Re: MS - important spirochetal finding - and tying up loose ends

[Guest guest]

Hiya, good thoughts here.

What you say at the end about evidence of autoimmune activity

reminds me that I saw my immune panel results at LLMDs and my

globulins were all quite high, with elevated lymphocytes in the CBC

they did concurrently. Lymphs have spiked three times now.

Oh joy.

The spirochetal findings in MS are not getting anything like the

attention they deserve because they are related to Lyme, and

anything this spirochete touches gets assigned a low profile. It's

easy to forget that when you spend time in the patient sites online,

but in the real world, Lyme is still a non-entity for the most part.

I am sure grateful to you for your researches on MS, . Top notch

posts, a whole long string of them.

Thanks,

> I posted before mainly about Steiners 1930s-50s findings of

> spirochetes and possible spirochetal pleoforms in MS. I was

concerned

> with possible non-specificities of the silver stain he used. Then I

> read a work claiming to have found similar forms in a number of

other

> diseases (but not in health) using Steiners own process. I havent

> attempted to locate a response in Steiner extensive corpus (much

ofit

> in German). For now I dont want to deal with this silver stuff

anymore.

>

> I was very surprised to learn today that none other than the

Brorsons

> published on a spirochetal MS finding in 2001. They blindly

examined

> CSF of 9 patients and 5 controls before and after culture, and

found

> L-forms in in 9/9 and 0/5! They didnt quantifty. The ovoid L-forms

> depicted have dimensions like 3 um to 10 um. They stained heavily

on

> IEM with nonspecific polyclonal antibody raised against Bb. I dont

see

> that the world has much noticed this amazing work and I'm having a

> little bitterness trip on that. I understand Gay may also have

> observed something in recent years but I havent been able to get

that

> paper.

>

> The Prineas and Barnett 2004 finding is landmark, tho I found it

odd

> that they glossed over the fact that some developing MS lesions

they

> examined werent like the others, which they pretty much present as

a

> new stereotype of the development of lesions. What they found was

> universal oligodendrocyte apoptosis thruout the multi-milimeter

> lesions, occuring rapidly. I have no ideas for explaining this in

> terms of any spirochetal-infectious process, but I know nothing

about

> the brain.

>

> Finally, something I dont want to get into right now but which is

very

> important, are these finding suggesting autoimmune processes may be

> key in the pathology:

>

> 14688203 (cited by Wheldons paper), which demonstrated IgG

toxicity in

> vitro, but doesnt seem to address whether the IgG concentration

used

> was phsysiological(!) and

>

> 10683515 which I just saw

[Guest guest]

Ya. Man, this study was just on CSF. If I ever find out that the

Brorsons later tried to get access to MS brain tissue and were denied,

I'm just gonna scream and tear out my hair (dont worry, it comes out

easily).

Its too bad they couldnt get this published in Ann Neurol or the like,

rather than Infection.

> Hiya, good thoughts here.

>

> What you say at the end about evidence of autoimmune activity

> reminds me that I saw my immune panel results at LLMDs and my

> globulins were all quite high, with elevated lymphocytes in the CBC

> they did concurrently. Lymphs have spiked three times now.

>

> Oh joy.

>

> The spirochetal findings in MS are not getting anything like the

> attention they deserve because they are related to Lyme, and

> anything this spirochete touches gets assigned a low profile. It's

> easy to forget that when you spend time in the patient sites online,

> but in the real world, Lyme is still a non-entity for the most part.

>

> I am sure grateful to you for your researches on MS, . Top notch

> posts, a whole long string of them.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can't find the beginning of this thread. Any idea how many days

back it started? This is need to know info for my mom.

> > Hiya, good thoughts here.

> >

> > What you say at the end about evidence of autoimmune activity

> > reminds me that I saw my immune panel results at LLMDs and my

> > globulins were all quite high, with elevated lymphocytes in the

CBC

> > they did concurrently. Lymphs have spiked three times now.

> >

> > Oh joy.

> >

> > The spirochetal findings in MS are not getting anything like the

> > attention they deserve because they are related to Lyme, and

> > anything this spirochete touches gets assigned a low profile.

It's

> > easy to forget that when you spend time in the patient sites

online,

> > but in the real world, Lyme is still a non-entity for the most

part.

> >

> > I am sure grateful to you for your researches on MS, . Top

notch

> > posts, a whole long string of them.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ive been intermittantly posting about some reading about MS for 2 or 3

months, but its not on a single thread. As I do my studying, I'm

mainly just looking for what could shed light on pathogenesis of other

diseases, especially lyme. If I were concerned with treatment of MS

here and now, I would have emphasized very different aspects in

learning - so my parlor dalliance with various dusty and late-breaking

papers on MS shouldnt be taken very seriously. I really know nothing

about the disease, except for a few particular threads of the search

for its cause.

You might want to look at Wheldons writings on MS (see google).

He believes Chlamydia pneumoniae is a more likely microbial

contributer than spirochetes (which are his second concern). (Im not

too familiar with the evidence for Cpn's involvement.) His wife is in

a high state of recovery from MS thanks to an abx regime. He is

treating others and reports best results with early disease.

You might also look into the views of those who think MS is often

mis-dx'd lyme disease (see google). I dont know much about this. There

is at least one researcher who feels they cant really be told apart in

some cases - I havent read any publications by him.

A key thing to understand, IMO, is that Barnett and Prineas published

in 2004 that in the majority of new lesions, myelin-producing cells

(oligodendrocytes) die (by apoptosis) thruout the lesion before any

significant number of white cells arrive. This finding is unreplicated

so far but I think it is generating interest. If it becomes

established, MS research and theory will have to change radically.

> I can't find the beginning of this thread. Any idea how many days

> back it started? This is need to know info for my mom.

>

[Guest guest]

Try doing a search for " Hodologica " on the site, they'll come back

in chronological order, and he titles his posts pretty clearly so if

you nab the MS ones you'll probably have it.

I would like to request that when things like this come up someone

combine the thread in a text file and post it to the files section.

We need to have redundant storage of good info so we don't have the

same catasrophic loss we did when I & I version 1 went down.

Also, if you have specific questions about MS and tell us about them

I will look and Durmater may well have good feedback for you.

So glad you're joining us now and then on I & I, your JellyBellyNess.

[i love your name, it is more anatomically correct pour moi each day]

> > > Hiya, good thoughts here.

> > >

> > > What you say at the end about evidence of autoimmune activity

> > > reminds me that I saw my immune panel results at LLMDs and my

> > > globulins were all quite high, with elevated lymphocytes in

the

> CBC

> > > they did concurrently. Lymphs have spiked three times now.

> > >

> > > Oh joy.

> > >

> > > The spirochetal findings in MS are not getting anything like

the

> > > attention they deserve because they are related to Lyme, and

> > > anything this spirochete touches gets assigned a low profile.

> It's

> > > easy to forget that when you spend time in the patient sites

> online,

> > > but in the real world, Lyme is still a non-entity for the most

> part.

> > >

> > > I am sure grateful to you for your researches on MS, . Top

> notch

> > > posts, a whole long string of them.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

wrote in part: " my parlor dalliance with various dusty and late-

breaking papers on MS shouldnt be taken very seriously. "

,

I think you're too modest.

There are many people on this site who know more about neuro-Lyme

than a lot of neurologists. There's really no reason not to

acknowedge that, as long as we are careful not to overstate our

measure of understanding.

This list is uber-cool because no one here is all arrogant and nuts

and we are used to looking skeptically at each other's ideas. I

think we've got the distinction right, that you can question a claim

about an illness, but not the patient's self-assessment or personal

medical choices.

When you get that right, you can pretty well go to town sharing

research and debating various hypotheses, and no one gets their

knickers in a twist, so you get a lot done.

The name of the group, abbreviated, has that cool Reggae groove

going on...

We're jamming on the medical research

We get to laugh because this isn't church

We're jamming even though we're never sure

If what we're jamming on's a poison or a cure

Questions we must answer here somehow

Even though we dance in poop of sacred cow

I & I is good for you and me

Come to I & I and you will see

U & U should come to I & I

All of us be jamming by and by

....well, ok, I'm no Bob Marley. But you get the idea, eh? Modesty is

always the best policy, especially when you're naked, but there's

really no reason to let it get in the way of having fun.

PS: If you like my Reggae twist, remind me to share the Rap version,

as performed by my alter-ego, the Rap legend, Casual T.

> > I can't find the beginning of this thread. Any idea how many

days

> > back it started? This is need to know info for my mom.

> >