Re: person to person Bb transmission/dan

[Guest guest]

Duramater,

I agree with what you said about families living in the same area

all could be exposed to the same ticks. In my family that may be

partialy what happened. Where I got bit, was the same place that my

parents lived. In the Sierra Nevada's. It is possible that if my

husband is sick with Lyme that he may have gotten it there too,

since that is where he lived when we met. That's where your idea

ends for my family though.

I left the mountains as a teenager. I moved along the coast of S.

California. My daughter was born there. My son was born in Hawaii.

They have lived along the coast their whole lives. We have visited

my mountain home, but it is usually in the winter. So I suppose it

is possible that they might have been bitten and also contracted

Lyme while on a vacation there, but it seems far more likely that

they got it from me.

> --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

>

> > And finally:

> >

> > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced Lyme

> > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995 Dr.

> > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47 persons

> > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

positive

> > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41

> > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral

> > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > complete recovery of several patients with terminal amyotrophic

> > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great

> > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> >

>

> I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am INCREDIBLY

> skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person transmission.

> I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal

reports

> of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is NEVER

> controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME

PLACE

> thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You don't need

> person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family being

> infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's not

that

> I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable and

the

> data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this point.

>

> Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these various

> diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the Bb

> measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR is

> about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining that all

> these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not taking

> that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are 2 or 3

> papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection -- one

> found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in NONE

of

> the patients. At this point, I think the data support that SOME

> cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb infections,

but

> I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

diseases

> are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the answer is

> going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

Isn't transmission through the placenta well established? I thought

the only question was transmission between people outside the womb.

> > --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> > <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

> >

> > > And finally:

> > >

> > > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced Lyme

> > > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995 Dr.

> > > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47

persons

> > > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

> positive

> > > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41

> > > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral

> > > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > > complete recovery of several patients with terminal

amyotrophic

> > > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great

> > > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> > >

> >

> > I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am

INCREDIBLY

> > skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person transmission.

> > I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal

> reports

> > of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is NEVER

> > controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME

> PLACE

> > thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You don't

need

> > person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family being

> > infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's not

> that

> > I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable and

> the

> > data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this

point.

> >

> > Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these various

> > diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the Bb

> > measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR is

> > about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining that

all

> > these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not

taking

> > that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are 2 or

3

> > papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection -- one

> > found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in NONE

> of

> > the patients. At this point, I think the data support that SOME

> > cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb infections,

> but

> > I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

> diseases

> > are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the answer is

> > going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

Oh, person to person that way. They find the buggers in all kinds of

bodily fluids, even tears. How hard can that be to spread around?.

So, let me make this arguement. In the area I grew up in people are

outdoors all of the time. That's why they live there, to be with

nature. They hunt, they fish, they camp, etc. If it was that easy

for most of a family to get Lyme then it would seem it would be that

easy for the rest of the population there and that there would be a

HUGE epidemic. This area isn't even considered a hot spot. We lived

in the same house, but we didn't follow each other around all day.

It isn't even like we worked a farm and all tilled the same land. I

went to school and played outside, my dad worked which most of the

time he was in a truck and my mom worked at home.

My brother isn't sick, but that is 3 out of 4 that are. If you apply

that kind of odds to the community, it would be epidemic.

> > > --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> > > <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

> > >

> > > > And finally:

> > > >

> > > > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced

Lyme

> > > > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995 Dr.

> > > > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47

> persons

> > > > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

> > positive

> > > > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > > > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41

> > > > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral

> > > > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > > > complete recovery of several patients with terminal

> amyotrophic

> > > > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great

> > > > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am

> INCREDIBLY

> > > skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person

transmission.

> > > I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal

> > reports

> > > of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is

NEVER

> > > controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME

> > PLACE

> > > thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You don't

> need

> > > person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family

being

> > > infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's not

> > that

> > > I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable

and

> > the

> > > data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this

> point.

> > >

> > > Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these various

> > > diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the Bb

> > > measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR

is

> > > about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining that

> all

> > > these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not

> taking

> > > that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are 2

or

> 3

> > > papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection --

one

> > > found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in

NONE

> > of

> > > the patients. At this point, I think the data support that

SOME

> > > cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb

infections,

> > but

> > > I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

> > diseases

> > > are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the answer

is

> > > going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't know if placenta or breast feeding is _well_

established, but I believe there are data supporting it. I wasn't

clear though because I was thinking aside from that sort of person-

to-person transmission.... so thanks for bringing up that question

for clarification.

Also, my understanding is that this Bowen test and Mattman's

approach is visualizing bugs in the cells/blood. The problem with

that is knowing EXACTLY what is being seen in the absence of growing

it out/DNA analysis. You can see something intracellularly, but how

do we know exactly what it is? I'm also quite confused, for lack of

a better term, as to how Bowen test/Mattman ascertains that the

cyst/CWD form that is observed is specifically Bb. Or if one

visualizes spirochete forms, again, how is that known to be Bb as

opposed to the spirochetes that are benign and reside in our mouths

for example (often causing a positive 41Kd band on the WB, why that

is a CDC Bb marker is beyond me, but that is another issue). Does

anyone know the answers to these questions or maybe could direct me

to some literature. I'd be very interested in learning more...

> > > --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> > > <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

> > >

> > > > And finally:

> > > >

> > > > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced

Lyme

> > > > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995 Dr.

> > > > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47

> persons

> > > > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

> > positive

> > > > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > > > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41

> > > > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral

> > > > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > > > complete recovery of several patients with terminal

> amyotrophic

> > > > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great

> > > > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am

> INCREDIBLY

> > > skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person

transmission.

> > > I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal

> > reports

> > > of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is

NEVER

> > > controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME

> > PLACE

> > > thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You don't

> need

> > > person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family

being

> > > infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's not

> > that

> > > I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable

and

> > the

> > > data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this

> point.

> > >

> > > Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these various

> > > diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the Bb

> > > measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR

is

> > > about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining that

> all

> > > these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not

> taking

> > > that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are 2

or

> 3

> > > papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection --

one

> > > found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in

NONE

> > of

> > > the patients. At this point, I think the data support that

SOME

> > > cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb

infections,

> > but

> > > I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

> > diseases

> > > are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the answer

is

> > > going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

Perhaps there is an epidemic of Bb infection in your area. First,

we don't know what percentage of people are asymptomatic. Second,

even if we tested everyone, we know that the tests are not

sufficiently sensitive, so that wouldn't capture everyone either.

Third, the proportion of ticks that are infected and how they are

distributed in a particular geographic area are also crucial

variables (which may account for why not everyone is affected).

Lastly, the other variables include the duration and timing of

outdoor/tick exposure.

In short, evidence that a family is 3/4 infected and scaling up to

the local population is problematic for all of the above reasons.

As for any studies supporting Bb in tears, for example, their

viability time, and infection rate, we'll I've not seen those. Do

you have any references I can take a look at?

> > > > --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> > > > <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

> > > >

> > > > > And finally:

> > > > >

> > > > > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced

> Lyme

> > > > > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995

Dr.

> > > > > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47

> > persons

> > > > > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

> > > positive

> > > > > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > > > > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease,

41

> > > > > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic

lateral

> > > > > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > > > > complete recovery of several patients with terminal

> > amyotrophic

> > > > > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the

great

> > > > > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am

> > INCREDIBLY

> > > > skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person

> transmission.

> > > > I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal

> > > reports

> > > > of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is

> NEVER

> > > > controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE

SAME

> > > PLACE

> > > > thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You

don't

> > need

> > > > person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family

> being

> > > > infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's

not

> > > that

> > > > I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable

> and

> > > the

> > > > data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this

> > point.

> > > >

> > > > Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these

various

> > > > diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the

Bb

> > > > measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR

> is

> > > > about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining

that

> > all

> > > > these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not

> > taking

> > > > that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are

2

> or

> > 3

> > > > papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection --

> one

> > > > found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in

> NONE

> > > of

> > > > the patients. At this point, I think the data support that

> SOME

> > > > cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb

> infections,

> > > but

> > > > I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

> > > diseases

> > > > are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the

answer

> is

> > > > going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

Dura:

Yah you nailed it.

If the measurement testing isn't controlled, standardized

and reliable, then we'll be forever guessing..

and that unfortunately is the sorry state we're in

(and HAVE been in).

Barb

> --- In infections , " kdrbrill "

> <kdrbrill@y...> wrote [iN PART:

>

> > And finally:

> >

> > " Bacteriologist, Dr. Lida Mattman, states " I'm convinced Lyme

> > disease is transmissable from person to person " . In 1995 Dr.

> > Mattman obtained positive cultures for Bb from 43 of 47 persons

> > with chronic illness. Only 1 of 23 control patients had a

positive

> > Bb culture. Dr. Mattman has subsequently recovered Bb

> > spirochetes from 8 out of 8 cases of Parkinson's Disease, 41

> > cases of multiple sclerosis, 21 cases of amyotrophic lateral

> > sclerosis and all tested cases of Alzheimer's Disease. The

> > complete recovery of several patients with terminal amyotrophic

> > lateral sclerosis after appropriate therapy shows the great

> > importance of establishing the diagnosis of Lyme Disease. "

> >

>

> I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am INCREDIBLY

> skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person transmission.

> I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal reports

> of family members all having Lyme, etc. The thing that is NEVER

> controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME PLACE

> thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks. You don't need

> person-to-person transmission to explain an entire family being

> infected with Bb if they all live in the same place. It's not that

> I don't think its possible, but I don't think it's probable and the

> data simply don't exist to support such transmission at this point.

>

> Now as for the data that Mattman found Bb in all these various

> diseases. Possible, maybe, but the question is how is the Bb

> measured? Nearly everone has trouble culturing the bug, PCR is

> about 45% sensitive, etc. So how is Mattman ascertaining that all

> these people are infected? Bowen-type test? Sorry, I'm not taking

> that as definitive data at this point. Moreover, there are 2 or 3

> papers in the literature on Alzheimer's and Bb infection -- one

> found Bb in some of the patients' and the other found in in NONE of

> the patients. At this point, I think the data support that SOME

> cases of ALS, MS, Parkinson's, etc. are actually Bb infections, but

> I think it is much too early to say that all cases of these

diseases

> are in fact due to Bb infections... I don't think the answer is

> going to be that " easy. "

[Guest guest]

I don't think my son was exposed to any ticks before 9 months of age.

That's when his symptoms became undeniable. However, perhaps you are

accepting in-utero transmission but not other person-to-person

transmission....

I'm pretty sure I got my Lyme disease in Massachusetts and other

members of my family have not lived there. My husband hasn't been

tested, but I'll let you know if we ever get any interesting results.

- Kate

> I have to say, as an experimental scientist, that I am INCREDIBLY

> skeptical at this point about Bb person-to-person transmission. 

> I've seen these data before as well as the myriad anecdotal reports

> of family members all having Lyme, etc.  The thing that is NEVER

> controlled for is the fact that these people LIVE IN THE SAME PLACE

> thereby all exposed to the same environment/ticks.