding well or actually

responding

> > badly. And then other people sign on, because someone feels like

> > crap on a protocol??? What's wrong with this entire scenario?

> >

> > I was on months of i.v. abx. I either felt nothing, or I felt

> > massive improvements (with minor discomfort) or I had very bad

> > reactions to certain drugs, one of which I'm positive was simply

a

> > bad drug reaction (identified side effects), not a " herx " . Even

if

> > it were in fact a " herx " , the drug felt like it was going to

kill

> > me, so I had to stop it.

> >

> > This idea that proliferates across these boards, that you're

doing

> > the right thing ONLY if you're " herxing " (i.e. feeling really

bad)

> > is very misleading, and could be dangerous to people's health.

> >

> > penny

[Guest guest]

Jelly I ahven't read the majority of this but when some9one died

before the introduction of antibiotics how is it he holds all the

aces.

tony

> > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > >

> > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to figure

out

> > what happens.

> > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a herx.

> > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the body....

> > whatever.

> > >

> > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions and call

> > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life treatening ?

> > >

> > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

language !

> > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some ideas.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Per Sjöholm

> > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

swelling of head, Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light sensitivity,

weakness, red left eye + some more is symptoms I get when NOT on abx and on

abx.

The differens with low dos tetracycline it is much more easy.

On Massive ABX I can get reaktions for 18 days outof 21 days(last massive oct

2004)

On low dos every other day it changes with 24 hours and that is much more

manageble.

I belive that the road to get back is to keep somekind of wellness in the

situation.

If you get to violent reactions your body and immun system is taking a to severe

beating.

Your controll system get unstable and anything might happened.

I maybe wrong but time will tell. My neurological symptoms has been getting

worse and my from the view

of my physioterapist I am getting better on low dos abx and some more things.

Acupuncture on strong points seem to work.

If I combine acupuncture with low dose abx every other day I get reactions like

head swelling...

Only low dose abx is OK

Only acupuncture is OK

I believe that our controll systems is unstable and that has to be considered

with all treatment.

/Per

penny wrote:

> <drgaftop@y...> wrote: " I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if

> you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big rather

> than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

>

> No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

> accepted as a sign of healing.

>

> I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I had all

> the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known side

> effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of the

> brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light sensitivity,

> weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening side

> effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

--

Per Sjöholm

Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Robyn:

You again cite a very important point. In your case, an abx set

you way back. That happened to two of my Lyme friends (seizures).

There needs to be a way (tests maybe that haven't been developed

yet) that distinguished true adverse drug reactions from true die-off

symtpoms.

Untill that day comes (and it'll be a long time coming, considering

conventional medicine doesn't understand occult infection)- we are

not going to know what we are experiencing when we go down hill on

abx. Is it good ? (as in the case of Jelly's experience) or is a bad

(in the case of Robyn's)?

That's why it matters what's happening.

And why it's so damn hard to decide what to do.

If I have visual loss, and I use an abx that causes more-

I'll stop. But if I have muscle pain, and an abx causes more- I

may continue...

These discussions usuallly end talking about risk -

it's all about risks, and what we're willing to risk, and that's an

individual decision, untill there are more answers to what's really

going on.

Barb

>

> " I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if you were turning off an

> excellent opportunity to herx big rather than saving your life from

> an adverse reaction. Quite possibly the big herx's would be the

> eventual life savers. "

>

> A year ago I took 2 doses of Flagyl (only) and ended up in a 2

month+

> flare. During this flare I had difficulties with all ADL's, could

not

> get on/off a chair, lost 20 pounds (am lean to begin with) etc. I

> struggled with your exact hypothesis; should I continue with the

> Flagyl or not? Is this 'herx' the big one that is going to see me

> improved at the end of treatment? I am now glad that I stopped as I

> have extreme deterioration several joints, especially my knees has

> resulted in very limited walking ability.

>

> More recently I was on Ketek and the 2nd round caused a 3 1/2 hour

> episode of constant irregularly irregular beats. My LLMD today said

> that this may be due to a prolonged PR or QT interval, either way

> life threatening and D/C'd the Ketek and would not order another

> macrolide at this time.

>

> I do have half a life so I guess I'm not as willing to risk as

> someone else with different circumstances.

>

> Robyn

[Guest guest]

Yes, I have been lead to believe along those lines.

http://www.arthritistrust.org/Articles/The%20Herxheimer%20Effect.pdf.

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder

if

> > you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big rather

> > than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

> >

> > No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

> > accepted as a sign of healing.

> >

> > I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I had

all

> > the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known side

> > effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of

the

> > brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

> sensitivity,

> > weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening side

> > effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

> >

> > Do you know how many people told me I was herxing???? To hang in

> > there???

> >

> > Another minocycline side effect is to cause thyroid

irregularities.

> > Thyroid irregularities can lead to heart problems (a thyroid

storm

> > can kill you by causing a heart attack). I had this side effect

as

> > well. Ended up in the ER. Do you realize how many people talk

> > about " heart herxes " these days as if they're nothing to worry

> > about?

> >

> > This is exactly the point --we should not ignore symptoms

assuming

> > they're " herxes " and assume we're getting better when we're not.

> >

> > penny

[Guest guest]

The inability of some folks to take treatment to the extreme due to

extreme reactions to relatively small doses of meds is most

unfortunate indeed. If I made it sound feasable for all, it was not

my intent. My intention was to impart the " do it if you absolutely

think you can get away with it " philosophy. Special circumstances

are there for some, and hopefully answers will eventually be there.

In the meantime, I feel that it is important for those that have

reactions to have an LLMD that also specializes in internal medicine.

>

> " I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder if you were turning off an

> excellent opportunity to herx big rather than saving your life

from

> an adverse reaction. Quite possibly the big herx's would be the

> eventual life savers. "

>

> A year ago I took 2 doses of Flagyl (only) and ended up in a 2

month+

> flare. During this flare I had difficulties with all ADL's, could

not

> get on/off a chair, lost 20 pounds (am lean to begin with) etc. I

> struggled with your exact hypothesis; should I continue with the

> Flagyl or not? Is this 'herx' the big one that is going to see me

> improved at the end of treatment? I am now glad that I stopped as

I

> have extreme deterioration several joints, especially my knees has

> resulted in very limited walking ability.

>

> More recently I was on Ketek and the 2nd round caused a 3 1/2

hour

> episode of constant irregularly irregular beats. My LLMD today

said

> that this may be due to a prolonged PR or QT interval, either way

> life threatening and D/C'd the Ketek and would not order another

> macrolide at this time.

>

> I do have half a life so I guess I'm not as willing to risk as

> someone else with different circumstances.

>

> Robyn

[Guest guest]

If I recall correctly, Herxheimer was experimenting with sulfer

compounds among other chemicals when he discovered the die-off

effect. Whatever it was, it may not have been abx as we now know

them.

> > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > >

> > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to figure

> out

> > > what happens.

> > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a herx.

> > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the body....

> > > whatever.

> > > >

> > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions and

call

> > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

treatening ?

> > > >

> > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> language !

> > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some

ideas.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

I believe the worse I can make myself feel with the therapy the more

damage I am doing to the disease. However, the problem is definitely

the question, " what am I doing to my body " ?

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder

if

> > you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big rather

> > than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

> >

> > No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

> > accepted as a sign of healing.

> >

> > I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I had

all

> > the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known side

> > effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of

the

> > brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

sensitivity,

> > weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening side

> > effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

>

>

> --

> Per Sjöholm

> Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Certainly medicine " advances " . So do misconceptions. The big one

here is the idea, " I know a drug is working only if I feel

terrible. " This is a common notion promoted as undisputable in

certain groups. I think it's a dangerous one, based mainly on

popular opinion. I don't find this idea on the majority of infection

boards, but I'm afraid it's spreading because of the conviction of

those who do believe it. As a result more people are buying the " no

pain no gain " idiom and are perhaps being less careful than they

should be.

Successful treatment may cause some minor discomfort, but wrong

treatment can also cause discomfort, and worse, serious health

consequences. People would be smart to keep that in mind and not

attribute every negative reaction to " herx " .

Have you ever had pneumonia? Or serious bronchitis, or strep throat,

where your body's been over run by a particular bacteria? And when

you take the right abx they start dying en masse very rapidly, while

simultaneously you start to feel better very rapidly?

That's how I feel on abx most of the time. Sure, I believe that

toxins are being released as the bugs die, and sure, I have some

minimal side effects (usually in the beginning). Maybe diarrhea,

maybe itching, etc. But I don't look at feeling worse, especially

long term, as proof a drug is working. Proof to me is that I

experience some kind of improvement. Feeling like I'm dying, or

having serious heart scares does not indicate to me that I'm on the

right abx. If my heart does start acting up, it means to me that I

need to add another abx to deal with the bugs being stirred up, or I

need to stop the one that's doing the stirring and find something

more appropriate to knock the bacterial load down.

penny

> > <herranenb@h...> wrote:

> > > Penny, one thing you might keep in mind is that medicine

> advances.

[Guest guest]

So why give this guy any credit on his poor theory. I can disprove

it patient after patient if I were put to task.I would change the

environment of the bacteria and switch it off. When bacteria meet

certain needs, co2, low level stimulants they fire up switching them

off by changing environment getting oxygen, not feeding them

inflammation foods, all have the potential to stop the so called

herx so if I were doing badly and intro'd a bacteriacidal antibiotic

and stopped the herx it would be an absolute joke this whole

herxheimer theory would it not.

Actually next time your herxing get onto an oxygen bottle and if the

oxygen molecules can get to all the sites the herx stops.

tony

> > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > >

> > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to

figure

> > out

> > > > what happens.

> > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a herx.

> > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

body....

> > > > whatever.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions and

> call

> > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> treatening ?

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> > language !

> > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some

> ideas.

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

DAvid

I measure bacterial colonies and believe me just because you

suffered doesn't mean you made any progress. I actually measure

higher bacterial counts when ill.My whole treatment strategy was

alway's get the colony count down heavy, medium, sparse, no growth

is the only thing I know to do.

tony

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder

> if

> > > you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big

rather

> > > than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

> > >

> > > No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being widely

> > > accepted as a sign of healing.

> > >

> > > I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I

had

> all

> > > the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known

side

> > > effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling of

> the

> > > brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

> sensitivity,

> > > weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening

side

> > > effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

> >

> >

> > --

> > Per Sjöholm

> > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Early in my disease my allergist started me on long term biaxin

for " something " . I ended up stopping that treatment due to

ignorance, opting for self treatment with flagyl. After a few weeks

I coughed up gobs of phlem while in bed for two days. I could only

crawl to the bathroom. I think this was a herx, and my first real

one. I also think I had walking pnumonia from the mycoplasma. One

thing is certain, certain bacteria (some possibly unknown, per Dr.

Mirkin), lyme and mycoplasma don't excactly act the same, either in

symptom or treatment/herx, etc (though they do have some

similiarities). I am thankful I don't have lyme, as it seems very

difficult to treat.

> > > > Penny, one thing you might keep in mind is that medicine

> > advances.

[Guest guest]

My doctor believes in it and looks for it. She is a widely published

CFS doctor. I have had them, made it through them, felt better on

the other side of them, and seen excellent liver and kidney tests

after having them. Why should I not believe in the herx Tony? If you

read about it and have one as I have you would likely be inclined to

believe such a thing exists. The problem is they apparently are not

the same for all organisms, and some organisms may not display a

herx with treatment. Furthermore, I am inclined to believe that it

is very likely that many here have pathogenic organisms yet to be

discovered. How might the herx be assessed for something unknown?

> > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to

> figure

> > > out

> > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

herx.

> > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> body....

> > > > > whatever.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions

and

> > call

> > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > treatening ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> > > language !

> > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some

> > ideas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Tony you said, " Actually next time your herxing get onto an oxygen

bottle and if the

> oxygen molecules can get to all the sites the herx stops. "

In my case that couldn't be further from the truth. I have used

oxygen therapy. I had huge 5 foot tall bootles of oxygen delivered

to my home. Several at a time, because I went through them so fast.

I used a rebreather and took in 10 lpm for 1 hour every other day. I

was supposed to do it every day but couldn't bring myself to do it.

You know why, it made me feel like crap. I would get achey and

fatigued within hours. Actually the fasted " herx " I've ever

experienced. My coagulation would worsen and I wwould turn blue on

my feet. Nothing but pure oxygen. What do " you " think happened?

Mycoplasma, and Lyme they are CWDs and THRIVE in low oxygen

environments. I hit them with oxygen and then I feel like crap, what

is your explanation? I don't feel better right away like you just

told everyone we will. Over time, the discomfort became less and

less. They use oxygen to treat Lyme in hyperbaric chambers and

people usually end up in bed for a bit afterwards, certainly not

because they feel fantastic. You are waaaay off.

You keep telling us what you can prove. Put your money where your

mouth is and if I may quote you, " SHOW ME THE MONEY! " Give us some

data.

> > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to

> figure

> > > out

> > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

herx.

> > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> body....

> > > > > whatever.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions

and

> > call

> > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > treatening ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> > > language !

> > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has some

> > ideas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Tony I have suffered, I have learned how to minimize the suffering.

I don't think suffering is all that productive, in fact I believe it

can be counter productive due to inflammation. The RBF has believed

that for many years. But I have made progress, you keep ignoring

that. I have 95% remission. Where are you, I have asked before but

you don't answer, are you in remission?

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but

wonder

> > if

> > > > you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big

> rather

> > > > than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

> > > >

> > > > No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being

widely

> > > > accepted as a sign of healing.

> > > >

> > > > I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline. I

> had

> > all

> > > > the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a known

> side

> > > > effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes swelling

of

> > the

> > > > brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

> > sensitivity,

> > > > weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life threatening

> side

> > > > effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Per Sjöholm

> > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Reserach from thousands of cfs patients and there bacteria is pretty

convincing stuff. I personally have had about 100 samples,

sinus,hair, throat.The newcastle team has done the only thing I

would want anyone to do -THAT IS PUT US UNDER THE MICROSCOPE they

studied 1000's of samples stool, sinus bacteria of cfs/fibro

patients also observed urine samples. Nothings what it's supposed to

be. tarello a vet who uses the best weapon the PARASITIC BLOOD FILM

see's our problem clearly. Ehrlichia and babesia are also diagnosed

by him.You guys are chasing what?You've got oral bacteria in your

stool, it isn't there in normal controls, plus a half dozen other

clear cut bacterial problems and you want to treat mycoplamsa's and

the like?

I believe that after feeling violently ill and you improve, you

alway's feel better, or you die, this has happened to me a 100 plus

times. I had alway's felt that when ill I should get blood drawn

and compare what is going on with my blood draw when I am at my

worst.

I believe your improvement is due to the clean up of your red cells

and platelets that end up being cleaned up possably by your spleen.I

would think that early in the so called herx your blood is at it's

thickest and because it gets addressed at the end of a cycle your

blood would be thinner.Again I could stop this process of being

undermedicated by medicating more. It took fifty so called herxes

before I realised what is going on.So I'm sorry to disappoint you

but I strongly believe that it's a croc that may swing you from

violently ill to better but there's no guarantee anything positive

is happening.

> > > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to

> > figure

> > > > out

> > > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

> herx.

> > > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> > body....

> > > > > > whatever.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions

> and

> > > call

> > > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > > treatening ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> > > > language !

> > > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has

some

> > > ideas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Jelly

You have a myriad of diagnosis and you also did chaemo for cancer,

what do you want me to do for you. I address all aspects of my

ilness, inflammation causing foods, inflammation causing

environemnts are alway's high on my to avoid list.I realise that

bacteria need a certain amount of CO2 to start there engines, if you

stop them from latching on to your exhalled CO2's they are just

normal flora giving you no problems. How you used your oxygen

bottle, how you control your surrounding's, what you eat are also

just as important. When you progress to cancer your infection is

bigger than texas. Anyway I suppose I should just give my tip and

stop there.

The tip of the day is stop your bacteria from latching onto your

exhalled Co2's.How you do that is paramount because if it's not done

correctly it doesn't work.Using many facets of therapy not one on

it's own are also important in massive infections.

> > > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying to

> > figure

> > > > out

> > > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

> herx.

> > > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> > body....

> > > > > > whatever.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get reaktions

> and

> > > call

> > > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > > treatening ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more pricise

> > > > language !

> > > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has

some

> > > ideas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

I don't have an ache or pain anywhere after suffering about 2 years

of fibromyalgia. I am just conditioning myself to get back into the

workforce by painting a 2 bedroom house my mother owns.My only

problem at the moment is that my dental sites, wisdom tooth

extraction sites are pretty rotten they don't give me any problems

but I just know they need clearing and cleaning so I continue my

therapy targetting them.I also believe that chaemo is a super

charged form of antibiotioc therapy and believe that some people's

infections need to be attacked with something equivalent to

chaemo.Actually you can get cancer antibiotics some of the tough

tuberculosis antibiotics come from the cancer abx group.

I am bascially back to my old self at this point but realise that

the age related ilnesses are all part and parcel of the autoimmune

ilnesses. So the challenge to keeping yourself well also boils down

to your lifestyle choices, if you played sport till old age and have

bad knees and a few other spots that play up due to old injuries.

they also form part of your ilness that also needs addressing.

" I'm sorry, but I can't help but

> wonder

> > > if

> > > > > you were turning off an excellent opportunity to herx big

> > rather

> > > > > than saving your life from an adverse reaction.

> > > > >

> > > > > No, see, this is the problem with the word " herx " being

> widely

> > > > > accepted as a sign of healing.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had the classic signs of being poisoned by Minocycline.

I

> > had

> > > all

> > > > > the symptoms of Pseudotumor cerebri, for one thing, a

known

> > side

> > > > > effect of minocycline. Pseudotumor cerebri causes

swelling

> of

> > > the

> > > > > brain. Severe head pain, blurring vision, extreme light

> > > sensitivity,

> > > > > weakness, vomiting, etc. These are listed, life

threatening

> > side

> > > > > effects of minocycline that should not be brushed off.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

WHAT are you talking about???? I have never had cancer, so I have

never been on chemo. I don't have a myriad of diagnosises. I have

been diagnosed with FM/CFS and I know I have 2 active strains of

Mycoplasma. I have treated those with 2 abx, targeting Mycoplasma. I

have herxed in varying degrees and am in 95% remission. These

particular abx ALSO happen to work on treating Lyme which I am now

pursuing with my kids. You must have rolled up the whole health

history of my family into one and stuck it on me.

How I used my oxygen bottles was controled by a fancy valve. I

didn't just open a bottle and take a wiff. It's metered. I do as much

as I can to control my environment, my own personal space. That's

all I can do.

I am happy for you that you are symptom free. You have targeted

staph and I targeted Mycoplasma. We both had a great outcome. I have

been in remission longer then you, and I truly hope that it

continues for both of us. The point is clearly, we aren't talking

about any 1 pathogen. Even though what I did is not what you are

trying to convince everyone is the ONE and only path, I am in great

shape, symptom free, in remission. Even you can't argue with

success. I know a few others who are in remission and they weren't

targeting staph either.

> > > > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying

to

> > > figure

> > > > > out

> > > > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

> > herx.

> > > > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> > > body....

> > > > > > > whatever.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get

reaktions

> > and

> > > > call

> > > > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > > > treatening ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more

pricise

> > > > > language !

> > > > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has

> some

> > > > ideas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Actually, I am looking form babesia and ehrlichiosis. From what I

understand it is pretty common to look for these when looking for

Lyme. I think I am a very strong candidate for babesia.

Tony, you said, " So I'm sorry to disappoint you

> but I strongly believe that it's a croc that may swing you from

> violently ill to better but there's no guarantee anything positive

> is happening. " Is there any guarantee anything positive happened

to you??

> > > > > > > > Herxheimer or not herxheimer ?

> > > > > > > > Mayby tony has a point here.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The name is not a very productive name when trying

to

> > > figure

> > > > > out

> > > > > > > what happens.

> > > > > > > > People can die of a herxheimer, and you can't cure a

> > herx.

> > > > > > > > Or you just get a red mark on the upperpart of the

> > > body....

> > > > > > > whatever.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you do an abx and recognize that you get

reaktions

> > and

> > > > call

> > > > > > > that a herx, what is that meaning ?

> > > > > > > > When is a herx a mere reaktion and when is it life

> > > > treatening ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I suggest our discussions here require a more

pricise

> > > > > language !

> > > > > > > > I don't have any answer what to use, maybe Tony has

> some

> > > > ideas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Per Sjöholm

> > > > > > > > Stockholm, Sweden