Question

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/27/2000 12:19:33 PM Central Daylight Time,

josefa@... writes:

<<

On the subject of saints, Jung mentioned in MDR feeling sorry for a

schoolfriend who had a supposedly saintly father, and said that he loved his

own father precisely *for* his weaknesses. So, take heart - we sinners are

in good company.

>>

Right! As you know I am on the same boat as you, fa. Jungians have the

best take on this since they know that even saints carry a shadow (as well as

that old narcissist, the Ego). The more " saintly " the deeper and darker the

shadow and- to tie in with Cov's suggestion- the capacity for and actuality

of evil comes from those who do not understand this. The Swaggart syndrome!

Note on the Hebrew Scriptures. The writers were not afraid to include the

shadow side of the patriarchs and matriarchs, were they?

Gene

[Guest guest]

Cov, Wow I didn't realize the number of saints on Jung-Fire! I assumed you were

speaking of feelings, thoughts and the things that go bump in the night.

Obviously, I am the only one besides you who ever had a nasty thought! When I

wrote before, i like you, was not talking about what I do, but what sometimes

slips into my mind.

Of course we don't strike out in anger, of course we don't actually shoot

people, of course, we try to act in a mature, non violent way. I was speaking

of 69 years of life, and I do remember my rebelliousness and aggression in the

face of verbal abuse. I remember my feelings of vengeance at being made fun of,

I remember the rage and violence I felt when I got picked on by the class

bully. I also remember as a mother, wanting to wipe up the street with the

other kid's mother who screamed at my children, I wanted to defend my kids for

everybody, although I well knew I couldn't.

I remember my boss chewing me out in public , and my horror as I stood there

and took it. I remember too, wishing I could strike back, but knowing I would

Ont. remember well being insulted to my face, and shriveling up inside,

wishing I could strike back but not being able to open my mouth.

I remember my horror and revulsion against Idi Amin, Saddam Hussien, and

Hitler. I really wished, somebody would shoot them. Are there really many of

you out there that always turned the other cheek IN YOUR THOUGHTS, and FEELING?

In all your lives you never imagine how good it would feel if someone

prevailed against those who hurt you and yours? That doesn't mean I take

pleasure in violence, but i do realize it is within me as in everyone else.

I do not knowingly inflict pain, or violence against anyone. I try hard not to

hurt peoples feelings, I have never knowingly hurt an animal, and I have not

even had a verbal battle with anyone in years. I realize that life would be

lovely if everyone could control themselves, but I realize wanton cruelty,

unfair aggression and abuse and the ensuing pain is part of life.The innocent

suffer, the guilty go free. That is usually the way on this earth. But my soul

in not " always quiet within me " , and nasty thought and feelings well up, and I

do have to stop and breathe deeply.

This world is not the best of all possible worlds, with a little pain and

suffering thrown in. It is a world of pain and suffering, and violence with a

little good thrown in. Reality is reality. Human beings do lash out and become

violent , nations do commit atrocities, and have since the beginning of human

life on earth.Violence ,Fear, anger, frustration and lack of control do

cause evil, and real evil is still around us. How can anyone think they are

immune? And is it always caused by others? We are never guilty of harboring

violent, nasty, spiteful thoughts? Even as children and through the early

years, you all were the model of peace, joy and gentleness. ????

I guess I should resign from this group, I do not belong in your company, you

see, because as hard as I try I am still subject to my emotions,they come

unbidden . Thankfully,I have the self control to keep them within, and enough

wisdom to realize, I would not improve the situation by reacting outwardly. I

know that beneath it all I am no different than the rest of struggling

humanity, and capable of anything if pushed far enough.. Old age does give one

a different perspective, and sometimes the love over rides everything...

but....

Perhaps I should not be honest here, few of us are.( You see I really don't

believe you all are always saintly) Meanwhile, back to my mystery stories.

Toni

Covert wrote:

> Thanks Toni and to the others who jumped in. I am going to put in some time

> this weekend re-reading the posts. I can't grasp everything said before

> going to work this morning. I want to go over it carefully and get back to

> the list.

>

> One clarifying comment, though, thinking about Alice's reply. I don't

> " enjoy " blood and guts at all. I accept it (maybe even love it as part of

> me), which is a lot different from enjoying it.

> Also, I am certainly not suggesting that others on the J-F have not known or

> felt violence and pain.

>

> What I object to (again for my self and people close to me, not in

> principle) is the notion that " violence and pain shouldn't be, " that the

> peaceful order is the " right way, " if we can just get rid of the " bad, wrong

> way. " When I see violence up close, I often - if not always - act to stop

> it, because I don't like it. I have stepped in serious harms way more than

> once to help someone or some animal being mistreated. It's not a should

> be/shouldn't be thing, it's just an adjustment of my immediate (that which

> can be influenced) environment to suit my personal preference.

>

> I did grasp, however, that some of you are seeing the war as your personal

> environment. I am enlightened about this point that I wasn't looking at.

> Thank you.

>

> Maybe I am sensing a personal rendition of the old Covey (sp?) model

> of concentric circles. It seems that many seem to be trying to influence the

> outer circle of concern, like some war someplace, rather than the smaller,

> closer-to-home circle that can be influenced. People moan about wars and

> watch their families break up at the same time. If you stick to what you can

> influence, your circle of influence will expand outward at least toward the

> collective circle of concern - like a war. Ali stuck to boxing, and later

> was able to influence world affairs. It couldn't have happened in reverse.

>

> Cov

>

> >

> -------------------------------------------------------------------->

>

>

[Guest guest]

Toni wrote:

> Cov, Wow I didn't realize the number of saints on Jung-Fire!

Um, Toni - *which* saints? I for one am not one of them! Just read the

archives

It seems apt that I am studying the Freud-Jung letters this week!!!

On the subject of saints, Jung mentioned in MDR feeling sorry for a

schoolfriend who had a supposedly saintly father, and said that he loved his

own father precisely *for* his weaknesses. So, take heart - we sinners are

in good company.

love, fa

[Guest guest]

<< N.B. I eat all my clients w/pickles n brown sugar!..........

GRRRRR!

by now u shld know me!: >>

The writers' conference I just attended was for those of us who love, read

and write sf/f (science Fiction/fantasy)... At the art show, I was tempted

to buy a plaque that said, with appropriate flaming dragon-type illustration:

Beware of Consorting with Dragons, for they love you... especiallty with

catsup.

heh heh

phoebe

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have read that it is estimated that 75% of all pregnancies that would

result in a child with DS, miscarry as a result. I think about that, and

then about the rareness of the MDS, and I really think that all of our

children are incredible miracles. If we had a 75% chance of losing the baby

and we did not, and then we had only so many chances of having a child with

DS, and far less of a chance to have a child with MDS. well my mind just can

hardly wrap itself around all those odds. I would like to say that the

spotting was nature trying to fix the " mistake " and the fact that everything

turned out OK, was God's way of saying, " No! I have not made a mistake

here! "

Barb Martz

Mom to Jonas (MDS) 2 & 7

Question

> I have been looking back over my pregnancy with ph, now 4 months. I

experienced spotting during the first 8 or so weeks of my pregnancy. It was

very scary at the time. I was having an ultrasound every week in those

early days to make sure everything was okay. The doctor was never able to

give any reason for the spotting. After reading back over the materials on

the website, Joe's MDS probably occurred very early in the 4 cell stage

because 3/4 of his cells have 47 chromosomes and 1/4 have 46. I was

wondering if this spotting could have been occurring at the same time this

" copying error " was occurring in the pregnancy. I'm not a medical person,

but my husband and I were just discussing it last night. I thought I'd ask

if any of the other MDS mothers experienced any spotting during the early

months of their pregnancy.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Wow! I never thought of the possibility of a twin being lost while the

other child was carried to term. You have been through quite a lot and I

shall be lifting you up in prayer this evening. God Bless you and your

family!

Barb Martz

Mom to Jonas 2 (MDS) & 7

Re: Question

> I never had any spotting in my pregnancy with Ariel but I have always had

two

> theories in mind when I let myself....First is that possibly I got

pregnant

> too soon after my first pregnancy (Ariels brothers-Jonathen and

were

> born in march of 93' and I had Ariel January of 94'-Unfortunitely they

came

> too early and are back in heaven) The other theory is that Ariel was a

twin

> and the other twin never developed. (I allow myself this one because my

> other 2 pregnancies were both spontaneous sets of twins-both identical) I

> brought this one up because in some cases of spotting women sometimes find

> out it was a lost twin.....

>

>

> Mom to Ariel 8 soon to be 9

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Aangel, thanks so much for the information. I will try to look up

information on this condition and ask if this is a possibility for Craig.

He has a tremendous amount of gas all day long for which there doesn't seem

to be any rhyme or reason to. As you stated, it can be unbelievable. They

have even brought my attention to it in school. (Like we don't know about

the problem!!) I have often wondered if it could be in some way related to

low muscle tone - your description of lack of waving motion fits the picture

in my head. Itr gives me a direction and something to pursue with a

physician. Again, thanks. Terry

Re: question

> My son has a bowel disease, but when he was hospitalized last

christmas

> for another reason... after an x-ray... the dr told us he had an ILEUS

(sp?)

> meaning, his bowel didn't have the normal waving motions, so things in the

> intestine kinda sat more still than they should, causing gasses to build

up.

> 's gas is the worst when he lays down to go to bed at night... WOW~

> didn't know some things were humanly possible!!

>

> I always meant to look up more about it....

>

> Angel

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sometimes this can be an early symptom of gall bladder problems.

Hope

> I am wondering if anyones child has had a problem with flatulence,

especially older children or teenagers. If so, have you discovered

the reason for it. I will be soon making an appointment with a

gastroenterologist for my son to see if they can discover a cause for

this. At 15 it can be an embarrassment. I want to ask the right

questions so am looking for any help if this has been a situation for

others. Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Terry,

I am new to MDS and to the list so I have no MDS related advice.

However, I once did the Atkins diet to loose weight. When you cut

out carbohydrates, the gas disapears.

Does your child have a lot of carbs in their diet?

Pull the carbs out for 3 days and see if it helps. I mean drastic

cut, just meat, fish, eggs and cheese for a few days. This

definately works if carbs is the problem.

Another possiblility is a slight lactose intolerance. Does the child

drink excessive amounts of milk? Ice Cream? Yougurt? Cheese? The

lactose causes fermentation in the intestine that leads to gas. Try

one of the lactose pills or pull dairy products for a few days.

If either of these are the problem, you can solve it in as quick as

3-4 days. The gastroenterologist will probably recomend the above

before they do any formal testing anyway.

A remote possiblility is a slight food alergy to something he is

eating, but you would most likely see more symptoms than just gas.

Valentino and

> I am wondering if anyones child has had a problem with

flatulence, especially older children or teenagers. If so, have

you discovered the reason for it. I will be soon making an

appointment with a gastroenterologist for my son to see if they can

discover a cause for this. At 15 it can be an embarrassment. I

want to ask the right questions so am looking for any help if this

has been a situation for others. Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Terry,

Tim is 17 and experiences the same thing. I have

always thought that this was just a way of him being

rude. I am interested in what you find out at the

doctor. Please keep me updated.

Kristy

--- Terry Van Evera wrote:

---------------------------------

I am wondering if anyones child has had a problem with

flatulence, especially older children or teenagers.

If so, have you discovered the reason for it. I will

be soon making an appointment with a

gastroenterologist for my son to see if they can

discover a cause for this. At 15 it can be an

embarrassment. I want to ask the right questions so

am looking for any help if this has been a situation

for others. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Kristy, I am so glad to know that Craig is not the only one to experience

this. He laughs about it, but sometimes I think its because it happens

whether he wants it to or not so he uses it to (what he thinks) is his

advantage. Its a tough question to ask for help with but I am glad I did.

Honestly, we sometimes think if we could harness him to the utility company

he could provide supplemental service! lol Terry

Re: question

> Terry,

> Tim is 17 and experiences the same thing. I have

> always thought that this was just a way of him being

> rude. I am interested in what you find out at the

> doctor. Please keep me updated.

> Kristy

>

> --- Terry Van Evera wrote:

>

> ---------------------------------

> I am wondering if anyones child has had a problem with

> flatulence, especially older children or teenagers.

> If so, have you discovered the reason for it. I will

> be soon making an appointment with a

> gastroenterologist for my son to see if they can

> discover a cause for this. At 15 it can be an

> embarrassment. I want to ask the right questions so

> am looking for any help if this has been a situation

> for others. Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

My 9 year old son was diagnosed with Celiac Disease (wheat allergy) a

year ago and since putting him on a gluten free diet, the smelly b.m.s and

gas have stopped.

Judi Girardi

>

>Reply-To: MosaicDS

>To: <MosaicDS >

>Subject: question

>Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:44:17 -0400

>

>I am wondering if anyones child has had a problem with flatulence,

>especially older children or teenagers. If so, have you discovered the

>reason for it. I will be soon making an appointment with a

>gastroenterologist for my son to see if they can discover a cause for this.

> At 15 it can be an embarrassment. I want to ask the right questions so

>am looking for any help if this has been a situation for others. Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

H1, Everyone. Hope all went well over the holidays. Anyho! What would

be some of the symptoms that I would look for from advanced 3rd stage

cirrhosis into 4th or end stage cirrhosis. Thanks JD