Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Omigod! That doctor is saying some amazing things, and he sounds like Tony's twin! Just a few of the radical similarities: He's saying that bacteriostatic drugs are not good (Tony says you can't do bacteriostatic alone - which is certainly in opposition to a certain protcol that can't be named --due to a kind of superimposed 'Martial Law'-- which insists bacteriostatic are the only drugs to be used). He's also saying that narrow spectrum abx like penicillin are better than the broad spectrum like the cyclines. Tony's always saying to try penicillin first. Always to try the first generation drugs, for one thing because if they work, you're not ruining your susceptibility to future drugs. At least it makes sense to start there! Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. Has anyone spoken with Schardt? The biggest problem I'm having with diflucan, which I'm back on daily (mainly because of the zithromax), is that it actually hurts my gut. Happened last time I tried to take it for a few weeks, and it's happening again. It actually burns after I take it, and then my gut rumbles and gurgles throughout the day. This is the diflucan, not the zithro, I'm certain of that. Any feedback on this happening in other patients? penny > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected here...Lamisil works > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of action than > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my experiences .. > what about it? ... > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm?ID=6431 > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 09/05/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 I realize that, . The point is, we don't always know why things work. I mean, the jury's still out on aspirin! It's even been reported to be anti-microbial in itself. So who knows why things work? Or if there's ONE particular reason alone that something's working? They are both anti-fungals, whether different classes or not, and as it turns out, they both seem to have anti-microbial properties as well. Hmmm. I'm just glad that Dr Schardt hasn't had any liver problems in his patients. That's encouraging to me. Also that he's willing to go down the road less travelled, and stand by it, no matter how weird it might sound. Also, it's just interesting and entertaining to me, that no matter how crazy Tony sounds sometimes, it's turned out in every case so far that what he's said works out to be true. It may be in reality some other mechanism than what he's theorizing, but the fact is, when Tony says something works or doesn't work, I listen, because I've seen time after time where he's been way, WAY ahead of the curve. Plus, he's well. penny > Penny you write > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & bacterial are > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different class of drug > working against fungi in a completely different way to Fluconazole & Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 You have to remember that Tony cultured his organisms all the way through his treatment, and he saw in the petri dish that Nystatin had a bigger killing zone around staph than most abx. Unfortunately, the bugs could eventually become resistant to the nystatin just like they did to the abx. How many doctors do you know (since the 50s) who culture their patients' organisms? I don't know why drug companies didn't connect the antimicrobial benefits of nystatin, but perhaps it has something to do with the way research projects are funded and managed? How many other drugs are suddenly " discovered " to have some previously unrecognized benefit? Happens all the time, sometimes many years later. penny " Jaep " <Jaep@L...> wrote: > If Nysatin was as effective against bacteria as Tony says the the drug > companies have missed an opportunity of a lifetime....come & buy our wonder > drug ....extremely effective against fungi & bacterial ...Tony may be right > ,the drug companies may f overlooked the antibacterial qualities of the drug > ...But somehow I don't think so ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Patrice, you're a very smart person and i'm sure you've looked at fluconazole thoroughly. Can you tell us what you think explains the extreme adverse response in some patients? Schardt's mechanism cannot explain herxheimer, if you read his interview you'll see he explicitly says it does not kill Lyme spirochetes, just 'slows them down' If it's not herx, an intolerable negative response to Fluconazole might be yeast die off, but I don't understand how that gets us to migraines like I had on Fluconazole - whereas impaired liver function means toxins recycle and could explain all sorts of distress. So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing I have asked of Penny with respect to Benicar: to think about why others who don't benefit or have an adverse reaction aren't responding like you are. > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected here...Lamisil > works > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > action than > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > experiences .. > > what about it? ... > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? ID=6431 > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > 09/05/2005 > > > > > > _____ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Penny, The fluconazole and low-dose tetracyclines are working well with the cases I'm familiar with (n=40+). The reason we use the tetracycline are numerous, e.g., they inhibit protein synthesis which reduces the amount of BLP (bacterial lipoprotein) which is what triggers inflammation and disease. Even though these abx are bacteriostatic in vitro, they are bacteriocidal in vivo, that is, they weaken the bacteria so the immune system can kill them...similar to fluconazole, which seems to actually do a much better job than the tetracyclines at killing borrelia. The other reason we use the tetracyclines is because of it's broad spectrum....ie, mycoplasmas may be a frequent co-infection. Penicillin won't touch mycoplasmas since they have no bacterial cell- wall. I'm not saying penicillins shouldn't be used...I think that they can. I know of one case that now herxes on amoxicillin with fluconazole and prior to the fluconazole, she didn't. So, the fluconaozole may potentiate the effect of penicillins on borrelia making them more susceptible to it. We are also investigating the use of higher dose fluconazole (400 mg/day). This may be useful in refractory cases. We are also considering using the latest fluoroquinolones, which is effective against borrelia in vitro (low MIC). As Schardt said...we have a long way to go yet to get this regimen fine tuned, but it does appear to be a significant breakthrough for treating chronic borreliosis. Regarding GI issues...I've heard of and have experienced some mild GI disturbances due to fluconazole. I think it can be hard on the natural flora and it can probably kick off some herx-like reactions in the gut. Probiotics and high doses of high soluble fiber (glucomannan) helps to ease the GI distress. Also, things that protection of the gut such as NAG (N-acetyl-glucosamine) and hyaluronic acid are helpful. Comprehensive anti-inflammatory regimen also help with any IBS-like symptoms. > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected here...Lamisil > works > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > action than > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > experiences .. > > what about it? ... > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? ID=6431 > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > 09/05/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Nystatin doesn't get past the gut wall very well, so it's use is limited. Fluconazole penetrates tissues extremely well...even deep into the CNS and joints. > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected here...Lamisil > works > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > action than > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > experiences .. > > what about it? ... > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? ID=6431 > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > 09/05/2005 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 ..... " Gastrointestinal absorption of nystatin is insignificant. Most orally administered nystatin is passed unchanged in the stool. " http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/nystator_cp.htm ie, not the drug of choice for chronic borreliosis if it can't get to the pathogen. > > Penny you write > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & > bacterial are > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different class > of drug > > working against fungi in a completely different way to Fluconazole > & > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to oranges. We know that borrelia change their genetic expression significantly once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility likely changes too. That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are seeing the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > If Nysatin was as effective against bacteria as Tony says the the > drug > > companies have missed an opportunity of a lifetime....come & buy > our wonder > > drug ....extremely effective against fungi & bacterial ...Tony may > be right > > ,the drug companies may f overlooked the antibacterial qualities > of the drug > > ...But somehow I don't think so ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 , We do seem to be seeing quite a few herx-like reactions to fluconazole. One consistent symptoms is arthalgia which I am suspcious is a herx reaction to fluconazole's ability to penetrate and kill borrelia in the joints. We are seeing significant improvement with CNS signs over several weeks to a few months, but also an increase in arthritis. It's likely that those cryptic pathogens in the joint are the toughest to get to. Time will tell if these symptoms consistently improve. I can say that mine has improved significantly and I've been on fluconazole for around 5 months now. fyi, my chem profile is normal as of last month. We haven't seen elevated liver enzymes in any of the cases I'm familiar with. > > > > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected > here...Lamisil > > works > > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > > action than > > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > > experiences .. > > > what about it? ... > > > > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? > ID=6431 > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > > 09/05/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I know that in vitro and in vivo are like apples and oranges. But I.D. doctors and emergency room docs still use in vitro testing (petri dish) to test for antibiotic sensitivity to determine treatment. And pharmaceutical companies still use in vitro testing in their research when developing new drugs. It's far a more reliable guide than guesswork. And it's quite possible, although people don't seem to want to explore this possibility, that a lot of people are really sick with the same illness Tony had. Meaning bugs in addition to the hard to detect spirochetes. penny > In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to oranges. > > We know that borrelia change their genetic expression significantly > once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility likely > changes too. > > That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are seeing > the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I guess the question is, can you prove that all of our symptoms are due to BB? Is it possible that some of our symtpoms are due to bugs that ARE circulating through the gut? I KNOW they're circulating through the blood stream. I'm pretty sure this is why i.v. abx make me (and others) feel better so quickly (and causes the rapid die-off of bugs resulting in " herxing " ). " Herxing " isn't coming from deeply embedded critters, it's coming from the easy to kill ones. I.V abx clears the blood pretty quickly. But it can't get to the more entrenched bugs nearly so easily, so after 6 months off the abx, the symptoms come back as the bugs come out of hiding. But at least this kind of treatment is lightening the load, giving your body's immune sytem more ammunition to throw at the more entrenched bugs. The trick is to not stop treatment once you're feeling better due to a lightened bacterial load. Nystatin, a very cheap and benign drug, compared to I.V. abx, could very well have a similar action by clearing the gut. I get worried when people are so convinced they know the culprits, that they can't look anywhere else. In the meantime real criminals are allowed to run rampant. :-) penny > > > Penny you write > > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) > will > > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed > endlessly > > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. > > > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & > > bacterial are > > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different > class > > of drug > > > working against fungi in a completely different way to > Fluconazole > > & > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > -- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Not trying to be disagreeable, but the tetracyclines are bacteriostatic in vivo. They stop protein synthesis, thereby stopping replication, thus giving the immune system time to kill the bacteria. A big problem can be generating immune reaction. Also, the protein synthesis inhibition by the tets is reversible, whereas with the macs it is not. So if the immune reaction does not come, the synthesis will resume. I think I read at higher doses that the tets are bacteriacidal, but couldn't say for certain. Clarithromycin definitely is cidal at higher doses, but who knows what is safe? I am sure I felt some cidal activity when I combined doxy with clarithromycin. Has anyone else experienced this? > > > > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected > here...Lamisil > > works > > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > > action than > > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > > experiences .. > > > what about it? ... > > > > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? > ID=6431 > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > > 09/05/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 I don't consider monitoring clinical response to therapy " guesswork " . I put more weight on the clinical response than I do MIC tests which are unreliable. Too much confidence is put in laboratory tests...they are only a tool and should be used appropriately....they are not definitive. The major problem with Lyme disease diagnosis is that main stream medicine puts too much confidence in the ELISA test, which in my opinion is a worthless test...more dangerous than good. > > In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to oranges. > > > > We know that borrelia change their genetic expression > significantly > > once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility > likely > > changes too. > > > > That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are seeing > > the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 The reason I use the term, A-CIDs, is because we don't always know what the pathogens are. I'm pretty sure I have borreliosis, I've had an EM rash. But, I may also have mycoplasma or other co-infections too. What I can say is that whatever the pathogen is that I have is susceptible to fluconazole. I can also say that we are now seeing this therapy work well in approximately 40 individuals that present clinically with A-CIDs. So, there does seem to be a lot of us infected with a pathogen susceptible to fluconazole...I'm suspicious that most of it is borreliosis. The new Bbls primer set recently published suggests the prevalence of Bb is significantly higher than thought. No matter what the pathogen is, it all comes down to getting well, and that's what we are seeing. > > > > Penny you write > > > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like > Nystatin) > > will > > > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed > > endlessly > > > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. > > > > > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & > > > bacterial are > > > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different > > class > > > of drug > > > > working against fungi in a completely different way to > > Fluconazole > > > & > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > --------- > > > -- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Your experience with IVs suggests that you are dealing with a multi- systemic pathogen, not a localized GI infection. Bugs in the gut won't cause multi-systemic chronic inflammatory disease such as borreliosis, mycoplasmosis, mycobacterium, ....etc. The multi-systemic pathogens can cause a lot of GI problems...I see and hear this a lot. Gastroenteritis, colitis...etc. So, why use nystatin which stays in the gut lumen, when you can use fluconazole that will get into every tissue of the body, including the gut wall? Nystatin can't even reach that. > > > > Penny you write > > > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like > Nystatin) > > will > > > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed > > endlessly > > > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. > > > > > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & > > > bacterial are > > > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different > > class > > > of drug > > > > working against fungi in a completely different way to > > Fluconazole > > > & > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > --------- > > > -- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 My point is that the protein synthesis inhibitors...tetracyclines and macrolides, do give the immune system an edge so they can kill more pathogens than without the abx. If we inhibit protein synthesis, then we can inhibit virulence factors, pathogen replication, and reduction in bacterial lipoproteins which actually trigger inflammation and disease. Macs are a viable option...I still use low-dose zithro occassionally. > > > > > > > > > > > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease > > > > I think there's more afoot than what's suspected > > here...Lamisil > > > works > > > > against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of > > > action than > > > > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my > > > experiences .. > > > > what about it? ... > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm? > > ID=6431 > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: > > > 09/05/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 I'm already using fluconazole. :-) Somehow we've gotten way off the point. Which was simply corroborative in that Tony has been saying for a long time that antifungals also kill bacteria, not just fungus. He has experienced it personally and observed it in the lab. He's always been a fan of Nystatin because it's cheap, it's safe, and he had great results with it. People don't have to believe it (they never do anyway) but I remind you, Tony's well. Also, that not all bugs are susceptible to Nystatin, or that they can develop resistance. Lets hope Fluconazole is less likely to lose its effectiveness. penny > > > > > Penny you write > > > > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like > > Nystatin) > > > will > > > > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed > > > endlessly > > > > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic > thing. > > > > > > > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & > > > > bacterial are > > > > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different > > > class > > > > of drug > > > > > working against fungi in a completely different way to > > > Fluconazole > > > > & > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > --------- > > > > -- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Yeah, but . How many of you are there who are REALLY doing this " clincial monitoring " in any kind of scientific way? The vast majority of people who ever receive ABX are getting them based on guesswork first. The diagnostic " tools " of lab work aren't even used. Then when the results of the treatment are less than clear cut, more guesswork ensues. Don't you think just a " little " lab work support would be beneficial? At least give us a little more information, another piece of the treatment puzzle? Bacterial response CAN be monitored in the petri dish. That's how emergency procedures are designed when someone comes into the hospital close to death, or someone contracts an infection while in the hospital. I know people who've gone into hospitals, caught a nasty infection while there, almost died, got i.v. abx based on LAB TESTS, and came out of the hospital with their FMS or CFS in remission! We need to get doctors (and insurance companies) to start realizing that we need testing prior to ANY abx treatment. Whether it's strep throat or a sinus infection. That doesn't happen anymore and it won't until we start pushing for it by making a big noise about it. Otherwise, we're just perpetuating the problem of increasing abx resistance, and patients getting blamed for taking " unnecessary " abx, when it's really a matter of doctors not prescribing the correct abx, because they GUESS! penny The situation is pathetic. In the 1950s every doctor knew how to test the organisms and did so right in his office. Now they don't have a clue, because it's a lot more efficient and profitable to have commercial labs do the work. Docs rely on labs who are completely disconnected and don't spend any time trying to figure out what's going on with a patient. I've always heard the best I.D. docs are the ones who drive the lab personnel crazy, looking over their shoulders all the time. Here we are, chronically sick and we can't even get simple lab tests for infections ordered. Our system is really messed up. > > > In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to oranges. > > > > > > We know that borrelia change their genetic expression > > significantly > > > once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility > > likely > > > changes too. > > > > > > That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are > seeing > > > the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 I didn't know you were already using fluconazole...I'm glad to hear that you are trying it. Tony (n=1) we can't put a lot of weight on one individual. I've heard of a lot of these n=1 testimonials about this therapy or that one and none that I know can compare to fluconazole. Between Schart and the physicians I know using fluconazole, there are well over 120 patients. The results are corroborating Schart's early finding that it appears very effective against chronic neuroborreliosis. These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it appears to work and in a high percentage of patients. > > > > > > Penny you write > > > > > > " Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like > > > Nystatin) > > > > will > > > > > > actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been > ridiculed > > > > endlessly > > > > > > for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic > > thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both > fungal & > > > > > bacterial are > > > > > > duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely > different > > > > class > > > > > of drug > > > > > > working against fungi in a completely different way to > > > > Fluconazole > > > > > & > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > --------- > > > > > -- > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Penny, Conventional microbiology doesn't work well with many of these fastidious pathogens that cause A-CIDs....ie, mycoplasma, borrelia...etc. I'm not against lab tests, but I also know their short comings and I know that negative results are weighed too heavily. ....when it comes to many of the pathogens we deal with... " Abscence of proof is not proof of abscence " We do need a definitive test and that's why I'm excited about the new PCR primer set (Bbls) I've been talking about...that test needs to quickly be moved into the clinical labs and then used. We desperately need a clinical study to monitor fluconazole therapy using this new PCR assay and see what happens over time. I'm not against lab tests at all,.... I just know we don't have the reliable test that we need...if we did, we would not be in this dilemma. > > > > In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to > oranges. > > > > > > > > We know that borrelia change their genetic expression > > > significantly > > > > once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility > > > likely > > > > changes too. > > > > > > > > That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are > > seeing > > > > the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 free2reckon@y...> wrote: Conventional microbiology doesn't work well with many of these fastidious pathogens that cause A-CIDs....ie, mycoplasma, borrelia...etc. , I don't really see how you can say that. Nobody's even trying to use " conventional " microbiology. I'm talking about identifitying ANY harmful organisms, not just spirochetes, or mycoplasma, and conventional biology DOES work in those cases. It also works in guiding treatment. Tony used conventional microbioloby all the way to 100% WELL. The reason I DO pay extra attention to one-of-a-kind people like Tony, and also to Barb, is because they ARE 100% symptom free. I've known lots of doctors and people, for lots of years, with lots of theories who claim to be " close " to well, but they're still here, touting the latest new therapy. Tony and Barb are inspirational, because the other people I know who've actually beat these symptoms, were either very young (unlike me) and fortunate in that removing some infected part of their body, like tonsils, sent them into remission, or they were older and required very radical treatments. One woman I know who is now well, spent years on abx treatment culminating in having her entire face peeled back, all of her sinuses and bones completely debrided, and then followed up with another 2 years of i.v. abx. She's 100% well now. But it was a lot harder than the approach that Tony and Barb have taken, people who are similar to me in age and symtpoms. So when Tony says that he got well by simply observing his organisms and how they reacted to various antimicrobials, both clinically and in the petri dish, I'm very interested. It's a lot easier than having my face removed. I'm excited for the new PCR testing too. I hope it's way more accurate than its precursors have been. And less expensive and covered by insurance. And I hope it's done in conjuction with standard microbiology, to see what else might be making a person sick. In the meantime, a little old fashioned biology could help a lot of people. Even children with strep throat should have simple lab work done, to prevent wrong abx choices, which create abx resistant bugs for the rest of society. These simple lab tests are a meager price compared to the alternative. penny In infections , " free2reckon " <free2reckon@y...> wrote: > Penny, > > Conventional microbiology doesn't work well with many of these > fastidious pathogens that cause A-CIDs....ie, mycoplasma, > borrelia...etc. > > I'm not against lab tests, but I also know their short comings and I > know that negative results are weighed too heavily. > > ...when it comes to many of the pathogens we deal with... > > " Abscence of proof is not proof of abscence " > > We do need a definitive test and that's why I'm excited about the > new PCR primer set (Bbls) I've been talking about...that test needs > to quickly be moved into the clinical labs and then used. > > We desperately need a clinical study to monitor fluconazole therapy > using this new PCR assay and see what happens over time. > > I'm not against lab tests at all,.... I just know we don't have the > reliable test that we need...if we did, we would not be in this > dilemma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > In vitro vs in vivo sensitivites is comparing apples to > > oranges. > > > > > > > > > > We know that borrelia change their genetic expression > > > > significantly > > > > > once they are in a mammalian host...their abx susceptibility > > > > likely > > > > > changes too. > > > > > > > > > > That's why the clinical response is so significant. We are > > > seeing > > > > > the best and most consistent response using fluconazole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 nelly wrote: " Have you got my husband and myself counted in your statistics? 74 days of fluconazole (200 mg/day) neither cured nor even improved my condition and neither did it do a thing for my husband's. We are both suffering from chronic Lyme... " I'm glad you asked this, Nelly. There are plenty of folks with well- documented neuro-lyme who don't respond. I should point out that this is not an attack on fluconazole. Someone just astonished me by declaring that I am " anti-ARB. " Listen to this accusation, Nelly: " It seems that you absolutely do not want any kind of positive Benicar experience reported without qualifying it with all kinds of negatives that you believe exist, but aren't even proven. " This is the kind of thing one hears, from people who like their enthusiasm undililuted by contact with other experiences than their own. One of the great things about online boards is that they help keep drug enthusiasts honest. One can't go saying 'everyone who does such and such gets well' because a small army of folks will eventually make it clear that they did 'such and such' and got no better or much worse. I don't discount the possibility that fluconazole is kicking some butt on neuro-Lyme in select patients, but because of yeast overgrowth and other issues there are MANY Lyme patients who've taken extended, high dose courses and cannot report any improvement in neuro symptoms at all. I care about patients, not pills. If the pills help some patients but not others, admitting that is a clear obligation to the patients that I care about. So I am glad for to keep us updated on patients who do well with this, but I am also relieved to have Nelly remind us that others have not. Those are the facts, make of them what we will. I'm certain that there will be more trials in the future seeking to confirm or deny Schardt's central claims, and that is good! Who knows what we may learn about various mechanisms, that may help even those who fluconazole does not. > , > > >These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it > >appears to work and in a high percentage of patients. > > Have you got my husband and myself counted in your statistics? 74 days of fluconazole (200 mg/day) neither cured nor even improved my condition and neither did it do a thing for my husband's. We are both suffering from chronic Lyme + whatever. > > You were just as confident about Benicar, whatever happened to your " well researched " enthusiasm about that? I thought you had gone from 90 to 95% cured after starting the Unmentionable Protocol. I don't understand your need to search for yet another mode of intervention. > > Nelly > > > [infections] Re: More from Dr. Schardt > > > I didn't know you were already using fluconazole...I'm glad to hear > that you are trying it. > > Tony (n=1) we can't put a lot of weight on one individual. I've > heard of a lot of these n=1 testimonials about this therapy or that > one and none that I know can compare to fluconazole. > > Between Schart and the physicians I know using fluconazole, there > are well over 120 patients. The results are corroborating Schart's > early finding that it appears very effective against chronic > neuroborreliosis. > > These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it > appears to work and in a high percentage of patients. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 No, you are not...I don't know you. 74 days is too short a period for chronic borreliosis...and if you have ...whateverosis, it may not be susceptible to fluconazole. I am still very enthusiastic about ARBs therapy as an important part of a comprehensive anti-inflammatory regimen. They work very well when used this way. What therapeutic regimen do recommend for chronic borreliosis? > , > > >These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it > >appears to work and in a high percentage of patients. > > Have you got my husband and myself counted in your statistics? 74 days of fluconazole (200 mg/day) neither cured nor even improved my condition and neither did it do a thing for my husband's. We are both suffering from chronic Lyme + whatever. > > You were just as confident about Benicar, whatever happened to your " well researched " enthusiasm about that? I thought you had gone from 90 to 95% cured after starting the Unmentionable Protocol. I don't understand your need to search for yet another mode of intervention. > > Nelly > > > [infections] Re: More from Dr. Schardt > > > I didn't know you were already using fluconazole...I'm glad to hear > that you are trying it. > > Tony (n=1) we can't put a lot of weight on one individual. I've > heard of a lot of these n=1 testimonials about this therapy or that > one and none that I know can compare to fluconazole. > > Between Schart and the physicians I know using fluconazole, there > are well over 120 patients. The results are corroborating Schart's > early finding that it appears very effective against chronic > neuroborreliosis. > > These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it > appears to work and in a high percentage of patients. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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