Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents for that matter, sick? I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying these organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), just like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? Yet they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that we're sick due to other, more common organisms that are being overlooked as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems to work too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down our endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on WHERE the organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding places that the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - so if blood can't get there...)? This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections around bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, etc are important. The immune system can't fight well in these places. Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came down with CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time after time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms into an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental work. I really think we need to look at locations other than inside the cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they being manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the focus or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, how are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? It's a self perpetuating cycle. Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a large number of people with lyme disease have periodontal disease? And of course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease can lead to heart disease. See any parallels? Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, and HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information that's right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints but not noticing the killer's still under the bed? penny > No, this isn't a reference to one of Quentin Tarantino's movies. > > K, Hendricks A, Burge D. > Molecular Identification and Analysis of Borrelia burgdorferi > Sensu Lato in Lizards in the Southeastern United States. > Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 May;71(5):2616-25. > PMID: 15870353 > > http://tinyurl.com/83wod > > > > Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Penny, can you point out the article about lyme/peridontitis? I'd like to check it out. The white-footed mouse is one of the major wild borrelial reservoirs. If I recall my reading, rates of demonstrable infection can reach 50%, the mice are asymptomatic, and seasonal infection rate fluctuations suggest that they probably clear the infection in months in most cases. There are also culture-confirmed asymptomatic human infections. I've had some of the same musings as you about borrelia. I even entertained that borrelia could somehow be a red herring, till I saw that Pachner had used borrelia to induce the erythema migrans rash in monkeys. And if you check out the IGeneX website, youll see they use negative control patients to calibrate the sensitivity of their western blots. Therefore the fact that they find so many sick people Bb-positive by WB presents a good correlation. But this doesnt rule out the fact that ones illness could cause a harmless Bb load to increase to a higher but still pretty harmless level, as most people seem to think is the case with EBV. Its just that there are a number of little clues that lead me to suspect not. I was very interested to read this week, in a huge clinical syhpilology monograph from 1946 (the thresshold of the penicillin age) that tertiary syphilis has sometimes been observed to activate following physical trauma, in formerly asymptomatic persons (the healthy latency period prior to tertiary syphilis can be 30 years). I thought that was fascinating with respect to people getting CFS following car accidents, etc. > Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents for > that matter, sick? > > I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying these > organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), just > like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? Yet > they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that we're > sick due to other, more common organisms that are being overlooked > as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these > organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems to work > too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down our > endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on WHERE the > organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding places that > the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - so if > blood can't get there...)? > > This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections around > bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, etc > are important. The immune system can't fight well in these places. > Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came down with > CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time after > time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms into > an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental work. > > I really think we need to look at locations other than inside the > cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they being > manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the focus > or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, how > are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? It's > a self perpetuating cycle. > > Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a large > number of people with lyme disease have periodontal disease? And of > course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease can > lead to heart disease. See any parallels? > > Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, and > HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information that's > right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints but > not noticing the killer's still under the bed? > > penny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Penny, can you point out the article about lyme/peridontitis? I'd like to check it out. The white-footed mouse is one of the major wild borrelial reservoirs. If I recall my reading, rates of demonstrable infection can reach 50%, the mice are asymptomatic, and seasonal infection rate fluctuations suggest that they probably clear the infection in months in most cases. There are also culture-confirmed asymptomatic human infections. I've had some of the same musings as you about borrelia. I even entertained that borrelia could somehow be a red herring, till I saw that Pachner had used borrelia to induce the erythema migrans rash in monkeys. And if you check out the IGeneX website, youll see they use negative control patients to calibrate the sensitivity of their western blots. Therefore the fact that they find so many sick people Bb-positive by WB presents a good correlation. But this doesnt rule out the fact that ones illness could cause a harmless Bb load to increase to a higher but still pretty harmless level, as most people seem to think is the case with EBV. Its just that there are a number of little clues that lead me to suspect not. I was very interested to read this week, in a huge clinical syhpilology monograph from 1946 (the thresshold of the penicillin age) that tertiary syphilis has sometimes been observed to activate following physical trauma, in formerly asymptomatic persons (the healthy latency period prior to tertiary syphilis can be 30 years). I thought that was fascinating with respect to people getting CFS following car accidents, etc. > Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents for > that matter, sick? > > I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying these > organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), just > like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? Yet > they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that we're > sick due to other, more common organisms that are being overlooked > as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these > organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems to work > too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down our > endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on WHERE the > organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding places that > the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - so if > blood can't get there...)? > > This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections around > bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, etc > are important. The immune system can't fight well in these places. > Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came down with > CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time after > time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms into > an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental work. > > I really think we need to look at locations other than inside the > cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they being > manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the focus > or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, how > are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? It's > a self perpetuating cycle. > > Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a large > number of people with lyme disease have periodontal disease? And of > course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease can > lead to heart disease. See any parallels? > > Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, and > HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information that's > right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints but > not noticing the killer's still under the bed? > > penny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 writes: " But this doesnt rule out the fact that ones illness could cause a harmless Bb load to increase to a higher but still pretty harmless level, as most people seem to think is the case with EBV. " : That's close to the philosophy I have. I'll be happy if my immune system can keep Bb at a population where I'm asymptomatic (with just a little help from abx once in a while). Barb > > Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents for > > that matter, sick? > > > > I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying these > > organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), just > > like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? Yet > > they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that we're > > sick due to other, more common organisms that are being overlooked > > as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these > > organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems to work > > too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down our > > endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on WHERE the > > organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding places that > > the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - so if > > blood can't get there...)? > > > > This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections around > > bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, etc > > are important. The immune system can't fight well in these places. > > Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came down with > > CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time after > > time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms into > > an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental work. > > > > I really think we need to look at locations other than inside the > > cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they being > > manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the focus > > or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, how > > are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? It's > > a self perpetuating cycle. > > > > Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a large > > number of people with lyme disease have periodontal disease? And of > > course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease can > > lead to heart disease. See any parallels? > > > > Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, and > > HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information that's > > right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints but > > not noticing the killer's still under the bed? > > > > penny > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 > > No, this isn't a reference to one of Quentin Tarantino's movies. > > > > K, Hendricks A, Burge D. > > Molecular Identification and Analysis of Borrelia burgdorferi > > Sensu Lato in Lizards in the Southeastern United States. > > Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 May;71(5):2616-25. > > PMID: 15870353 > > > > http://tinyurl.com/83wod > > > > > > > > Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 " I'll leave it for those of you much, much smarter than I to sort out, but if some of this is true, then why isn't everyone sick??? " > > Dummy Dan Dan, I don't know if you've read much of the medical literature on Lyme, but one common perception, pretty well supported by histopathology studies, is that with Lyme you get sick when the population of spirochetes reaches a certain threshold. There's nothing illogical about most people not hitting that threshold. If our immune systems weren't somewhat functional, the species would have died out. I suppose one could leap from there to assume that which pathogen gets you doesn't matter, the only real issue is why your immune system is letting ANY pathogen cause you grief. But that is not a very realistic view of things, in my opinion. First, some pathogens can bring about the immune-compromised state required for them to become virulent, even at very low densities. There are reasons to think Borrelia burgdorferi is one of them. Second, the study mentioned in your post says that at one particular point in time, only 15% of infected patients were ill. Only repeated follow-ups with the same groups of patients would tell you what percentage ultimately suffer disease as a result of infection. Third, whatever creates the vulnerability that turns infection to disease, once disease is present we have to deal with it and we won't do that more effectively by failing to look long and hard at how specific pathogens foster disease states. Even people who are asymptomatic for years of infection with Lyme may be headed for a showdown with the disease in later life. There is a reason I take the studies on Lyme and Alzheimer's seriously. Immune compromise is believed to occur with aging, so asymptomatic status in youth or midlife does not certify that the pathogen never causes disease. In short, while there are bonafide puzzles connected to Lyme disease, I really don't think " how come everyone doesn't react to infection in exactly the same way, at the same speed, no matter what' is one of them. To me, that is simply a hopeful variability, that if we ever get big, rigorous studies contrasting Lyme treatment responders and non-responders, may well point us in the direction of more effective treatments. I'm not sure what Penny meant by asking whether the animal carriers were sick, the fact that a lizard is well adapted to symbiosis with borrelia does not mean that I am or you are. Each species tries to make the best arrangements it can with the microbes it interacts with. So yeah, there are things that don't bother the mouse or the lizard that can cripple a human being. Is that really news? > > > > > > > Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents for > > that matter, sick? > > > > I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying > these > > organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), > just > > like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? Yet > > they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that we're > > sick due to other, more common organisms that are being > overlooked > > as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these > > organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems > to work > > too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down > our > > endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on > WHERE the > > organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding > places that > > the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - > so if > > blood can't get there...)? > > > > This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections > around > > bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, > etc > > are important. The immune system can't fight well in these > places. > > Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came > down with > > CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time > after > > time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms > into > > an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental > work. > > > > I really think we need to look at locations other than inside the > > cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they > being > > manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the > focus > > or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, > how > > are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? > It's > > a self perpetuating cycle. > > > > Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a large > > number of people with lyme disease have periodontal > disease? And of > > course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease > can > > lead to heart disease. See any parallels? > > > > Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, > and > > HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information > that's > > right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints but > > not noticing the killer's still under the bed? > > > > penny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, this isn't a reference to one of Quentin Tarantino's > movies. > > > > > > K, Hendricks A, Burge D. > > > Molecular Identification and Analysis of Borrelia burgdorferi > > > Sensu Lato in Lizards in the Southeastern United States. > > > Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 May;71(5):2616-25. > > > PMID: 15870353 > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/83wod > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Good point, . Are the ticks sick? Marie Each species tries to > make the best arrangements it can with the microbes it interacts > with. So yeah, there are things that don't bother the mouse or the > lizard that can cripple a human being. Is that really news? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I hate to ask it, but are any of these lizards, or rodents > for > > > that matter, sick? > > > > > > I mean, isn't it possible that the majority of us are carrying > > these > > > organisms (hence ALL the positive tests coming out of Igenex), > > just > > > like the majority of the population carries the herpes virus? > Yet > > > they're not making most people sick? Isn't it possible that > we're > > > sick due to other, more common organisms that are being > > overlooked > > > as normal flora? Or possibly it's the combination of all these > > > organisms, co-infections, that's causing our immune systems > > to work > > > too hard, creating rampant inflammation and wearing down > > our > > > endocrine systems? OR, is it possible that it depends on > > WHERE the > > > organisms have taken up residence, inpenetrable hiding > > places that > > > the immune system can't get to (blood IS the immune system - > > so if > > > blood can't get there...)? > > > > > > This is why dental infections, sinus infections, infections > > around > > > bone breaks, infections of organs like gall bladders, appendix, > > etc > > > are important. The immune system can't fight well in these > > places. > > > Have you ever noticed how many people claim that they came > > down with > > > CFS or FMS after a whiplash accident? I used to read this time > > after > > > time. Whip lash equals very tiny fractures, allowing organisms > > into > > > an extremely vulnerable part of the anatomy? Same with dental > > work. > > > > > > I really think we need to look at locations other than inside > the > > > cells alone. Where are these bugs thriving? Where are they > > being > > > manufactured to begin with? Where's the source? Where is the > > focus > > > or foci of infection? If we don't eradicate them at the source, > > how > > > are we ever going to be able to clean up on the cellular level? > > It's > > > a self perpetuating cycle. > > > > > > Did you notice in the article posted, that they find a > large > > > number of people with lyme disease have periodontal > > disease? And of > > > course they've scientifically proven that periodontal disease > > can > > > lead to heart disease. See any parallels? > > > > > > Where do these bugs like to hide out other than inside cells, > > and > > > HOW do we get rid of them? Are we looking past information > > that's > > > right in front of us? Like detectives dusting for fingerprints > but > > > not noticing the killer's still under the bed? > > > > > > penny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, this isn't a reference to one of Quentin Tarantino's > > movies. > > > > > > > > K, Hendricks A, Burge D. > > > > Molecular Identification and Analysis of Borrelia burgdorferi > > > > Sensu Lato in Lizards in the Southeastern United States. > > > > Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 May;71(5):2616-25. > > > > PMID: 15870353 > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/83wod > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 " kdrbrill " <kdrbrill@y...> wrote: but I still think it's our immune dysfunction that allows > WHATEVER bug or bugs or fungi, etc., to take hold. Yeah, I struggle with this question too. WHY can't we fight these bugs off? I'd be inclined to say we have weak immune systems, but in fact, I think our immune systems are in hyperdrive. Hence the overactive inflammation, the endocrine breakdown, the so-called " autoimmune " illnesses so many of us are dxd with, where our immune systems are attacking anything and everything in sight (I don't agree with this " autoimmune " dx - for example in autoimmune thyroid disease, I believe the thyroid is infected - there ARE studies to support this). No wonder we're sick and tired, with that kind of battle continuously raging. So the question is why do people with such varied backgrounds, i.e. athletes to homemakers to physicians come down with the same debilitating illnesses and symptoms? I've often thought that perhaps it's a combination of a number of things, like environmental factors (i.e. toxins), lifestyle (continuous stress), the fact that our food is no longer local but comes from all over the world exposing us to many, many more organisms, and perhaps some traumatic trigger, i.e. an accident, dental work (root canals are really bad), bone breaks, surgery, a tick bite, improper abx usage, that allows the bugs to get the upper hand. Maybe it's a combination of these factors that finally tips us over the edge from wellness to illness. I find it interesting that so many people seem to be going along just fine, have a minor trauma, and wham, they end up with CFS! I'm a slow onsetter however. And I do believe, looking back, that I haven't been truly healthy since I was a child, although appearances would say differently. Perhaps the deck was stacked against me. I wasn't breast fed (adopted), my parents were heavy smokers, my diet was less than fresh, I had immunizations like everyone else, I lived in perhaps an unhealthy environment (moldy?). I was sick a lot as a child with upper respiratory illnesses, and I was commonly given penicillin and codeine. Perhaps that was not such a great move. But whatever was going on back then seems to have taken hold, and eventually it overtook my entire life. :-( I've also been really shocked by the fact that I could have this raging infection in my bones and sinuses without being aware of it. Not until I was getting a second opinion on having my wisdom teeth removed, did the periodontist, during his below-the-gum line exam exclaim, PUS! AFter some dental surgery that made me much sicker, I had some scans done, and the new oral surgeon looks at them and says, 'I can't take that tooth out until you do something about your sinuses! They're completely infected!' And here I was, oblvious. I didn't have any of the typical sinus symptoms. I didn't have allergies. I didn't have aching teeth. And yet it turns out I'm a mass of infection, throughout my whole head (and my neck and my thyroid, now my shoulders, slowly moving on throughout my body). :-( Anyway, my concern is that we don't get so narrowly focused that we don't see the big picture. Why do we get sick with a particular bug and our siblings don't? But then the dog does? I think knowing how the organisms took hold, i.e. where we're weakest, where the entry point is, may be a big part of the puzzle in figuring out how to block off those entries and how to prevent the invaders from coming back. We may be dealing with many bugs, not just one or two. If you don't know your enemies and all they ways they fight to get the upper hand, you'll never be able to beat them. penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 The problem is, ticks and their bugs have been around for millions of years. Why is there an epidemic among humans now? It may very well be that there's some triggering factor that's suddenly causing tick born bacteria to be disabling to humans (especially in the West). But why? This is an issue, because getting lyme bugs dx'd is difficult and not definitive to begin with, which seems to make people all the more fixated on them as the culprits, and the medical field fixated on saying they're not. I'm not saying that these organisms are not a major factor in our illnesses, but I mean, we have to at least consider the possibility that it's not just the tick (and lizard) borne bacteria alone making people this sick. It could be a combination of factors, or a combination of bugs. Overlooked due to tunnel vision. In the scientific world, people need to focus on one area and really understand it, but out here in the real world, I don't have the luxury to follow one line of thought exclusively and ignore all the others. I don't know if I have lyme disease or not. I do know a lot of people with my symptoms who ARE dx'd with lyme disease. Somehow that knowledge hasn't helped them get well. In fact, I'm doing better than many. Unfortunatley, that ain't saying a lot. My point is (I guess), that while you're chasing after lyme bugs, don't forget to look at other factors, symptoms of your illness that may be caused by other things. I.E. get those tonsils checked, those sinuses. See if you're infected with MRSA staph and mold. See if those root canals have failed and you just can't feel anything because the nerves are dead. It's remotely possible that if you get any of those other things fixed, you'll clear up some of the bugs hiding places and you will get a lot better. Especially if you're young!!!! penny > Each species tries to make the best arrangements it can with the microbes it interacts with. So yeah, there are things that don't bother the mouse or the lizard that can cripple a human being. Is that really news? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Oh, and we need to look a lot more at coagulation disorders. Is hyper coagulation purely the result of the infection, or is it a true genetic defect (see Gleuck)? Is our own blood one of the reasons we can't fight these orgnisms off? I know one thing, if you've got genetic clotting disorders (as so many who've been dx'd with osteomyelitis do), don't EVER have a root canal. penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Penny, this is an outstanding post! > but I still think it's our immune dysfunction that allows > > WHATEVER bug or bugs or fungi, etc., to take hold. > > Yeah, I struggle with this question too. WHY can't we fight these bugs > off? I'd be inclined to say we have weak immune systems, but in fact, > I think our immune systems are in hyperdrive. Hence the overactive > inflammation, the endocrine breakdown, the so-called " autoimmune " > illnesses so many of us are dxd with, where our immune systems are > attacking anything and everything in sight (I don't agree with > this " autoimmune " dx - for example in autoimmune thyroid disease, I > believe the thyroid is infected - there ARE studies to support this). > No wonder we're sick and tired, with that kind of battle continuously > raging. > > So the question is why do people with such varied backgrounds, i.e. > athletes to homemakers to physicians come down with the same > debilitating illnesses and symptoms? > > I've often thought that perhaps it's a combination of a number of > things, like environmental factors (i.e. toxins), lifestyle > (continuous stress), the fact that our food is no longer local but > comes from all over the world exposing us to many, many more > organisms, and perhaps some traumatic trigger, i.e. an accident, > dental work (root canals are really bad), bone breaks, surgery, a tick > bite, improper abx usage, that allows the bugs to get the upper hand. > > Maybe it's a combination of these factors that finally tips us over > the edge from wellness to illness. I find it interesting that so many > people seem to be going along just fine, have a minor trauma, and > wham, they end up with CFS! > > I'm a slow onsetter however. And I do believe, looking back, that I > haven't been truly healthy since I was a child, although appearances > would say differently. Perhaps the deck was stacked against me. I > wasn't breast fed (adopted), my parents were heavy smokers, my diet > was less than fresh, I had immunizations like everyone else, I lived > in perhaps an unhealthy environment (moldy?). I was sick a lot as a > child with upper respiratory illnesses, and I was commonly given > penicillin and codeine. Perhaps that was not such a great move. But > whatever was going on back then seems to have taken hold, and > eventually it overtook my entire life. :-( > > I've also been really shocked by the fact that I could have this > raging infection in my bones and sinuses without being aware of it. > Not until I was getting a second opinion on having my wisdom teeth > removed, did the periodontist, during his below-the-gum line exam > exclaim, PUS! AFter some dental surgery that made me much sicker, I > had some scans done, and the new oral surgeon looks at them and > says, 'I can't take that tooth out until you do something about your > sinuses! They're completely infected!' > > And here I was, oblvious. I didn't have any of the typical sinus > symptoms. I didn't have allergies. I didn't have aching teeth. And yet > it turns out I'm a mass of infection, throughout my whole head (and my > neck and my thyroid, now my shoulders, slowly moving on throughout my > body). :-( > > Anyway, my concern is that we don't get so narrowly focused that we > don't see the big picture. > > Why do we get sick with a particular bug and our siblings don't? But > then the dog does? I think knowing how the organisms took hold, i.e. > where we're weakest, where the entry point is, may be a big part of > the puzzle in figuring out how to block off those entries and how to > prevent the invaders from coming back. > > We may be dealing with many bugs, not just one or two. If you don't > know your enemies and all they ways they fight to get the upper hand, > you'll never be able to beat them. > > penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Penny If you do a Google search using the word hypercoagulation you will come up with 2 different meanings. One is the more common form, the one that causes blood clots, often associated with various genetic disorders. Then second you will find is the one that is talked about more and more often and pertains mostly to those with chronic infection. If you do a Google search and type in hypercoagulation AND CFS or FM or even Lyme you will come up with information on the type that plays a role in keeping us sick or making it a lot harder to get well. A hypercoagulable state is common in a lot of situations among the healthy. It happens during pregnancy and when you get sick. What the purpose is, I'm not sure. It really becomes a problem when one is chronically sick like we are. Then if you happen to be someone who has the genetic clotting problems, you can end up with a far more dangerous situation. Blood clots moving thourgh very thick and sticky blood, that is carrying not enough oxygen. I don't think near enough people pay attention to hypercoagulation. The situation it creates is toxic in itself. You don't even have to go straight for the heparin. Things are being found like NattoKinase that do a really good job of thinning the blood to a more normal state. All of the digestive enzymes are great when taken on an empty stomach. When we are toxic and/or herxing, the enzymes clean up the debris left behind after the dieoff. You have a win-win situation all the way around. > Oh, and we need to look a lot more at coagulation disorders. Is hyper > coagulation purely the result of the infection, or is it a true > genetic defect (see Gleuck)? Is our own blood one of the reasons we > can't fight these orgnisms off? > > I know one thing, if you've got genetic clotting disorders (as so many > who've been dx'd with osteomyelitis do), don't EVER have a root canal. > > penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 I sometimes wonder if these things relate to a chronic febrile condition, that the body has adapted too with overkill, so that we tend to be hypo- in body temp. In my experience, there is a yin yang thing where if one thing is " hyper " another thing is " hypo " in consequence. There are these altered equilibriums, where one plateaus for a while, though I personally have not had the leisure of a true plateau yet. > > Oh, and we need to look a lot more at coagulation disorders. Is > hyper > > coagulation purely the result of the infection, or is it a true > > genetic defect (see Gleuck)? Is our own blood one of the reasons we > > can't fight these orgnisms off? > > > > I know one thing, if you've got genetic clotting disorders (as so > many > > who've been dx'd with osteomyelitis do), don't EVER have a root > canal. > > > > penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 I think we.. in the developed world.. just sometimes don't realize that bacteria and virus have been infecting and killing humans (and other animals and birds) for eons. Life expectancy was much shorter not that long ago, and it wan't cuz more people were be hit by horses.. it was the buggys (oh just couldn't resist). Barb > > but I still think it's our immune dysfunction that allows > > > WHATEVER bug or bugs or fungi, etc., to take hold. > > > > Yeah, I struggle with this question too. WHY can't we fight these > bugs > > off? I'd be inclined to say we have weak immune systems, but in > fact, > > I think our immune systems are in hyperdrive. Hence the overactive > > inflammation, the endocrine breakdown, the so-called " autoimmune " > > illnesses so many of us are dxd with, where our immune systems are > > attacking anything and everything in sight (I don't agree with > > this " autoimmune " dx - for example in autoimmune thyroid disease, > I > > believe the thyroid is infected - there ARE studies to support > this). > > No wonder we're sick and tired, with that kind of battle > continuously > > raging. > > > > So the question is why do people with such varied backgrounds, > i.e. > > athletes to homemakers to physicians come down with the same > > debilitating illnesses and symptoms? > > > > I've often thought that perhaps it's a combination of a number of > > things, like environmental factors (i.e. toxins), lifestyle > > (continuous stress), the fact that our food is no longer local but > > comes from all over the world exposing us to many, many more > > organisms, and perhaps some traumatic trigger, i.e. an accident, > > dental work (root canals are really bad), bone breaks, surgery, a > tick > > bite, improper abx usage, that allows the bugs to get the upper > hand. > > > > Maybe it's a combination of these factors that finally tips us > over > > the edge from wellness to illness. I find it interesting that so > many > > people seem to be going along just fine, have a minor trauma, and > > wham, they end up with CFS! > > > > I'm a slow onsetter however. And I do believe, looking back, that > I > > haven't been truly healthy since I was a child, although > appearances > > would say differently. Perhaps the deck was stacked against me. I > > wasn't breast fed (adopted), my parents were heavy smokers, my > diet > > was less than fresh, I had immunizations like everyone else, I > lived > > in perhaps an unhealthy environment (moldy?). I was sick a lot as > a > > child with upper respiratory illnesses, and I was commonly given > > penicillin and codeine. Perhaps that was not such a great move. > But > > whatever was going on back then seems to have taken hold, and > > eventually it overtook my entire life. :-( > > > > I've also been really shocked by the fact that I could have this > > raging infection in my bones and sinuses without being aware of > it. > > Not until I was getting a second opinion on having my wisdom teeth > > removed, did the periodontist, during his below-the-gum line exam > > exclaim, PUS! AFter some dental surgery that made me much sicker, > I > > had some scans done, and the new oral surgeon looks at them and > > says, 'I can't take that tooth out until you do something about > your > > sinuses! They're completely infected!' > > > > And here I was, oblvious. I didn't have any of the typical sinus > > symptoms. I didn't have allergies. I didn't have aching teeth. And > yet > > it turns out I'm a mass of infection, throughout my whole head > (and my > > neck and my thyroid, now my shoulders, slowly moving on throughout > my > > body). :-( > > > > Anyway, my concern is that we don't get so narrowly focused that > we > > don't see the big picture. > > > > Why do we get sick with a particular bug and our siblings don't? > But > > then the dog does? I think knowing how the organisms took hold, > i.e. > > where we're weakest, where the entry point is, may be a big part > of > > the puzzle in figuring out how to block off those entries and how > to > > prevent the invaders from coming back. > > > > We may be dealing with many bugs, not just one or two. If you > don't > > know your enemies and all they ways they fight to get the upper > hand, > > you'll never be able to beat them. > > > > penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Barb's Horse and Buggy Theory of chronic infection...I love it! > > > but I still think it's our immune dysfunction that allows > > > > WHATEVER bug or bugs or fungi, etc., to take hold. > > > > > > Yeah, I struggle with this question too. WHY can't we fight these > > bugs > > > off? I'd be inclined to say we have weak immune systems, but in > > fact, > > > I think our immune systems are in hyperdrive. Hence the > overactive > > > inflammation, the endocrine breakdown, the so- called " autoimmune " > > > illnesses so many of us are dxd with, where our immune systems > are > > > attacking anything and everything in sight (I don't agree with > > > this " autoimmune " dx - for example in autoimmune thyroid disease, > > I > > > believe the thyroid is infected - there ARE studies to support > > this). > > > No wonder we're sick and tired, with that kind of battle > > continuously > > > raging. > > > > > > So the question is why do people with such varied backgrounds, > > i.e. > > > athletes to homemakers to physicians come down with the same > > > debilitating illnesses and symptoms? > > > > > > I've often thought that perhaps it's a combination of a number of > > > things, like environmental factors (i.e. toxins), lifestyle > > > (continuous stress), the fact that our food is no longer local > but > > > comes from all over the world exposing us to many, many more > > > organisms, and perhaps some traumatic trigger, i.e. an accident, > > > dental work (root canals are really bad), bone breaks, surgery, a > > tick > > > bite, improper abx usage, that allows the bugs to get the upper > > hand. > > > > > > Maybe it's a combination of these factors that finally tips us > > over > > > the edge from wellness to illness. I find it interesting that so > > many > > > people seem to be going along just fine, have a minor trauma, and > > > wham, they end up with CFS! > > > > > > I'm a slow onsetter however. And I do believe, looking back, that > > I > > > haven't been truly healthy since I was a child, although > > appearances > > > would say differently. Perhaps the deck was stacked against me. I > > > wasn't breast fed (adopted), my parents were heavy smokers, my > > diet > > > was less than fresh, I had immunizations like everyone else, I > > lived > > > in perhaps an unhealthy environment (moldy?). I was sick a lot as > > a > > > child with upper respiratory illnesses, and I was commonly given > > > penicillin and codeine. Perhaps that was not such a great move. > > But > > > whatever was going on back then seems to have taken hold, and > > > eventually it overtook my entire life. :-( > > > > > > I've also been really shocked by the fact that I could have this > > > raging infection in my bones and sinuses without being aware of > > it. > > > Not until I was getting a second opinion on having my wisdom > teeth > > > removed, did the periodontist, during his below-the-gum line exam > > > exclaim, PUS! AFter some dental surgery that made me much sicker, > > I > > > had some scans done, and the new oral surgeon looks at them and > > > says, 'I can't take that tooth out until you do something about > > your > > > sinuses! They're completely infected!' > > > > > > And here I was, oblvious. I didn't have any of the typical sinus > > > symptoms. I didn't have allergies. I didn't have aching teeth. > And > > yet > > > it turns out I'm a mass of infection, throughout my whole head > > (and my > > > neck and my thyroid, now my shoulders, slowly moving on > throughout > > my > > > body). :-( > > > > > > Anyway, my concern is that we don't get so narrowly focused that > > we > > > don't see the big picture. > > > > > > Why do we get sick with a particular bug and our siblings don't? > > But > > > then the dog does? I think knowing how the organisms took hold, > > i.e. > > > where we're weakest, where the entry point is, may be a big part > > of > > > the puzzle in figuring out how to block off those entries and how > > to > > > prevent the invaders from coming back. > > > > > > We may be dealing with many bugs, not just one or two. If you > > don't > > > know your enemies and all they ways they fight to get the upper > > hand, > > > you'll never be able to beat them. > > > > > > penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 " Barb Peck " <egroups1bp@y...> wrote: > I think we.. in the developed world.. just sometimes > don't realize that bacteria and virus have been infecting and > killing humans (and other animals and birds) for eons. Yeah, this is true too, but this chronic, low level of misery which becomes more and more debilitating wasn't nearly so common. I've read where some people claim that CFS has always been around, i.e. those folks from earlier times (usually women) who were described as " sickly " or having " weak constitutions " . But they were considered exceptions to the norm. Now we've got all kinds of crazy " autoimmune " and mystery illnesses that just keep us miserable without killing us outright. I really think we've weakened ourselves and created these monster bugs at the same time, through our changing lifestyles and medical practices. We may be living longer, but we seem to be getting less healthy all the time. penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 I think I was mostly asymptomatic for most of my life, only becoming sick at age 39 after a lot of stress. But to tell you the truth, I'd just as soon catch it now and have a chance to avoid Alzheimer's later. I just hope those of us who know we have Lyme really can avoid such a fate. - Kate On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 08:05 PM, Schaafsma wrote: > Even people who are asymptomatic for years of infection with Lyme > may be headed for a showdown with the disease in later life. There > is a reason I take the studies on Lyme and Alzheimer's seriously. > Immune compromise is believed to occur with aging, so asymptomatic > status in youth or midlife does not certify that the pathogen never > causes disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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