Blame and Compassion

[Guest guest]

Morning,

It's fairly normal that pain which is not addressed repeats. A person in a

" victim " mentality will continue to play out this role until the source of

the pain is addressed and the person decides to play neither victimizer or

victim - role reversal being very common in this case.

To illustrate how easily this is picked up, a study was done in prisons,

which had rapists look at films of women on a street and then several women

were scanned in. The rapist was asked to choose which woman he would rape.

The results were startingly. In 100% of the cases, the rapist chose the

woman who had already been raped. It is there in her body language.

The same happens with Cancer, it continues often to get addressed only to

resurface, unless some source issues get addressed. Now, frankly, if I were

that sick, I'd want to get healthy.

I live here in the Virginia countryside. Many of the farmers, including my

father, would say a horse or a calf born in winter will make the strongest

animal if they survive.

We get adversity to help us grow stronger and survive. Coddling is lovely,

we all love to be spoiled and pampered, myself included, unfortunately the

days where we had our own family diamond-cutter are past. I'm now just an

average single mother. Yet, I've alot more compassion, and a much greater

depth of understanding than I did ten years ago when the world was my oyster.

Had I had parents who demanded less of me, I'd be much worse off now.

Have you all heard of the thousand mile march? When the communists took over

in China, young American soldiers, old American nuns, and many others took

off across China for Europe.

Guess who lived?

The old nuns.

They were used to discipline, hard work and abstaining from indulgence. The

healthy young soldiers died.

Sometimes dying gracefully is a lesson we choose. I have no idea how much

grace I could muster in the face of death to be honest. I do know in

crossing the Abyss I truly thought I was dying, and I just gave it all to

God, and said " you sort it out, it's far beyond me. " Surrender can also be

an act of humility and service. Probably only a couple of you know this,

maybe none of you know this because I don't share pain well, has to do with

being Dutch I think. I did spend 30 days in bed last summer allergic to

antibiotics. I didn't have health insurance then. The surgeon, my

brother-in-law said " you'll go to bed or you'll die. " I continued to

meditate and Tree Travel. I thought, well if I die, I die with the energy of

Kabbalah.

I am, by the way, now in complete health, no need for mush *g*.

Roses do indeed have thorns,

Rainbo

[Guest guest]

Yes, if you are willing to commit to a long term project. I was talking mostly

about people in pain. Do they have the time and energy to go through the work

necessary? Once I have the wound(physical) it does me little good to

understand that if I were more conscious, if I were better, if I had done thus

and so, I wouldn't have this disease. I've got it now.

I'm not going to make general comments, and I was not speaking about

professional help for those who want it. A holistic healer would never have

said those harsh things I mentioned, off the cuff, so to speak.

Coming to consciousness is hard work, and often painful, and it certainly is a

long term process. When I have been in terrible pain, and I have, I do not

think very clearly. The last thing I need is psychoanalysis at that point.

What I want is sympathy, concern and love (as well as painkilling drugs.) I

imagine that would apply to psychic pain as well. One has to be receptive, and

when we hurt, its hard to delve deeply into oneself.

I agree completely that we must always be concerned about what would be the

most compassionate , and most loving thing to do.

Toni

Bonnie Calcagno wrote:

> Hi Toni,

> To me the truth will set you free. What if the person has more power

> over their physical condition than we think? Wouldn't it be compassionate

> to get them interested in the power of the unconscious to facilitate

> healing? Would it be compassionate not to mention it (to save them from

> self-blame because of a possible problem with a punishing superego)and to

> let their illness follow its course without intervening with all the

> consciousness we can bring to bear on the situation. Many years ago my

> mother died of cancer. At the time I thought her treatment was pathetic.

> It was strictly physical (chemotherapy, surgery). My thoughts then as now

> was it should have been treated holistically - through mind and body. If

> the person is prone to self-blame than that should be part of the treatment

> (punitive superego). I just think we are body/souls and to treat the body

> alone isn't always, if ever, the most compassionate treatment. If

> therapy/analysis can modify unconscious intrapsychic conflicts that may

> underlie symptom formation, can help the person live a healthier, less

> punishing life more open to their true wishes and impulses life, wouldn't

> helping them be aware of that be more compassionate, not less?

>

> Respectfully,

> Bonnie

>

> http://www.careerselfanalysis.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Toni,

I truly agree with you.

We know that " perfect love casts out fear. " It would seem to me that to love

the person who is ill - and love without judgement or trying to get them to

" be more conscious " - would bring about a lot more healing.

Especially since by being so loved, we are better able to love ourselves -

not blame ourselves for our disease. I would think that relaxing into that

love would bring about a lot more healing than participating in some heavy

analytic process.

Just my thoughts.

Sara in Georgia

Re: Blame and Compassion

> Yes, if you are willing to commit to a long term project. I was talking

mostly

> about people in pain. Do they have the time and energy to go through the

work

> necessary? Once I have the wound(physical) it does me little good to

> understand that if I were more conscious, if I were better, if I had done

thus

> and so, I wouldn't have this disease. I've got it now.

>

> I'm not going to make general comments, and I was not speaking about

> professional help for those who want it. A holistic healer would never

have

> said those harsh things I mentioned, off the cuff, so to speak.

> Coming to consciousness is hard work, and often painful, and it certainly

is a

> long term process. When I have been in terrible pain, and I have, I do not

> think very clearly. The last thing I need is psychoanalysis at that point.

> What I want is sympathy, concern and love (as well as painkilling drugs.)

I

> imagine that would apply to psychic pain as well. One has to be receptive,

and

> when we hurt, its hard to delve deeply into oneself.

>

> I agree completely that we must always be concerned about what would be

the

> most compassionate , and most loving thing to do.

> Toni

>

> Bonnie Calcagno wrote:

>

> > Hi Toni,

> > To me the truth will set you free. What if the person has more

power

> > over their physical condition than we think? Wouldn't it be

compassionate

> > to get them interested in the power of the unconscious to facilitate

> > healing? Would it be compassionate not to mention it (to save them from

> > self-blame because of a possible problem with a punishing superego)and

to

> > let their illness follow its course without intervening with all the

> > consciousness we can bring to bear on the situation. Many years ago my

> > mother died of cancer. At the time I thought her treatment was

pathetic.

> > It was strictly physical (chemotherapy, surgery). My thoughts then as

now

> > was it should have been treated holistically - through mind and body.

If

> > the person is prone to self-blame than that should be part of the

treatment

> > (punitive superego). I just think we are body/souls and to treat the

body

> > alone isn't always, if ever, the most compassionate treatment. If

> > therapy/analysis can modify unconscious intrapsychic conflicts that may

> > underlie symptom formation, can help the person live a healthier, less

> > punishing life more open to their true wishes and impulses life,

wouldn't

> > helping them be aware of that be more compassionate, not less?

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Bonnie

> >

> > http://www.careerselfanalysis.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Toni,

At the beginning of the discussion when you mentioned that the doctor

you went to told you many women with young children come to him what was in

the back of my mind was that these young women may have been too identified

with the collective, identified with their good wife, good girl personas.

Some might have believed that you should always love your children, be a

good wife, do, do, do for others and probably do very little for yourself

(selfish mothers take time away from their children to attend to their own

needs). Only by being sick would it be socially acceptable for them to get

the attention they needed and maybe the rest they needed,too. I thought

maybe analysis where they paid attention to their dreams could help them to

integrate a little of their shadow and they might find that sometimes they

hate their children, husband. Would like to get away from them to read a

book, take a walk, join an exercise class etc. I wondered, could it be if

they showed more compassion for themselves, could suffer the guilt involved

in putting themselves first at times, would they be healthier?

Best,

Bonnie

http://www.careerselfanalysis.com

[Guest guest]

I'm sure you are right. In the 60-'s when this all happened women in general

had not accepted the possibility of any other life. Putting yourself first in

those days would have been called " selfish " and frowned upon my their peers,

as you say..Guilt ran many of our lives since we could never " measure up " to

our ideals. Male doctors were not that conscious either of the real needs of

their female patients. It is now 40 years later and I still will not go to a

male doctor if I can help it. and absolutely would not have a male analyst.

Toni

Bonnie Calcagno wrote:

> Hi Toni,

> At the beginning of the discussion when you mentioned that the doctor

> you went to told you many women with young children come to him what was in

> the back of my mind was that these young women may have been too identified

> with the collective, identified with their good wife, good girl personas.

> Some might have believed that you should always love your children, be a

> good wife, do, do, do for others and probably do very little for yourself

> (selfish mothers take time away from their children to attend to their own

> needs). Only by being sick would it be socially acceptable for them to get

> the attention they needed and maybe the rest they needed,too. I thought

> maybe analysis where they paid attention to their dreams could help them to

> integrate a little of their shadow and they might find that sometimes they

> hate their children, husband. Would like to get away from them to read a

> book, take a walk, join an exercise class etc. I wondered, could it be if

> they showed more compassion for themselves, could suffer the guilt involved

> in putting themselves first at times, would they be healthier?

>

> Best,

> Bonnie

>

> http://www.careerselfanalysis.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< When I began this thread, I was speaking of the sick, and what to do about

it

right then and there. Therapy is a wonderful thing for people who have time

above all, and can be receptive. I was talking about the everyday

healer...layman with on the spot remarks. >>

Toni and all... when you first posted your remarks, I thought of running to

my mother with the skinned knee, the bloody finger. I mean it in a profound

way: the comfort, immediate attention to the pain, the compassion and the

caring healed. I don't mean to inflate/conflate nor to trivialize serious

physical problems with superficial woundings, but to comment on the healing

power of immediate comfort.

best,

phoebe

[Guest guest]

Maybe I can unscramble the question you have about therapists and compassion.

When I began this thread, I was speaking of the sick, and what to do about it

right then and there. Therapy is a wonderful thing for people who have time

above all, and can be receptive. I was talking about the everyday

healer...layman with on the spot remarks. We assumed, on this list that the

pain was psychic, and not life threatening. Therefore many suggested therapy. I

was talking about giving compassion to the suffering , in physical pain as

friends, family ,or acquaintance. It could translate to immediate help in

mental anguish, bereavement etc.

Any good therapist would have to have compassion. But all people needy at

sometimes in their lives cannot or do not go to therapists. They need the

assurance of those around them , so they do not feel guilty above and beyond

everything else.

Toni

Marilyn Geist wrote:

> Phoebe, yes, kind truth! A friend wrote the following recently about

> speaking the truth.

>

> > So we speak the essence of the truth without added assumptions. We

> > speak mostly of our love and offer our companionship and help. We're not

> > saying, " Hey, there's a problem here, you need to fix it. " We are saying,

> > " Something appears to be out of kilter, is there some way I can help? "

> > Speaking the truth in love isn't about accusations. It's about caring,

>

> In fact we don't ever know The Truth about someone else, and we need to be

> very careful and very kind in speaking our version of the truth.

>

> btw, I'm puzzled as to why compassion and therapy/analysis are seen by some

> here as opposites. My analyst is a tremendously compassionate and caring

> person, and the first person I called when I was in serious pain.

>

> Marilyn

>

>

>

>