Was... Andy s must-see ...now RBC infection questions

[Guest guest]

Interesting, Barb. My white counts were consistently in the 12-14k

range the first year I was disabled by symptoms. Neutrophils and

lymphs both spiked off and on, never depressed. The only 'in range'

white counts I've had in the last three years have been during

antibiotic treatment.

I don't have a good baseline for comparison, though. I avoided going

to the doctor, for the most part, before I became disabled.

Since the illness knocked me down at the end of 2002, my temperature

has been depressed, no obvious fever. The Broda- basal temp

check in early 2003 was at 96-97.

I don't know of any evidence that those who are serology-confirmed

for BOTH Babs and Bb tend to run fevers, but that may be because the

fevers often occur early in the infection, or are masked by

depressed body temps.

All I know for sure is that the Babs studies (precious few of those)

which list fever as a dominant symptom don't seem to be specific for

patients also infected with Lyme, and Lyme patients who are dx'd

with Babesia don't seem to run fevers in any consistent way (defined

in absolute terms as body temps higher than 98.6).

I know that I had multiple bouts of what was diagnosed as " walking

pneumonia " with chills and low fever, about 14 months and then again

6 months before getting hit by disabling symptoms. I've heard

similar stories from enough Lymies to think you might be right about

fever but that in many it presents 'early,' before there is any

obvious reason to suspect Lyme, and is assumed by the patient to be

some 'normal' bug.

I remember being very aware with the 'walking pneumonia' in 1999 of

a fear response that didn't normally accompany being sick for me.

Until my health collapsed, I had always greeted sickness as an

annoyance, a disruption in the proper order of things. I thought I

was a tank. But in 1999 when I got sick in the UK I was so scared I

begged to be sent home early (they said no).

To my knowledge there is no family history of Sarcoidosis in my

case, as there is in yours, and I have a spleen, while you don't.

How those things may distinguish our illnesses is an interesting

question.

Did my immune system take enough of a dive by 2002 for the infection

to manifest as predominantly extracellular? Certainly by the

reasoning of most Lyme research (severity = spirochete load) my

symptoms are suggestive of a heavy load of motile spirochetes, more

than a predominantly intracellular infection. But my symptoms also

resemble your own reports, Barb, minus the toxic response to sun and

D, the nausea you report early on, and your fevers.

And I had that funky rash on lower legs, which was no EM, and has

remained, waxing with symptoms but never really waning. The rash was

recently diagnosed by a dermatologist as some unspecified

inflammatory response that causes the RBCs to rupture and spill

their iron content under the skin, creating the spots of

darker 'pigment'.

Two LLMDs have now told me testosterone deficiency is pretty much

the rule, not the exception, in their male patients. Does this

relate to the infected RBC angle?

Low testosterone can, among other things, depress RBC counts. When

testosterone is low, a study I've cited often reports, resistance to

blood parasites tanks (is that true of Babs, and of Lyme, as it is

of the worst strain of malaria? I tend to want to assume that it

is.)

There seems to be a broad assumption among LLMDs that the hormone

dysruptions occur when the bugs alter the function of the

more 'exposed' portions of the brain, specifically the hypothalamus.

I do think the bugs may have evolved naturally to favor this

hypothalamic dysfunction, if it serves their survival interest.

Which brings me back to my question. Does a diminished supply of new

RBCs inhibit the IS in dealing with infected RBCs? If it does, that

would give us one survival advantage for the bugs in lowering

testosterone levels, and commend treatments that raise RBC

production. I still wonder if the clinical hypothyroidism we see,

often with low but 'in range' serum levels, isn't the same kind of

thing. Depress the RBC count, lower the body temp, you've knocked

out to of the more obvious tools the body has to fight off RBC

infections.

Sorry this is long and rambly, but this RBC-as-host-cell business

has me wanting to rethink things.

> > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

link

> > found

> > > > at

> > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of LymeRICK?

> > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > >

> > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for many

> > hours. If

> > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a straight

> > smear,

> > > > but

> > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would not

be

> > too

> > > > much

> > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What do you

> > guys

> > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the prime

> > sanctuary

> > > > of

> > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source said the

> red

> > cell

> > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the immunological

> > policing of

> > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I dont

> > quite

> > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no MHC-I.

> > > > >

> > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like this

and

> > show

> > > > > it to the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > ======================================

> > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

videoclips

> of

> > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in blood

of

> > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

chronic

> > Lyme

> > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !

[Guest guest]

:

I'll answer with my opinion - who knows whether it's rights or not

though:

> > > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

> link

> > > found

> > > > > at

> > > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of LymeRICK?

> > > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for many

> > > hours. If

> > > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a straight

> > > smear,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would not

> be

> > > too

> > > > > much

> > > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What do

you

> > > guys

> > > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the prime

> > > sanctuary

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source said

the

> > red

> > > cell

> > > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the immunological

> > > policing of

> > > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I dont

> > > quite

> > > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no MHC-

I.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like this

> and

> > > show

> > > > > > it to the world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ======================================

> > > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

> videoclips

> > of

> > > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in

blood

> of

> > > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

> chronic

> > > Lyme

> > > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !

[Guest guest]

and Barb

I usually have high WBCs, especially the neutrophils, was misDx with

SLE as well but the steroids were a disaster other than a decrease in

joint stiffness. However early on my lymphocytes took a nose dive,

down to the levels seen in AIDS, and an abnormality in my macrophages

was observed but not understood, atypical lymphocytes were regularly

picked up as well.

I have atypical red blood cells too, one doctor I saw put this down

to gluten intolerance with iron and folic acid aenemias, the RBCs

improved over time but still get flagged on all the blood tests I

have had since 1983. Had real fevers very early one, then many low

grade fevers interspersed with periods of a low body temp, it was

always obvious to me infections were involved.

Just thinking out loud here - could intracellular pathogen inside the

red blood cells explain Les Simpson's research findings in CFS? Or be

why many of us keep testing with low red blood cell levels of various

essential vits/mins and glutathione

No one is my family has, or has had sarcoidosis. I suffer from heat

intolerance and learned I have to work at keeping cool in hot weather

especially my head, however sunlight itself seems to be good for me.

A sarc patient I know was complaining about how the recent rise in

light levels was adversely affecting her, I on the other hand was

feeling the benefits of it, no herxing or feeling worse days or weeks

later. She felt better during the winter months; I on the other hand,

having had to avoid the sun for months last summer due to my

reactions to heat, was experiencing some classic vit D deficiency

symptoms.

Cheers, Tansy

> > > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

> link

> > > found

> > > > > at

> > > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of LymeRICK?

> > > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for many

> > > hours. If

> > > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a straight

> > > smear,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would not

> be

> > > too

> > > > > much

> > > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What do

you

> > > guys

> > > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the prime

> > > sanctuary

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source said

the

> > red

> > > cell

> > > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the immunological

> > > policing of

> > > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I dont

> > > quite

> > > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no MHC-

I.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like this

> and

> > > show

> > > > > > it to the world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ======================================

> > > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

> videoclips

> > of

> > > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in

blood

> of

> > > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

> chronic

> > > Lyme

> > > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !

[Guest guest]

Tansy:

What country are you in.

Our blood profiles sound similar (and same dx-SLE).

Big diff is that I never took oral steroids or has the ocular

steroid injections to the back of the eye my Ohpth wanted to do

before I found out I had Lyme.

Once your tagged with an autoimmune disorder - most Docs will NOT

see past that - or insist you have multiple diseases.

IMO - your blood profiles are screaming infection.

Barb

> > > > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

> > link

> > > > found

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of LymeRICK?

> > > > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for

many

> > > > hours. If

> > > > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a

straight

> > > > smear,

> > > > > > but

> > > > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would

not

> > be

> > > > too

> > > > > > much

> > > > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What do

> you

> > > > guys

> > > > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the prime

> > > > sanctuary

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source said

> the

> > > red

> > > > cell

> > > > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the immunological

> > > > policing of

> > > > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I

dont

> > > > quite

> > > > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no

MHC-

> I.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like

this

> > and

> > > > show

> > > > > > > it to the world.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ======================================

> > > > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

> > videoclips

> > > of

> > > > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in

> blood

> > of

> > > > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

> > chronic

> > > > Lyme

> > > > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb

In the UK so not much hope of getting anything looked into or tests

for other infections, though may go for the Bowen test because I want

to check out babesia. Have also had low compliments 3 & 4 when tested

for. My symptoms mimic MS too; not seen a neuro for 17 years now, but

to be honest I now think that's a good thing.

Yep my blood tests scream infections, my symptoms scream infections,

my major herxes on very small doses of samento scream infections.

When AW's test showed up the borrelia infection I told my GP that

steroids were at the top of the list of contraindications and what

had happened when I was given them; she commented that's exactly what

would happen if I had an infection.

So here I am trying to treat these infections, or get them treated,

whilst most other PWME/CFS in the UK are being told they can be

rehabilitated or cured by CBT and graded aerobic exercise.

I saw a rheumy a year ago, spoke about infections and ISAC then,

silly me should have known better. There she treating RA, SLE, and

other AI diseases and no one in her department will even consider ABx

instead of steroids.

Cheers, Tansy

> > > > > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

> > > link

> > > > > found

> > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of

LymeRICK?

> > > > > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for

> many

> > > > > hours. If

> > > > > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a

> straight

> > > > > smear,

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would

> not

> > > be

> > > > > too

> > > > > > > much

> > > > > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What

do

> > you

> > > > > guys

> > > > > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the

prime

> > > > > sanctuary

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source

said

> > the

> > > > red

> > > > > cell

> > > > > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the

immunological

> > > > > policing of

> > > > > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I

> dont

> > > > > quite

> > > > > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no

> MHC-

> > I.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like

> this

> > > and

> > > > > show

> > > > > > > > it to the world.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ======================================

> > > > > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

> > > videoclips

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in

> > blood

> > > of

> > > > > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

> > > chronic

> > > > > Lyme

> > > > > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !

[Guest guest]

Hi

This is a short quote from Andy 's's talk at last year's Lyme

Disease Action conference in June last year in York (UK).

" One of the big questions is 'Is intra erythrocytic Borrelia a

problem?' Or is it only when Borrelia is in white cells that it's a

problem? I get a feeling from looking at hundreds of these slides

that when you see Borrelia coming out of a white cell, that's the

sickest people. You can get asymptomatic carriers where you only see

it coming out of a red cell. Bill's (Harvey) thought a lot about this

and it maybe that Borrelia enters in the red cell in the bone marrow

and it comes along and because our red cells only die every 120 days,

they just drip feed Borrelia.

I think maybe 5% of red cells are infected so there's a constant drip

feed into the system, then they become tissue invaders, and it just

keeps going and going and going. "

> > > > > > Hey, who has watched this vid by Drs. & Kroun -

> link

> > > found

> > > > > at

> > > > > > in the spirochetes section of the homepage of LymeRICK?

> > > > > > http://lymerick.ulmarweb.dk/

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Im surprised there hasnt been more shock about this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this may be blood left out on the slide for many

> > > hours. If

> > > > > > so it would be different from what youd see on a straight

> > > smear,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > given the ~12h ideal generation time of Bb, it would not

> be

> > > too

> > > > > much

> > > > > > more biomass than exists in circulating blood. What do

you

> > > guys

> > > > > > think about the idea that the red cell may be the prime

> > > sanctuary

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Bb - an idea I saw in one place once. That source said

the

> > red

> > > cell

> > > > > > was poorly penetrated by abx. As for the immunological

> > > policing of

> > > > > > the red cell, it may be poorly understood - if not I dont

> > > quite

> > > > > > understand it. Unlike those of mice, ours express no MHC-

I.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Someone should use fluorescent Ab to make video like this

> and

> > > show

> > > > > > it to the world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ======================================

> > > > > > Andy , Bolton UK – a collection of several

> videoclips

> > of

> > > > > > moving filamentous and granular structures filmed in

blood

> of

> > > > > > chronically ill UK patients diagnosed with CFS and/or

> chronic

> > > Lyme

> > > > > > disease (52 Mb) – A MUST SEE !