Re: the trace elements / cardiomyopathy article ref'd by Cheney

[Guest guest]

> Toxic thresshold levels of TE

for the myocardium in specific

> are not available from other findings,

> tho " the extrem. high vals of Hg and Sb [...] make it unlikely there

> would be no adverse effect. " Indeed.

[Guest guest]

it makes me wonder if their is some symetry between these new cardiac

studies in PWCs and the work of Dr Lerner.

he wrote one article that might be interesting for this thread:

http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Microbial.pdf

(you need adobe acrobat to get to this article)

also check out the other articles and citations at these two sites:

http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Lerner.html

http://www.cfsviraltreatment.com/

thanks

bill

>

>

> PMID: 10334427

>

> Abbrevs added by me:

>

> " Idiopathic dilated cardiomyopathy is, by def., a disease charect.

by

> dilation & impaired contraction of the left or of both ventricles.

Its

> etiology is still unknown and the pathogenetic mechanism debated,

tho

> a viral an/or immune, genetic/familial or toxic mechansm has been

> suggested [8 refs]. "

>

> " Trace elements are known to have a key role in myocardial

metabolism

> and both TE accumulation (cobalt, arsenic) and deficiency (selenium,

> ie Keshan disease) may be responsible for a dilated cardiomyopathy

> indistinguishable from an idiopathic form [2 refs]. It has been

> documented that even a sackie virus infection can cause a great

TE

> accumulation in the heart [2 refs]. "

>

>

> Neg controls were patients with other heart ailments, and semi-

normals

> with normal heart findings whod had biopsies due to chest pain, and

> semi-normals undergoing mitral valve replacement surgery who had

> normal left ventricular findings.

>

> They checked for ALOT of different elements, looks like about 30,

soem

> you just about never heard of.

>

> Electron microscopy (not controlled, it seems) showed some bad

stuff:

> " loss of contractile elements " - " myelin bodies " - messed up

> mitochondria ( " vacuolization " " with fragmentation of cristae " ).

>

> Skeletal muscle TE concentrations normal in all subjects

>

> discussion and refs of reproducibility problems with some techniques

> as seen in the lit. " Patent discrepencies " in different TE

> quantitation studies. Ref on the superiority of the technique used

here.

>

> Poor correlation between fibrosis degree and TE concentraion

suggests

> concentration site is mainly intracell. As does " extensive

myocardial

> cell degeneration. "

>

> TE concentratin severity correl with arrythmia severity

>

> Toxic thresshold levels of TE are not available from other findings,

> tho " the extrem. high vals of Hg and Sb [...] make it unlikely there

> would be no adverse effect. " Indeed.

>

> they put forth that Hg Sb and Ag could produce the damage via ROS.

refs.

>

> pateint/control ratios were

> 29 for silver

> 250 for arsenic

> 11 for gold

> 13 for Cr

> 22,300 for Hg (merc)

> 36 for La

> 12,840 for Sb

> 14.2 for zinc

>

> this is a walloping kick-ass finding, tho im still kinda skeptical

of

> the relation to CFIDS. Certainly CFIDS hearts need to be assayed for

> TE in light of the other key finding cited by Cheney, link posted by

> Dura Mater. Paper says the biopsy samples can be stored, so cmon,

its

> easy, lets get goin!

>

> The coxsackie-TE connection in mice is the sole example of such a

> phenomenon cited in the discussion. The 2 refs cited are both by NG

> Ilback et al, so you can throw that name in pubmed to check that

stuff

> out.

>

> All refs avail on request