Re: Barb - bee venom & babs

[Guest guest]

Wow, that is a very smart and interesting question, . I'll be

watching for Barb's response, we can learn a lot by looking at how

things like this work.

It seems very striking to me that human red cells and bacteria have

this strong negative charge in common. Have you been speculating on

other possible ramifactions of that?

Fascinating stuff.

> Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms? Do

you

> know how?

>

> Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

charged]

> peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

probably

> farther) work this way.

>

> Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

significant

> negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> vulnerable to cationic peptides.

>

> I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

increased

> sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

stress

> or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Don't forget to read about " surfactin " a peptide that dissolves the

coating on viruses and bacteria. Surfactin is created by 2 types of

soil based organism's and found in the supplement " Primal Defense " by

Garden of Life.

Al

>

> > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms?

Do

> you

> > know how?

> >

> > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> charged]

> > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> probably

> > farther) work this way.

> >

> > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> significant

> > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> >

> > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> increased

> > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

> stress

> > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Is Surfactin, also, found in the similar, soil-based probiotic, Nature's

Biotics?

> [Original Message]

> From: melillo3 <melillo3@...>

> <infections >

> Date: 5/5/2005 8:29:28 PM

> Subject: [infections] Re: Barb - bee venom & babs

>

> Don't forget to read about " surfactin " a peptide that dissolves the

> coating on viruses and bacteria. Surfactin is created by 2 types of

> soil based organism's and found in the supplement " Primal Defense " by

> Garden of Life.

>

> Al

>

> >

> > > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms?

> Do

> > you

> > > know how?

> > >

> > > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> > charged]

> > > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> > > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> > probably

> > > farther) work this way.

> > >

> > > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> > significant

> > > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> > > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> > >

> > > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> > increased

> > > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

> > stress

> > > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It would probably kill me too as I am very allergic to bee venom. This

is one therapy I won't be trying.

> Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms? Do you

> know how?

>

> Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-charged]

> peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and probably

> farther) work this way.

>

> Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a significant

> negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> vulnerable to cationic peptides.

>

> I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have increased

> sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of stress

> or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Yes-

I used Beevenom therapy (BVT)in 1988 (1000 stings over 9 months)

and again in 1993 (a few hundred over 3 months) for

espisode where I was debiliated and no one knew what was really wrong

with me ( in 1988 they thought RA but I did not test pos on the RA

testing) and in 1993 they thought maybe MS.. or some unknown

viral infection.

I have a recent paper somewhere which indicates that the main

component Melittin can kill Babs- but I thinki it only killed one of

the life-cycle stages. Of course I didn't know this in 1988 or 1993.

Whatever- I now think that BVT was responsible for bringing me back

to a better state of health becuase it reduced the Babs load.

Barb

> Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms? Do

you

> know how?

>

> Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

charged]

> peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

probably

> farther) work this way.

>

> Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a significant

> negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> vulnerable to cationic peptides.

>

> I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have increased

> sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

stress

> or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

I've talked about Melittin being effective on Babs previously- quite

a few times- but I think it just may not have been noticed at the

time- things can get lost when the boards move along quickly.

Barb

> > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms?

Do

> you

> > know how?

> >

> > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> charged]

> > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> probably

> > farther) work this way.

> >

> > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> significant

> > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> >

> > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> increased

> > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

> stress

> > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Anything that's suspected to damage the lipi coat of bacteria or

virus, IMO is worth a try - but then either the immune system or an

abx should be in the system to finish them off.

Barb

> > > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms?

> Do

> > you

> > > know how?

> > >

> > > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> > charged]

> > > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> > > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> > probably

> > > farther) work this way.

> > >

> > > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> > significant

> > > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are

especially

> > > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> > >

> > > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> > increased

> > > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

> > stress

> > > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

I was trained/instructed by the late Chas. Mraz, who literally wrote

the book on BVT.

The chemistry in honey bee venom is not the same as the venom in

other stinging bees. Honey bee venom is completely soluble in

alchohol (so you can't ingest it or us it on you skin).

The reaction from the venom, in a healthy person, is just a little

bump with an irregulae wheal around it - it itches, and is gone in a

day.

The reaction to the venom in a sick person is an exaggerated

localized swelling (2 stings to my wrist when ill would sell my arm

to the elbow, and I'd have to hide it) Most people think this is an

allergic reaction, but it's not anaphalactic shock - which is

tightening of the chest, difficulty breathing- etc- which IS an

allergic reaction. 2 stings to my ankle would result in swelling to

the knee. You'd have to wait (sometimes a week) for the swelling to

go down before stinging again in those places.

From time to time, I'll capture a honey bee and just sting myself

to see the reaction, and I have a normal reaction- just like a

healthy person.

Like with any drug- dose (how many stings) and potency (how long

the venom sac was left in) is by body weight... and not to be

exceeded. Vit C and B have to be taken, and there a systemic

response to the venom and these Vits are needed.

AT the height of my dosing, I'd never for more than 6 stings at a

session, with the sacs left in about 5 minutes. I'd have a dramatic

releife in pain for about 3 or 4 days- and I could keep going. My

step daughter would do the back of my skull for me (I'd sting just

below the confulence of the sinuses (occiptal lobe on the right side

of the back of the skull).

It's not an easy therapy to do. You have to get bees every 3 weeks

or so- feed them, keep them, learn how to pick them up with long

nosed tweezers, place them on the spot, make them sting,dribe the

stinger in far enough so that when you remove them the sac is pulled

from their bodies, with the little muscles that pump in the venom.

and of course then kill them.. I sort of felt bad the whole time I

was doing it. And you also have to be care full you do not get

infections at the sting site.

There's more to it to learn that just getting a bunch of bees.

I don't talk about it alot, because I've found that people don't put

in the time they need to to learn about it - and alot can go wrong...

One time in winter I had to get bees that were half breeds (1/2

africanized, 1/2 european) because they were the only ones that could

be awakened in February...They are way more agressive than normal

honey bees... and afew got out an attacked - and they chase and go

for you face.. (a normal honey bee a pretty docile, and you sort of

have to make them sting you). Well- I got a bunch-o-stings all on my

face where I didn't want them in that session - so I drank 2 shots of

Scotch, and used alcohol on my face (and that kept me from looking

like I lost a prize fight.).

This is not an ALT therapy for the faint hearted.

Barb

> > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia organisms?

Do you

> > know how?

> >

> > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

charged]

> > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural physiological

> > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

probably

> > farther) work this way.

> >

> > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

significant

> > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are especially

> > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> >

> > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

increased

> > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort of

stress

> > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Barb Peck wrote, in part:

" This is not an ALT therapy for the faint hearted. "

Hehehe, you could say that again! [And probably will have to, since

I'm likely to forget].

On the other hand, I've been to some conventional med docs who make

your killer bees look user-friendly by comparison.

With this disease, you gotta pick your poison, and be ready to grab

a good single-malt when something goes wrong.

Now don't get mad at me for having a chuckle, Barb, because I know

damn well you didn't do this for the thrill of showing off your

cahones.

When someone is willing to sting themselves with killer bees for

pain relief, that ought to tell us something about the seriousness

of the pain.

I get it. I will be upset if anyone fails to get it, just because I

indulge in a bit of humor.

I admit, sometimes you do make me feel like a sissy, but Bob saves

my pride by pointing out that my neighbors are very relieved I am

not experimenting here with African bees. Probably not a do it

yourself job for me.

Then again, Bob didn't like my idea for vampire bat therapy, either.

I figured I'd find a cave, apply a mix of fresh blood and pheremones

to my neck, and wait for the little devils to swoop down for a taste

of me.

And you should have seen Bob's face when I asked him to go catch me

a tub full of jellyfish!

But the kicker was the day I signed up for the helminth-eating

contest. Bob simply refuses to believe that a diet of parasitic

worms is therapeutic. Can you imagine? *sighs* Healthy people,

whadda they know?

Personally, Barb, I think you should have your own public TV show,

where you tour the world highlighting dreadful-sounding but rock-

solid treatments for everything that ails us. Heck, with the groovy

way you wind up posts like these with 'whatever, it worked' I'm

thinking MTV might pick it up.

When you get to the vampire bat episode, just promise you'll fly me

out to do a live demo, I still think that one might help me.

As enfurter says in Rocky Horror,

" I'm not much of man by the light of day, but by night... "

Alright, I've probably annoyed you enough with my silliness for one

post. Let me try to atone by pointing out that I live in the alt med

capital of the west coast, and somewhere in Santa Cruz there will be

someone who knows how to do this bee venom dealie without starting a

riot.

I've read that people can become allergic over time. If you have an

epi-pen (they gave me one for the bicillin shots), would an

experimental sting be relatively 'safe'?

I have to ask, because if this thing worked on your pain there's a

real chance it might work on mine. I'm guessing bee venom is a hell

of a lot less constipating than opioids.

Also, I've always wanted to get to know a bee keeper. So many of my

favorite novels have honey-making in them. The Secret Life of Bees,

of course, but also the very wonderful " Bliss, " which was made into

a film, and features a gorgeous character called Honey-Barbara.

Harry Bliss is in love with her, and recalls her standing in a boat,

looking out on a lake, as " the vision splendid. "

You, Barb Peck, are " the vision splendid " to me. I want to go honey-

tasting with you! I want to come sample your wonderful ranch-fresh

eggs. I cook a great omelette, or used to.

Because of your posts, there are so many of us who will never feel

quite as helpless or hopeless again.

I am forever in your debt,

> > > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia

organisms?

> Do you

> > > know how?

> > >

> > > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> charged]

> > > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural

physiological

> > > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> probably

> > > farther) work this way.

> > >

> > > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> significant

> > > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are

especially

> > > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> > >

> > > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> increased

> > > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort

of

> stress

> > > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Thats interesting Barb... as a kid I got stung 8 or 10 times, but

never by a honeybee. Mostly yellow jacket wasps, and a couple times

thin-waisted brown wasps. I would get a nice searing swelling with an

inch or so radius. But at a later age, still healthy and fine, I

developed the full-limb type reaction you describe - a sting on my

elbow got me swollen up like a ballon from hand to shoulder, for at

least 2 days. I felt like if I got in a fight I could whack someone

down with a swing of my lead arm. I think that was the last time I got

stung, probably I was about 15. My mom also developed a new

hyperreaction sometime during that strech of years, she got stung on

the face and had her eyes swollen shut for a couple days, in fact I

think it happened twice and she had an epi at least for a while. I

wonder what its all about.

[Guest guest]

:

You're funny, flattering AND a poet- are you

sure you're not really the POPE??

In any case- I'm really laughing out loud.

And if you do try BVT- get educated about it first.

It has it's risks just like any other therapy.. and this

one really fits the 'pick your poison' billing.

Barb

> > > > Did you mention bee venom being able to kill babesia

> organisms?

> > Do you

> > > > know how?

> > > >

> > > > Melittin [a major active constituant] is a cationic [positive-

> > charged]

> > > > peptide. It accumulates in cell membranes and damages them by

> > > > uncertain means, causing cell lysis. Many natural

> physiological

> > > > antimicrobials in humans and animals down to fruit flies (and

> > probably

> > > > farther) work this way.

> > > >

> > > > Human red cells, as well as almost all bacteria, have a

> > significant

> > > > negative surface charge, which is partly why they are

> especially

> > > > vulnerable to cationic peptides.

> > > >

> > > > I'm wondering if red cells infected by babesia might have

> > increased

> > > > sensitivity to being lysed by melittin, because of some sort

> of

> > stress

> > > > or damage caused by the invading organism - do you think that

> > > > mechanism would be consistent with what you know?

[Guest guest]

Because of your posts, there are so many of us who will never feel

quite as helpless or hopeless again.

I am forever in your debt,

===============

Hi Barb,

Ditto.

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

Surfactin is created by 2 types of soil based organism's . I don't

know if the the Natures Biotics brand contains the specific bacteria,

ask the maker of that brand.

Al

> Is Surfactin, also, found in the similar, soil-based probiotic,

Nature's

> Biotics?