When the BIG CURVE meets the dreaded Closed Kinetic Chain

[Guest guest]

Scherger wrote:

Now here is the real deal about the lumbar lordotic curve including the

sacrum and therefor pelvis, being necessary for good performance in athletic

endeavors and keeping the bugled damaged discs

syndromes, the stenosis and pinched nerve problems down.

When using the spine to leverage upright posture or leverage against a

force from the anterior in the upright posture, the shear created at the l5

Sacral joint is to the anterior which seats the inferior articular facets of

L5 against the superior facets of the sacrum. This means when using

posterior muscles to work to stand upright or the anterior muscles like the

obliques (muscle that cross all the lumbar joints )the shear created to the

anterior. This gives strong safe stable bone to bone contact for

stabilization at the joint.

Casler writes:

, this is a good example of a simplistic observation that can be

incorrect much of the time.

In your example, which might be a football lineman having force transmitted

through his arms. pushing him backward, you totally misunderstand that you

may " NOT " want an exaggerated Lordotic posture.

In fact, allowing such or trying to assume such may create a potentially

injurious situation.

You must understand that as the force to the player is transmitted to the

spine, it " forces " the spine into extension. The idea would be not to

embrace this positioning and facet to facet stress, but to create tensions

in the anterior chain that would balance the posterior compression and

maintain a more equal loading of the discs.

It would appear you have found that s " specific " posture is effective for

one application and are attempting to apply it to " all " applications and

that does not work.

The idea is to observe for the most effective load to all the structures

involved. Attempting to compress the posterior disc body to the point of

extreme facet to facet loading when faced with an external force that does

the same thing is asking for trouble.

Many might remember " Roman Chair Sit ups " . Imagine doing a weighted Roman

Chair Sit Up with a weight on your chest and instead of activating the

anterior chain to act against the force loads, you try to arch the back

(accentuate the lordotic curve).

It would seem that you have no idea, what forces sum to make the Torso

Stabilization Mechanism function. Looking at the spine is only the

beginning. You need to know what is activating in the anterior chain, and

interesting force loads like the Rectus Femorus, and Psoas. I get the

feeling you don't even consider how the load is transferred from the arms to

the feet.

Do you know how the ribcage and abs work to create the anterior forces and

stabilizers?

The spine and discs do not work in a vacuum.

Scherger wrote:

When the curve flattens out and the sacral base forms more flat base shear

in the above to movements will reverse and not be to the posterior. This

will cause the 5th lumbar to shear to the posterior. this will cause the

bulged damaged disc syndromes, the stenosis and pinched nerve (closing off

of foraminal opening where nerve like sciatic exits. This person not having

bone to bone contact will use posterior cocontaction from the multifidus to

stabilize the posterior shearing (translation) movement. Problem with this

it is ineffective and creates additional ultimate compression into the disc

causing it to degenerate.

Casler writes:

While I'm not sure exactly what your saying here, I would challenge that you

can produce evidence of specific degeneration causes.

Scherger wrote:

Now everyone here can FEEL how this works. standing upright put one leg

forward and lean the trunk forward using the obliques to pull the upper

trunk forward to push into a wall or against another human as in football.

In one instance when you get ready to contract the obliques you will first

start in a position with the trunk flexed forward, creating a loss of lumbar

curve or flat lumbar spine when observed from the lateral view. In the

other instance you will extend the trunk creating a lordotic curve when

observed from the lateral view.

You will find that in the first stance you have little strength to push the

wall or your opponent backwards. Beginning the movement with the lordotic

curve you will feel more power to push and your opponent will feel you have

more power. This power will extend from your feet upward to through your

arms.

Casler writes:

I see your confusion. The wall can't " push back " as an opposing lineman can

and the opposing force doesn't move.

Scherger wrote:

I will use the " dreaded " closed chain concept but the when pushing with your

arms it is believed what people call a closed chain system from your arms

through your shoulder joints, through your lumar joints, hip and leg joints

all the way to the floor.

Casler writes:

Dreaded by whom? You are correct, that from feet too hands, pushing against

a wall is a " closed kinetic chain " .

Scherger wrote:

In this closed chain the variable is the position from which the lumbar

joints are functioning from. You can have a person trying to perform this

movement with good lordotic to poor loss of lordotic posture.

It does not matter the muscle strength in the obliques as compared to the

position of the lumbar joints that the obliques are working on. The good

posture will produce a strong leverage while the poor posture will produce a

weak levearge requiring co contractions that do not work for you but for

your opponent and posterior translation of the vertebra causing pathological

conditions.

Casler writes:

This is incorrect. The force load is handled by the anterior chain

resisting forced extension of the spine.

Scherger wrote:

Find a person with big lordotic curve and run into them head on and you will

feel the power or strength in their body as you bounce off them. Now find

person with out lordotic curve or same person and flatten out their lower

back and run head on into them and feel how they have lost their strength to

leverage against you from the floor up throught their chest.

Casler writes:

" Big Lordotic Curve " ??? , you need to broaden your scope. The ideal

" posture or position " is the one that offers a " summation " of load

management capabilities to the " specific " and " transitional " loads of

sporting actions. Walking around with your butt and stomach sticking out to

create a " Big LordoticCurve " is not the total answer.

Scherger wrote:

This type of information, of understanding dynamic spinal function from the

upright posture I understand is what a lot of your study of is in England

right now when it comes to spinal function and strengthening for sports. A

friend of mine and who worked with us Ron O'Neil Athletic Trainer for New

England now traveling around world and mostly US consulting and training

Athletic Training departments for college and pro sports told me that when

he consulted with the Manchester and Arsenal soccer clubs in England that

they were really trying to understand the dynamic spine function from the

upright position a lot more then the research in the States. That you were

10 years ahead of US crowd as far as looking at spine as upright

musculo-skeletal package. So what I am telling you here should be as far as

I know more the way people are

thinking where you are versus those in the states still.

Casler writes:

I have no idea what English study you are referring to. Do you have

information on it?

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA