RE: Re: More from Dr. Schardt

[Guest guest]

Penny you write

"Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing.

Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & bacterial are duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different class of drug working against fungi in a completely different way to Fluconazole & Terbinafine its main effect is against fungi any effect on bacterial is incidental ...Dr Sharadt ...claims that the killing power of Fluconazole is by inhibiting enzyme p450....I'm experiencing a powerful effect against clear bacterial symptoms with Lamisil ...if Lamisil works against CWD bacteria then that's a significant development ...we'll only know if others experience the same effect as myself

Terbinafine: mode of action and properties of the squalene epoxidase inhibition.Ryder NS.Sandoz Research Institute, Vienna, Austria.Terbinafine (Lamisil) has primarily fungicidal action against many fungi as a result of its specific mechanism of squalene epoxidase inhibition. Treated fungi accumulate squalene while becoming deficient in ergosterol, an essential component of fungal cell membranes. The cidal action is closely associated with the development of high intracellular squalene concentrations, which are believed to interfere with fungal membrane function and cell wall synthesis. In the case of Candida albicans, growth inhibition with terbinafine appears to result from the ergosterol deficiency. The filamentous form of this fungus is more susceptible than the yeast form. Measurement of ergosterol biosynthesis by incorporation of radiolabelled precursors indicates a correlation between inhibition of growth and ergosterol biosynthesis in a range of pathogenic fungi. Terbinafine is a potent non-competitive inhibitor of squalene epoxidase from Candida (Ki = 30 nM). In contrast, inhibition of rat liver squalene epoxidase only occurs at higher drug concentrations (Ki = 77 microM), and is competitive with squalene. Thus, terbinafine has no effect on cholesterol biosynthesis in vivo. Squalene epoxidase is not an enzyme of the cytochrome P-450 type, thereby avoiding potential inhibition of this class of enzymes.Publication Types:

· Review

· Review, Tutorial

PMID: 1543672 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of penny Sent: 11 May 2005 18:55infections Subject: [infections] Re: More from Dr. SchardtOmigod! That doctor is saying some amazing things, and he sounds like Tony's twin! Just a few of the radical similarities:He's saying that bacteriostatic drugs are not good (Tony says you can't do bacteriostatic alone - which is certainly in opposition to a certain protcol that can't be named --due to a kind of superimposed 'Martial Law'-- which insists bacteriostatic are the only drugs to be used). He's also saying that narrow spectrum abx like penicillin are better than the broad spectrum like the cyclines. Tony's always saying to try penicillin first. Always to try the first generation drugs, for one thing because if they work, you're not ruining your susceptibility to future drugs. At least it makes sense to start there!Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing. Has anyone spoken with Schardt? The biggest problem I'm having with diflucan, which I'm back on daily (mainly because of the zithromax), is that it actually hurts my gut. Happened last time I tried to take it for a few weeks, and it's happening again. It actually burns after I take it, and then my gut rumbles and gurgles throughout the day. This is the diflucan, not the zithro, I'm certain of that. Any feedback on this happening in other patients?penny> > > A New Approach to Chronic Lyme Disease> I think there's more afoot than what's suspected here...Lamisil works> against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely different mode of action than> Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug to confirm my experiences ..> what about it? ...> > > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm?ID=6431> --> No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 09/05/2005

[Guest guest]

Penny, I was having gut problems before

starting the diflucan therapy (almost 3 months now). I have GERD.

The diflucan has not worsened this at all & I was really worried it

would. It hasn’t improved it either, but I have no difficulties

with it. I take it at lunch time w/food & lots of water. I seem

to be making some small strides. THE ID Dr. I’m going to has a

number of patients on Diflucan now with what appears to be some good

results. Obviously, the therapy hasn’t been tried for a long enough

period of time to claim any permanent results, etc. Patrice

From: infections [mailto:infections ] On Behalf Of penny

Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005

12:55 PM

infections

Subject:

[infections] Re: More from Dr. Schardt

Omigod! That doctor is saying some amazing things, and he sounds

like Tony's twin!

Just a few of the radical similarities:

He's saying that bacteriostatic drugs are not good

(Tony says you

can't do bacteriostatic alone - which is certainly

in opposition to

a certain protcol that can't be named --due to a

kind of

superimposed 'Martial Law'-- which insists

bacteriostatic are the

only drugs to be used).

He's also saying that narrow spectrum abx like

penicillin are better

than the broad spectrum like the cyclines. Tony's

always saying to

try penicillin first. Always to try the first

generation drugs, for

one thing because if they work, you're not ruining

your

susceptibility to future drugs. At least it makes

sense to start

there!

Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like

Nystatin) will

actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been

ridiculed endlessly

for it, and here's this doctor doing the same

basic thing.

Has anyone spoken with Schardt? The biggest

problem I'm having with

diflucan, which I'm back on daily (mainly because

of the zithromax),

is that it actually hurts my gut. Happened last

time I tried to take

it for a few weeks, and it's happening again. It

actually burns

after I take it, and then my gut rumbles and

gurgles throughout the

day. This is the diflucan, not the zithro, I'm

certain of that. Any

feedback on this happening in other patients?

penny

>

>

> A New Approach to

Chronic Lyme Disease

> I think there's more afoot

than what's suspected here...Lamisil

works

> against CWD bacteria ...it has a completely

different mode of

action than

> Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the drug

to confirm my

experiences ..

> what about it? ...

>

>

> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm?ID=6431

> --

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 -

Release Date:

09/05/2005

[Guest guest]

Yes, to me the most interesting thing Tony says is "i'm cured" he automatically gets my complete attention ...Asprin is an anti fungal & as are i'm sure you know Statins ,"the wonder drug" are too... But the thing is If Nysatin was as effective against bacteria as Tony says the the drug companies have missed an opportunity of a lifetime....come & buy our wonder drug ....extremely effective against fungi & bacterial ...Tony may be right ,the drug companies may f overlooked the antibacterial qualities of the drug ...But somehow I don't think so ...It's not all anti Tony as you see in the post below Tony's high dose ABX's protocol has a champion ...

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of penny Sent: 11 May 2005 21:23infections Subject: [infections] Re: More from Dr. SchardtI realize that, . The point is, we don't always know why things work. I mean, the jury's still out on aspirin! It's even been reported to be anti-microbial in itself. So who knows why things work? Or if there's ONE particular reason alone that something's working? They are both anti-fungals, whether different classes or not, and as it turns out, they both seem to have anti-microbial properties as well. Hmmm. I'm just glad that Dr Schardt hasn't had any liver problems in his patients. That's encouraging to me.Also that he's willing to go down the road less travelled, and stand by it, no matter how weird it might sound. Also, it's just interesting and entertaining to me, that no matter how crazy Tony sounds sometimes, it's turned out in every case so far that what he's said works out to be true. It may be in reality some other mechanism than what he's theorizing, but the fact is, when Tony says something works or doesn't work, I listen, because I've seen time after time where he's been way, WAY ahead of the curve. Plus, he's well.penny> Penny you write> "Tony's been saying forever that antifungals (like Nystatin) will> actually kill the bacteria as well. He's been ridiculed endlessly> for it, and here's this doctor doing the same basic thing.> > Not the same basic thing , many antibiotics both fungal & bacterial are> duel to some extent .....Nysatin is a completely different class of drug> working against fungi in a completely different way to Fluconazole &

[Guest guest]

Actually , I’m not that smart

& I’m not ready to call the Diflucan experiment a success quite

yet. It is my understanding that if you put Lyme and Diflucan in a test

tube, squat happens. But, I believe it is theorized (and I’m not

putting this very scientifically) that the Diflucan starves out the Lyme’s

nutrients, hence, dampening their ability to survive.

I’m not screaming from the roof tops

that this is a miraculous success, but speaking for myself personally, the

therapy has been very tolerable. My ID Dr. had no concerns about putting

me on this as he has a TON of HIV+ patients on it long term (essentially for

life) for Cryptococcus & says he’s never seen liver problems.

He didn’t even order a liver enzyme panel on me, but I did have my Family Practice Dr.

order one for me & they actually came back better than ever. All of

my labs came back fine, in fact.

In my particular case, I really don’t

think I had preexisting yeast issues. I guess I can’t say that

w/100% accuracy, but I’m pretty confident I didn’t.

I suppose one could have a herx, not b/c

the Diflucan is directly killing the Lyme, but if it creates an atmosphere

where they’re no longer able to survive, would there then not be a die

off? I don’t know….I’m asking this question too?

I did feel more profound fatigue for the 1st

three weeks I was on Diflucan, but that is gone now & I just have the

regular fatigue & loss of stamina issues. However, I think that is

even improving, but the jury is still out on that just yet.

I’m not sure how you’re

quantifying the extreme adverse reactions in some. How many are we

talking here??? Until more data rolls through on this therapy, I’m

not sure that we can say with any degree of accuracy what the likelihood is of

someone experiencing a severe adverse reaction. My ID Dr. isn’t having anyone with an

adverse reaction to it. And he does have a large population of Lyme

patients.

The other thing I think one has to

consider when evaluating why some respond to therapy & why some don’t,

is the accuracy of their underlying diagnosis. I don’t want to start a

controversial subject, but not everyone who thinks they have Lyme probably has

Lyme & there’s others out there that think they have a Rheumatic

condition that may indeed have Lyme. I’m here to tell you,

there’s an awful lot of people out there that are probably misdiagnosed. And

other variables need to be considered such as age, sex, other medical issues,

diet, genetics, prior therapies, degree of disability to start with, etc.

when evaluating response to a medication. Our best hope is that enough

people embark on this therapy so that enough data rolls out to make some

general assumptions. I know my ID

Dr. is actively seeking funding to do a formal

study, but we know how long it takes to get the ball rolling on that &

complete the study. Meanwhile, one can give it a shot & see if it

helps. And fortunately, since it just went generic, it’s not too

tough on the purse strings.

I’m not sure I answered your

questions. All I can say is that I’m pretty conservative in choosing

my treatments & this is one that I personally found to be simple, tolerable

& the benefits sure seem to outweigh the risks. If one’s had a

negative experience with the Diflucan, I can certainly understand one’s

skepticism or reluctance to give it another try.

Patrice

From: infections [mailto:infections ] On Behalf Of Schaafsma

Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:59

PM

infections

Subject:

[infections] Re: More from Dr. Schardt

Patrice, you're a very smart person and i'm sure you've looked at

fluconazole thoroughly. Can you tell us what you

think explains the

extreme adverse response in some patients?

Schardt's mechanism cannot explain herxheimer, if

you read his

interview you'll see he explicitly says it does

not kill Lyme

spirochetes, just 'slows them down'

If it's not herx, an intolerable negative response

to Fluconazole

might be yeast die off, but I don't understand how

that gets us to

migraines like I had on Fluconazole - whereas

impaired liver

function means toxins recycle and could

explain all sorts of

distress.

So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing I

have asked of Penny

with respect to Benicar: to think about why others

who don't benefit

or have an adverse reaction aren't responding like

you are.

> >

> >

> > A New Approach

to Chronic Lyme Disease

> > I think there's more

afoot than what's suspected

here...Lamisil

> works

> > against CWD bacteria ...it has a

completely different mode of

> action than

> > Fluconazole ...Will someone else try the

drug to confirm my

> experiences ..

> > what about it? ...

> >

> >

> > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/bulletinarticle.cfm?

ID=6431

> > --

> > No virus found in this outgoing message.

> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database:

266.11.7 - Release Date:

> 09/05/2005

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

>These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it >appears to work and in a high percentage of patients.

Have you got my husband and myself counted in your statistics? 74 days of fluconazole (200 mg/day) neither cured nor even improved my condition and neither did it do a thing for my husband's. We are both suffering from chronic Lyme + whatever.

You were just as confident about Benicar, whatever happened to your "well researched" enthusiasm about that? I thought you had gone from 90 to 95% cured after starting the Unmentionable Protocol. I don't understand your need to search for yet another mode of intervention.

Nelly

[infections] Re: More from Dr. Schardt

I didn't know you were already using fluconazole...I'm glad to hear that you are trying it.Tony (n=1) we can't put a lot of weight on one individual. I've heard of a lot of these n=1 testimonials about this therapy or that one and none that I know can compare to fluconazole.Between Schart and the physicians I know using fluconazole, there are well over 120 patients. The results are corroborating Schart's early finding that it appears very effective against chronic neuroborreliosis.These are the reasons we are optimistic about fluconazole...ie, it appears to work and in a high percentage of patients.