Re: Bb isolated from dogs after 30 days high-dose abx

[Guest guest]

Well, much as I like Tony I guess I am glad hes not writing the lyme

entries for the 3000 pp reference books used by ID docs.

But the whole " easy to catch hard to cure " thing you get there from

ol' Steere, topped off with a flourish of psychologization is worse. I

guess docs maybe read those ref books more than the journal

literature, that would explain alot.

I really cant unriddle those people...

> > This is a paper I hadnt seen. Leave it to the vets of Cornell to

> point

> > out reality to the MDs... good thing weve got a crack team of

> BSers to

> > deftly brush it under the rug.

> >

> > The doxy-group dogs took 20 mg/kg/d, which is like me sucking down

> > 1200 mg of doxy per day (however, dogs may excrete it faster or

> > something... I dont know... but the investigators did measure the

> > plasma drug levels, by bioassay, to make sure they were

> sufficient).

> >

> > One of six doxy-treated dogs, kept in isolation, developed

> symptomatic

> > arthritis despite the 30-day treatment! And remained culture+ and

> PCR+.

> >

> > This pisses me right off!

> >

> > ==============================

> >

> > J Clin Microbiol. 1997 Jan;35(1):111-6.

> >

> > Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in experimentally infected

> > dogs after antibiotic treatment.

> >

> > Straubinger RK, Summers BA, Chang YF, Appel MJ.

> >

> > A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, College of

> Veterinary

> > Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA.

> > rks4@c...

> >

> > In specific-pathogen-free dogs experimentally infected with

> > Borrelia burgdorferi by tick exposure, treatment with high doses of

> > amoxicillin or doxycycline for 30 days diminished but failed to

> > eliminate persistent infection. Although joint disease was

> prevented

> > or cured in five of five amoxicillin- and five of six

> > doxycycline-treated dogs, skin punch biopsies and multiple tissues

> > from necropsy samples remained PCR positive and B. burgdorferi was

> > isolated from one amoxicillin- and two doxycycline-treated dogs

> > following antibiotic treatment. In contrast, B. burgdorferi was

> > isolated from six of six untreated infected control dogs and joint

> > lesions were found in four of these six dogs. Serum antibody

> levels to

> > B. burgdorferi in all dogs declined after antibiotic treatment.

> > Negative antibody levels were reached in four of six doxycycline-

> and

> > four of six amoxicillin-treated dogs. However, in dogs that were

> kept

> > in isolation for 6 months after antibiotic treatment was

> discontinued,

> > antibody levels began to rise again, presumably in response to

> > proliferation of the surviving pool of spirochetes. Antibody

> levels in

> > untreated infected control dogs remained high.

> >

> > PMID: 8968890

[Guest guest]

People that know me know that I don't make too many errors.I was

laughed off many forums and arguements would erupt when I would say

your stomach and lower intestinal complaints are equivalent to

PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE. This 3 years ago would leave everyone

stunned, is this aussie crazy or something..

Well today it doesn't look so crazy saying you have an inflammatory

problem in your gut.

I also studied 100 plus samples from patients, I live in australia

and after 17 years of studying the bacterial samples from thousands

of sufferers, from sinus, stool and throat you shouldn't point a

finger at someone with his hand on the pulse of chronic diseases.

Newcastle university has done the closest thing to correct procedure

by testing people's samples and asking hundreds of symptom questions.

When you have an 800,000 dollar a year fiscal statement- this over

17 years equates to many thousands tested. Looking for TOXINS when

you have a neurological problem is smarter than trying to point the

finger of blame on a spirochete.

Your symptoms IMO opinion stem from an erosion of your sinus cavity

leaving bacteria to run wild on your brain and nervous system. So

when you next go see your lyme literate doc and she is gracious

enough to put a finger on your problem go and get your head scanned

correctly by a few smarter radiographers that I'm sure penny can put

you onto and stop frying your brain.

You could also have a pet hate of this aussie and his disbelief that

comes from studying bacterial samples, but we have just as many ill

per head of population and there's no ticks or lyme bacteria to

discover, yet the ill still roll in.

I also use my phone finger to contact all corners of the globe. I

don't sit here practising my writing skills or correcting typo's,

this is the only way to acquire information. When you have a

bacterial problem and you hunt out and make friends with your cities

leading microbiologist, working in our largest pathology lab, you

ain't such a dud.

You see most of life's ills come from bacteria that's already there.

Oh! you would look differently at things if you discovered the

bacteria frying your brain are producing toxic shock syndrome toxins.

tony

> > This is a paper I hadnt seen. Leave it to the vets of Cornell to

> point

> > out reality to the MDs... good thing weve got a crack team of

> BSers to

> > deftly brush it under the rug.

> >

> > The doxy-group dogs took 20 mg/kg/d, which is like me sucking

down

> > 1200 mg of doxy per day (however, dogs may excrete it faster or

> > something... I dont know... but the investigators did measure the

> > plasma drug levels, by bioassay, to make sure they were

> sufficient).

> >

> > One of six doxy-treated dogs, kept in isolation, developed

> symptomatic

> > arthritis despite the 30-day treatment! And remained culture+

and

> PCR+.

> >

> > This pisses me right off!

> >

> > ==============================

> >

> > J Clin Microbiol. 1997 Jan;35(1):111-6.

> >

> > Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in experimentally

infected

> > dogs after antibiotic treatment.

> >

> > Straubinger RK, Summers BA, Chang YF, Appel MJ.

> >

> > A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, College of

> Veterinary

> > Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA.

> > rks4@c...

> >

> > In specific-pathogen-free dogs experimentally infected with

> > Borrelia burgdorferi by tick exposure, treatment with high doses

of

> > amoxicillin or doxycycline for 30 days diminished but failed to

> > eliminate persistent infection. Although joint disease was

> prevented

> > or cured in five of five amoxicillin- and five of six

> > doxycycline-treated dogs, skin punch biopsies and multiple

tissues

> > from necropsy samples remained PCR positive and B. burgdorferi

was

> > isolated from one amoxicillin- and two doxycycline-treated dogs

> > following antibiotic treatment. In contrast, B. burgdorferi was

> > isolated from six of six untreated infected control dogs and

joint

> > lesions were found in four of these six dogs. Serum antibody

> levels to

> > B. burgdorferi in all dogs declined after antibiotic treatment.

> > Negative antibody levels were reached in four of six doxycycline-

> and

> > four of six amoxicillin-treated dogs. However, in dogs that were

> kept

> > in isolation for 6 months after antibiotic treatment was

> discontinued,

> > antibody levels began to rise again, presumably in response to

> > proliferation of the surviving pool of spirochetes. Antibody

> levels in

> > untreated infected control dogs remained high.

> >

> > PMID: 8968890

[Guest guest]

Tony, I don't disagree with this comment at all: " You see most of

life's ills come from bacteria that's already there.

Oh! you would look differently at things if you discovered the

bacteria frying your brain are producing toxic shock syndrome

toxins. "

Persoanlly, IMHO, you are right on, dead on. BUT, you are still

focusing on what ailes you as if it is exactly what ailes the rest

of us. There are no doubt 100s of bacteria and any combo of these.

Here in the US, Lyme is also a possibility. I think it was you who

said we shouldn't just be shooting with an elephant gun, but find

out what the pathogens are that we have and get ther right ABX.

Right?

I am not 100% sure of anything except that I do have Mycoplasma. I

believe I have other bacterial loads as well, undesicoved yet,

because there maybe is no test still. But Mycos were a sure thing. I

used the ABX for Mycos and I am WELL, 95% remission, symptom free,

whatever you want to call it. Pathogens are at the bottom of all of

this.

I also believe that these cause a tremendous toxic situation. I was

incredibaly toxic and I LOOKED IT. That toxic waste is gone since I

treated the way I did. Where is what I have done wrong in your

opinion? It isn't what you did, but I used far less meds and I am

well?

> > > This is a paper I hadnt seen. Leave it to the vets of Cornell

to

> > point

> > > out reality to the MDs... good thing weve got a crack team of

> > BSers to

> > > deftly brush it under the rug.

> > >

> > > The doxy-group dogs took 20 mg/kg/d, which is like me sucking

> down

> > > 1200 mg of doxy per day (however, dogs may excrete it faster or

> > > something... I dont know... but the investigators did measure

the

> > > plasma drug levels, by bioassay, to make sure they were

> > sufficient).

> > >

> > > One of six doxy-treated dogs, kept in isolation, developed

> > symptomatic

> > > arthritis despite the 30-day treatment! And remained culture+

> and

> > PCR+.

> > >

> > > This pisses me right off!

> > >

> > > ==============================

> > >

> > > J Clin Microbiol. 1997 Jan;35(1):111-6.

> > >

> > > Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in experimentally

> infected

> > > dogs after antibiotic treatment.

> > >

> > > Straubinger RK, Summers BA, Chang YF, Appel MJ.

> > >

> > > A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, College of

> > Veterinary

> > > Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA.

> > > rks4@c...

> > >

> > > In specific-pathogen-free dogs experimentally infected with

> > > Borrelia burgdorferi by tick exposure, treatment with high

doses

> of

> > > amoxicillin or doxycycline for 30 days diminished but failed to

> > > eliminate persistent infection. Although joint disease was

> > prevented

> > > or cured in five of five amoxicillin- and five of six

> > > doxycycline-treated dogs, skin punch biopsies and multiple

> tissues

> > > from necropsy samples remained PCR positive and B. burgdorferi

> was

> > > isolated from one amoxicillin- and two doxycycline-treated dogs

> > > following antibiotic treatment. In contrast, B. burgdorferi was

> > > isolated from six of six untreated infected control dogs and

> joint

> > > lesions were found in four of these six dogs. Serum antibody

> > levels to

> > > B. burgdorferi in all dogs declined after antibiotic treatment.

> > > Negative antibody levels were reached in four of six

doxycycline-

>

> > and

> > > four of six amoxicillin-treated dogs. However, in dogs that

were

> > kept

> > > in isolation for 6 months after antibiotic treatment was

> > discontinued,

> > > antibody levels began to rise again, presumably in response to

> > > proliferation of the surviving pool of spirochetes. Antibody

> > levels in

> > > untreated infected control dogs remained high.

> > >

> > > PMID: 8968890

[Guest guest]

Jelly

Firstly the fact that you got well easily doesn't surprise me. I

expect many with great bones and wonderfull veins and arteries are

absolutely prime candidates for a quick exist from these DD's.I

alway's say you look at yourself very carefully so that your not

surprised that you haven't recovered as easily as the MP man.When

you say you succesfully did mycoplasma therapy you actually

succesfully did common flora therapy to boot. I know that strictly

religious very ill- 50 in fact from canada- that did the mycoplasma

protocol saw no improvement possably 1 or 2 yet many complained

about getting worse.So you can scream from the rafters about

succesfull mycoplasma therapy but you must know within yurself it

MUST BE 100% correct your diagnosis,and the outcome,it can't be a

maybe ??? I know that the whole medical community puts a HUGE MAYBE

on this mycoplasma thing.

I mention the toxic shock because I strongly feel the toxins

expressed are large in quantity giving seizures and locking up limbs.

I only suffered very stiff neck (meningitis / encephalitis). When

you've gone the whole nine yards(seizing) toxin expression possably

toxic shock toxin expression sounds very high.I'm afraid the

mechanisms of ilness ain't clear cut by the myco group. I tend to

believe that your normal bacteria have many L form,small colony

variants,mutating into other things,and a whole host of tricks

overlooked by these money grubbing mycoplasma testers. You really

can't get on the phone to mycoplasma testers and talk turkey,they

tend to be elusive,possably due to there own belief in the true flaw

of doing this stuff.

My buddies in ths states many that have done path tests and

specified myco testing really get left with a sour taste about what

is truly going on.(they basically give it thumbs down)

Secondly I really put lots of effort and thought and communication

into what is going on and if you guys took your blinkers off and

looked around you'd notice and appreciate this disease from a new

perspective.The majority of the community is suff4ering from

autoimmune of varying degree's. Speaking to one of the proffesors at

the univeristy of newcastle with 17 years experience,one of the

stand outs before dropping ill was a course of antibiotics. There's

no mention of tickbite,or this that and the kitchen sink. SIMPLY ALL

THE PERSON RECALLS IS HAVING HAD A COUSRE OF ANTIBIOTICS AND KEELING

OVER INTO THIS AUTOIMMUNE ILNESS.VISITING THE CANDIDA FORUM MANY

MENTION THERE PIMPLE ANTIBIOTIC USAGE THAT KEELED THEM OVER.

Yeah Lyme can keel you over, but take offyour blinkers because it

needs science and discussion not pulling out articles about how this

hides and that hides. I actually got excited when I saw andy

wright's simple blood smear of lyme because that's it,simple,large

spirochetes, instead of arguing with me start doing the blood smears

and getting an idea of quantity of bacteria and symptom expression.

If you see time and time again that you feel shocking and have

hundreds of spirochetes in the field of view of a microscope you can

gauge what your doing is right and get onto the freeway of healing.

There's someone in an alternative field with in reach of your home

if you hunt them down that have this type of ability.I know three

were pointed out to me a few years ago by a slightly alternative

doc that were all very close to home.

Oh another thing that comes out of the states, a very powerfull

university study, felt strongly that asthma a common ailment of

the autoimmune community was directly linked to antinbiotic usage.

more later

tony

> > > > This is a paper I hadnt seen. Leave it to the vets of

Cornell

> to

> > > point

> > > > out reality to the MDs... good thing weve got a crack team

of

> > > BSers to

> > > > deftly brush it under the rug.

> > > >

> > > > The doxy-group dogs took 20 mg/kg/d, which is like me

sucking

> > down

> > > > 1200 mg of doxy per day (however, dogs may excrete it faster

or

> > > > something... I dont know... but the investigators did

measure

> the

> > > > plasma drug levels, by bioassay, to make sure they were

> > > sufficient).

> > > >

> > > > One of six doxy-treated dogs, kept in isolation, developed

> > > symptomatic

> > > > arthritis despite the 30-day treatment! And remained

culture+

> > and

> > > PCR+.

> > > >

> > > > This pisses me right off!

> > > >

> > > > ==============================

> > > >

> > > > J Clin Microbiol. 1997 Jan;35(1):111-6.

> > > >

> > > > Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in experimentally

> > infected

> > > > dogs after antibiotic treatment.

> > > >

> > > > Straubinger RK, Summers BA, Chang YF, Appel MJ.

> > > >

> > > > A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, College of

> > > Veterinary

> > > > Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA.

> > > > rks4@c...

> > > >

> > > > In specific-pathogen-free dogs experimentally infected

with

> > > > Borrelia burgdorferi by tick exposure, treatment with high

> doses

> > of

> > > > amoxicillin or doxycycline for 30 days diminished but failed

to

> > > > eliminate persistent infection. Although joint disease was

> > > prevented

> > > > or cured in five of five amoxicillin- and five of six

> > > > doxycycline-treated dogs, skin punch biopsies and multiple

> > tissues

> > > > from necropsy samples remained PCR positive and B.

burgdorferi

> > was

> > > > isolated from one amoxicillin- and two doxycycline-treated

dogs

> > > > following antibiotic treatment. In contrast, B. burgdorferi

was

> > > > isolated from six of six untreated infected control dogs and

> > joint

> > > > lesions were found in four of these six dogs. Serum antibody

> > > levels to

> > > > B. burgdorferi in all dogs declined after antibiotic

treatment.

> > > > Negative antibody levels were reached in four of six

> doxycycline-

> >

> > > and

> > > > four of six amoxicillin-treated dogs. However, in dogs that

> were

> > > kept

> > > > in isolation for 6 months after antibiotic treatment was

> > > discontinued,

> > > > antibody levels began to rise again, presumably in response

to

> > > > proliferation of the surviving pool of spirochetes. Antibody

> > > levels in

> > > > untreated infected control dogs remained high.

> > > >

> > > > PMID: 8968890