Guest guest Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 Dear All, I wish to shed some light on Henriette " s claim that carduus should not be used with Hep C pts. , and the reasons she gave, which dont add up when looked at (1)+, from the point of view that carduus has been used for a long time in hep C treatment, and,(2) on a review of Hep C virology and aetiology. (1) I checked my clinical notes as a student in NIMH " s Balham Clinic, London, in 1993. to check on herbal treatment of Hep C pts., and it confirmed that indeed carduus and cynara were standard herbs used, and further , that patients were doing very well on these herbs. I also checked my notes from the Archway Clinic, from 2000 and 2001, where Hep C pts. were treated regularily, and again , both herbs were used successfully. Since no " Red Lights " have flashed in the herbal world on this subject over the past 12 yrs, and more, I can only assume that Carduus is safe to use , and furthermore is positively indicated in HepC. Also, since Carduus would have been a standard herb used to treat HepC ,surely danger signals would have been picked up by now , as so many HepC pts use Carduus. (2) On a review of 2 above....The following is the known up-to-date understanding.... (a)HepC virus (HCV) is an RNA virus that does not integrate into the host genome ( HCV is a rapidly mutating virus with several " quasispecies " present in the same host. © therefore this interferes with the hosts ability to mount an effective humoral response (d) HCV --chronic hep C accounts for 40% chronic liver disease (e) initial infection frequently does not exibit any Sx, and can remain dormant for years (f) Significant liver damage is not thought to be caused by the HCV in the liver hepatocytes, but by the hosts immune system attacking surface antigens on the exterior cell membrane , expressed by the HCV, causing membrane rupture, cell death, and a consequent remodelling of the liver architecture, which can be repaired , if conditions are suitable, and it is wellm known that there is no better agent to do this than Carduus, as its unique silymarin structure helps repair cell membranes. I can further attest to this, as in my MSc study on cancer, I had to study cancer aetiology in some depth, and it mirrors in many ways what is happening in the aetiology of HepC , where the host genome is used by the cancer to facilitate its spread. It does this by switching off information transmission systems from the cell surface to the nucleus, necessary to maintain host health and homeostasis. From cancer studies it is known that Carduus in some way , not understood , interferes with the disruption of these vital homeostatic mechanisms, to restore/mitigate the above process. Carduus , therefore , maintains cell membrane structure competence, a vital part of the cells ability to protect itself, and a justifaction of the use of Carduus in any situation where liver cell damage is caused. (G) HCV is known to be cytotoxic, but mildly so in general. (h) The mainstay of allopathic treatment is Interferon monotherapy and/or combination therapy with Interferon and Ribaviron. Both of these agents are anti-viral agents. Two very important fact has emerged from the studies on interferon use, ie, (1) that patients whose disease is least likely to progress, are, the ones most likely to respond to interferon, and visa versa, and 2) , it is known that it is important to pick up carriers early to slow the progression to the chronic state. (h) Since the presence of the HCV is the main determining factor in disease progression, aggressive early anti-viral therapy , with concurrent liver support is a very justified treatment strategy. Herbally this can be done with Carduus, medicinal mushrooms, liver support herbs , and from the Ayurvedic constitutional position, to treat appropriately. (G) (1) above again justifies the treatment strategy above outlined. (i) Studies have shown that the viral replication rate of HepC is very high@ 10 to the power of 12 virions per day. Coupled with the fact that mutation rates are very high for HCV, gives further justification for the herbal strategy above, as pathogens have no resistence to natural herbal antiseptics, they kill , but at lower rates visa vi allopathic drugs. Another factor to consider is that the concurrent use of herbs with Interferon may lessen the possibility of mutated virions overcoming the interferon, as it is known that there are considerable extrahepatic sources of the HCV in the spleen, pancreas and in lymphocytes, which are known/suspected to form a resevoir for reinfection post Interferon and post transplant. (j) Allopathic studies have shown that a vital part of HepC treatment is to prevent the development of chronicity, a fact which supports the above strategy. A COINCIDENTAL IRONY.....??? My next new patient after the Henriette posting on this issue was a HepC patient. I treated him as outlined above, and will continue to do so unless convinced otherwise. I will keep you posted on developments. Emmett Walsh Re: carduus decoction > > > > Markie Walsh wrote: > > > >> Basically I would be interested to know what conditions are > >> contra-indicated for carduus use? > > > > Silybum is not good for Hep folks who are in an active stage: the > virus/ > > whatnot eats away at one end while the silybum tries to work on the > other. > > > > It's also not a _tonic_. Not something to take every day on the > off-chance > > that it might help, liver problem or no liver problem. It's not a > herb for > > a > > liver that can handle everything thrown at it - it's not for the > healthy > > liver. > > > > It is very good for a challenged liver; a diseased one, one > overloaded > > with > > solvents, or one that's otherwise under stress. > > > > It can also protect against toxins (amanita etc.), but for that to > work > > fast > > enough it should be given in solution as IV. They do that in > Germany, but > > as > > far as I'm aware not elsewhere. > > > > Henriette > > > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed > > Henriette's herbal blog: http://henriettesherbal.com/blog > > > > > > > > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 in reply to the hepC and carduus debate, i treated a patient with hepB with carduus i was fortunate to be able to have bloods monitored every six weeks, i found that 60mls 1;1 per week was impressively effective and was reflected in the blood results. linda Re: carduus decoction > > > > > > > Markie Walsh wrote: > > > > > >> Basically I would be interested to know what conditions are > > >> contra-indicated for carduus use? > > > > > > Silybum is not good for Hep folks who are in an active stage: the > > virus/ > > > whatnot eats away at one end while the silybum tries to work on the > > other. > > > > > > It's also not a _tonic_. Not something to take every day on the > > off-chance > > > that it might help, liver problem or no liver problem. It's not a > > herb for > > > a > > > liver that can handle everything thrown at it - it's not for the > > healthy > > > liver. > > > > > > It is very good for a challenged liver; a diseased one, one > > overloaded > > > with > > > solvents, or one that's otherwise under stress. > > > > > > It can also protect against toxins (amanita etc.), but for that to > > work > > > fast > > > enough it should be given in solution as IV. They do that in > > Germany, but > > > as > > > far as I'm aware not elsewhere. > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed > > > Henriette's herbal blog: http://henriettesherbal.com/blog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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