Re: More Questions on Herx and drug toxicity

[Guest guest]

WHy rocephin? People relapse when they go off it. MIC's are not good.

Claforan, levaquin or IV doxy are more effective, if you're going to

go the IV route from what I hear.

> 1)Logically, doesn't the liver have to play a key role in removing

> endotoxin from the body during " herx " ?

>

> 2)If liver function is impaired, might " herx " symptoms be more

drawn

> out?

>

> 3)Does the job of filtering out endotoxin after die-off strain the

> liver, and make liver toxicity in response to a drug more likely?

>

> I ask because I tried to take Fluconazole while on a sustained

> course of 2x weekly Bicillin injections. I had an adverse response

> which has lasted for quite a long time: abdominal pain, impaired

> appetite, dehydration despite regular water intake, migraine.

>

> It seems to me that my " herx " response to Bicllin injections has

> also been more severe and protracted. I am referring to an

immediate

> spike in joint and spine inflammation.

>

> Will this come into play when I start IV Rocephin, and am

prescribed

> Flagyl to take with it?

>

> One more question:

>

> 4) How important do you think it is, to take the Flagyl DURING

> rather than AFTER IV Rocephin?

>

> As always, I am grateful for your insights.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jill, I suggest addressing your question to Drs. Burrascano,

Stricker and Fallon, all three of whom still recommend Rocephin over

all other IV abx for late-stage, neurological Lyme disease.

There are a LOT of patients on Lymenet whose experience is

consistent with this view, whose recovery only 'took' when they got

to Rocephin and who retained more of their gains than they lost.

There is a Lyme patient here in Santa Cruz who got well on it and is

still well today.

Yes, there are also patients who relapse. All this demonstrates is

that Lyme is persistent and patient response to treatment is

variable.

I've debated these claims about Rocephin on Lymenet, with someone

who shares your opinions. Every time, he cites the same studies.

Every time, I point out that those studies do NOT support his

assertions.

As far as cysts go:

ALL antibiotics that are lethal to Lyme encourage the bugs to revert

to cyst form. What distinguishes Rocephin is the higher kill ratio -

so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say " MIC's are

not good. " The only comparative studies I've seen all show that no

antibiotic leaves few living spirochetes than Rocephin. Where's your

evidence to the contrary?

Please cite data, if you have it, to support your claims. You'll

find Burrascano's guidelines in slide format, updated for 2004, in

the files section here.

Thanks,

> > 1)Logically, doesn't the liver have to play a key role in

removing

> > endotoxin from the body during " herx " ?

> >

> > 2)If liver function is impaired, might " herx " symptoms be more

> drawn

> > out?

> >

> > 3)Does the job of filtering out endotoxin after die-off strain

the

> > liver, and make liver toxicity in response to a drug more likely?

> >

> > I ask because I tried to take Fluconazole while on a sustained

> > course of 2x weekly Bicillin injections. I had an adverse

response

> > which has lasted for quite a long time: abdominal pain, impaired

> > appetite, dehydration despite regular water intake, migraine.

> >

> > It seems to me that my " herx " response to Bicllin injections has

> > also been more severe and protracted. I am referring to an

> immediate

> > spike in joint and spine inflammation.

> >

> > Will this come into play when I start IV Rocephin, and am

> prescribed

> > Flagyl to take with it?

> >

> > One more question:

> >

> > 4) How important do you think it is, to take the Flagyl DURING

> > rather than AFTER IV Rocephin?

> >

> > As always, I am grateful for your insights.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm leery of Rocephin also (as is my gallbladder!), however, agent Scha

is battling neuroLyme and I know that Dr. Fallon at Columbia is coming

up with some good data using Rocephin. I don't know what he combines

with it and when. Presumable something to kill off the CWD forms

generated.

- Kate D.

On Thursday, April 28, 2005, at 12:41 PM, jill1313 wrote:

> WHy rocephin? People relapse when they go off it. MIC's are not good.

> Claforan, levaquin or IV doxy are more effective, if you're going to

> go the IV route from what I hear.

[Guest guest]

Okay. These are not questions for myself so I am not going to spend

time contacting doctors who use this, obviously. I'm sorry for

intruding on your care again, I was just asking a question. It's

obvious you are directing your own care the way you feel best and

since I have such a different viewpoint I should just shut up

permanently inregards your case, which I now promise to do.

> > > 1)Logically, doesn't the liver have to play a key role in

> removing

> > > endotoxin from the body during " herx " ?

> > >

> > > 2)If liver function is impaired, might " herx " symptoms be more

> > drawn

> > > out?

> > >

> > > 3)Does the job of filtering out endotoxin after die-off strain

> the

> > > liver, and make liver toxicity in response to a drug more

likely?

> > >

> > > I ask because I tried to take Fluconazole while on a sustained

> > > course of 2x weekly Bicillin injections. I had an adverse

> response

> > > which has lasted for quite a long time: abdominal pain,

impaired

> > > appetite, dehydration despite regular water intake, migraine.

> > >

> > > It seems to me that my " herx " response to Bicllin injections

has

> > > also been more severe and protracted. I am referring to an

> > immediate

> > > spike in joint and spine inflammation.

> > >

> > > Will this come into play when I start IV Rocephin, and am

> > prescribed

> > > Flagyl to take with it?

> > >

> > > One more question:

> > >

> > > 4) How important do you think it is, to take the Flagyl DURING

> > > rather than AFTER IV Rocephin?

> > >

> > > As always, I am grateful for your insights.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Perhaps upping the antioxidants, b12, and SAM-e or glutathione

would help protect the liver from some of the toxicity? I don't

know, but it's my humble opinion that a lot of what is theorized to

be a herx, is in fact the result of stressing the liver, which is

already taxed, as said.

And speaking of toxicity, I personally would be extremely cautious

when it comes to taking a quinolone abx like cipro or levaquin --

the horror stories abound all over the net -- but just reading from

the levaquin site makes me shudder to think that anyone can

even sell the stuff and sleep at night:

" Ruptures of the shoulder, hand, or Achilles tendons have been

reported in patients receiving quinolones, including LEVAQUIN. If

you develop pain, swelling, or rupture of a tendon you should

stop taking LEVAQUIN and contact your healthcare professional.

Convulsions have been reported in patients receiving quinolone

antibiotics including LEVAQUIN. If you have experienced

convulsions in the past, be sure to let your physician know that

you have a history of convulsions.

Quinolones, including LEVAQUIN, may also cause central

nervous system stimulation which may lead to tremors,

restlessness, anxiety, lightheadedness, confusion,

hallucinations, paranoia, depression, nightmares, insomnia,

and rarely, suicidal thoughts or acts. "

Samento is apparently a " natural " quinolone, and can cause the

same disturbing, and sometimes permanent, reactions.

Don't know about you, (and I don't have lyme) but my tendons are

already in sad shape, very weak and unstable.

Just my two cents...

d.

In infections , Kate

<KateDunlay@h...> wrote:

> I'm leery of Rocephin also (as is my gallbladder!), however,

agent Scha

> is battling neuroLyme and I know that Dr. Fallon at Columbia is

coming

> up with some good data using Rocephin. I don't know what he

combines

> with it and when. Presumable something to kill off the CWD

forms

> generated.

>

> - Kate D.

>

> On Thursday, April 28, 2005, at 12:41 PM, jill1313 wrote:

>

> > WHy rocephin? People relapse when they go off it. MIC's are

not good.

> > Claforan, levaquin or IV doxy are more effective, if you're

going to

> > go the IV route from what I hear.

[Guest guest]

> 1)Logically, doesn't the liver have to play a key role in removing

> endotoxin from the body during " herx " ?

>

> 2)If liver function is impaired, might " herx " symptoms be more

drawn

> out?

>

> 3)Does the job of filtering out endotoxin after die-off strain the

> liver, and make liver toxicity in response to a drug more likely?

>

Hi ,

I wish I could remember where I found this information (probably one

of the AP/RA sites as that was my focus), as it applies to the

questions you've raised.

In a Herx:

-increased WBC

-increased ESR

-increased gamma globulin

-increased total globulin

-decreased se albumin

-decreased hematocrit

In a Flare:

-decreased WBC's

-increased ESR

Allergy:

-increased eosinophils

This also from my notes:

" Dying gram -ve bacteria produce LPS (lipopolysaccharide) which

triggers cytokine production, causing symptoms. LPS is fat-soluble,

glutathione detoxes LPS making it water-soluble so that it can be

excreted by the kidneys.

If LPS is not eliminated, it is then recycled which then continues

the cytokine cascade. "

I believe that an over-worked, tired liver is the reason that I am so

symptomatic when taking any antibiotic/antifungal, especially in

light of years of methotrexate, NSAIDs, pain meds etc. Liver profiles

are out of range only when there is serious damage (or so my ND tells

me), so it seems that a sluggish filter may be the problem for many

of us that have been chronically ill. I've often felt poisoned along

with possible symptoms of inflamation, so am thinking that I'm

experiencing a Herx plus toxins that just won't go away.

Glutathione looks like a good idea.

Robyn

ps: Your writing has inspired me and caused many smiles, thank you.

[Guest guest]

Hiya Robyn,

What you say here is so consistent with what I've heard from other

patients. Let us know if you recall that site, but I'll have a look

too - I'd love to read more about those lab parameters for herx vs.

flare, what patients they were observed in, etc. It'll be

interesting to think about the individual measures you cited and

what they might mean.

Thanks for the kind words about my posts, I'm glad you've enjoyed

reading here and I hope to get to read more from you as well!

Are you or were you diagnosed with RA? It sounds like it from some

of what you say. I'm very interested in learning more about how RA

patients fare here in the US. I have the dearest friend, living in

the UK, with RA, and what she has been through is really rough. I

always wonder if she might be better off over here - bizarre as that

sounds, coming from me.

Glutathione does indeed sound like it could be real help with this.

I'm so grateful to Rich, Sue B., and others who have called

my attention to it. Now if I can just get it prescribed!

Best wishes to you, Robyn!

> > 1)Logically, doesn't the liver have to play a key role in

removing

> > endotoxin from the body during " herx " ?

> >

> > 2)If liver function is impaired, might " herx " symptoms be more

> drawn

> > out?

> >

> > 3)Does the job of filtering out endotoxin after die-off strain

the

> > liver, and make liver toxicity in response to a drug more likely?

> >

> Hi ,

>

> I wish I could remember where I found this information (probably

one

> of the AP/RA sites as that was my focus), as it applies to the

> questions you've raised.

>

> In a Herx:

> -increased WBC

> -increased ESR

> -increased gamma globulin

> -increased total globulin

> -decreased se albumin

> -decreased hematocrit

>

> In a Flare:

> -decreased WBC's

> -increased ESR

>

> Allergy:

> -increased eosinophils

>

> This also from my notes:

>

> " Dying gram -ve bacteria produce LPS (lipopolysaccharide) which

> triggers cytokine production, causing symptoms. LPS is fat-

soluble,

> glutathione detoxes LPS making it water-soluble so that it can be

> excreted by the kidneys.

>

> If LPS is not eliminated, it is then recycled which then continues

> the cytokine cascade. "

>

> I believe that an over-worked, tired liver is the reason that I am

so

> symptomatic when taking any antibiotic/antifungal, especially in

> light of years of methotrexate, NSAIDs, pain meds etc. Liver

profiles

> are out of range only when there is serious damage (or so my ND

tells

> me), so it seems that a sluggish filter may be the problem for

many

> of us that have been chronically ill. I've often felt poisoned

along

> with possible symptoms of inflamation, so am thinking that I'm

> experiencing a Herx plus toxins that just won't go away.

>

> Glutathione looks like a good idea.

>

> Robyn

> ps: Your writing has inspired me and caused many smiles, thank you.