Re: Magic Boxes

[Guest guest]

that was so lovely! thanks

am still trying to catch up - lost all files/addresses n fav places!

have read the posts ab sickness/pain/blame etc n since i am a case in point

feel like a good guinea pig.

i think it was Jung, but may be wrong, but there is a theory ab " creative

illness " n impact on transform of consciousness. Ignatius of loyola n sev

saints, tolstoy, etc. i think it's in Rob Henri's big volume on the history

of psychology...? idea being that such a crisis can result in a complete

reversal of lifestance. st paul fr saul....

anyway it suggests that it's not what happens to u but how u react to it!

when i suff my stroke, the results were so WEIRD n unreal, this constant

zapping - as in hitting yr funny bone - but up n down all rt side anytime i

move or am touched (thalamic syndrome or paresthesia) - i had to decide if it

had me or i had it. i dec i had it.

next, i tried to see wh karma might be involved - n prob my laziness in doing

my daily tib exercises - prob w/rebelling ag self-discipline! or it cld be

beyond my ken. who knows? anoth life?

then came suggest medic wh cld ease pain n sympt. i stalled 4 mos n finally

tried it w/result that i cldn't think straight. so chose buzz over fuzz, a

consc choice, so can have no rt to complain.

it IS a bummer for a writer to lose use of writ hand, but it keeops me from

logorrhea! n am trying to make ev word count.

it feels like wings clipped - wld be back on conf circuit w/my friends n

colleagues no doubt. so now i voyage inwardly n try to make ev day count for

someone - 1x1x1 - n find like rainbo, the clarity increases.

my heart is in this laterst book THE BEEJUM BOOK wh is Jung for kids, the kid

in grownups or gr-up in kids - deb cld expl better n i cld. it is a book i

think u will enjoy, pat autobiog, part fun, part wisdom fr other dimensions n

w/hilarious illust.

there is a lovely tibetan concept - to offer one's pain for the lessening of

pain for others, which gives pain a purpose.

i truly believe in redemption. i have learned ENORMOUSLY to honor the

millions of people of all ages, the world over, whose suffering is so much

greater than mine! something i cld only imagine intellectually before. my sit

is tailormade: i can walk - sort of= talk, think, n i don't buzz if i don't

move, so i can sleep! i can read etc. i am blessed n especially in all of u

who have kept me going for months, so that i wld rather read j-f than watch a

mov on tv. and i have help fr family n friends n am surr by the unseen

presence of my darling Walter.

so THANK U!!

now for Tiger Woods

love

The Auld Cailleach:}

[Guest guest]

Alice, So glad you wrote about your experience. I guess suffering and pain will

always be a mystery, and it does help to think it can be meaningful not always

just to the sufferer.

In earlier days, when I was in and out of hospitals for a while, I always told

myself, that G-d had said to me " lie down I want to talk to you for a while, and

I needed to get your attention " But, in great pain, I could not marshall my

thoughts enough to even do that consciously, but I felt He heard just the

same.Recovering from my heart attack

was a horse of a different color, and I am elsewhere on my path nowadays, but

the symbol of the vine with many branches still spoke to me. It took me a long

time, not sure it is over, to figure out who I am since then. I did get the

message , and am thankful that I have time to put it in action.

You are an inspiration , and give such a good example. Be well. Toni

Ps. Wasn't Tiger Woods something yesterday. Those last three holes were breath

taking.What concentration, and will ay work along with his other attributes.

IonaDove@... wrote:

> that was so lovely! thanks

>

> am still trying to catch up - lost all files/addresses n fav places!

>

> have read the posts ab sickness/pain/blame etc n since i am a case in point

> feel like a good guinea pig.

>

> i think it was Jung, but may be wrong, but there is a theory ab " creative

> illness " n impact on transform of consciousness. Ignatius of loyola n sev

> saints, tolstoy, etc. i think it's in Rob Henri's big volume on the history

> of psychology...? idea being that such a crisis can result in a complete

> reversal of lifestance. st paul fr saul....

>

> anyway it suggests that it's not what happens to u but how u react to it!

>

> when i suff my stroke, the results were so WEIRD n unreal, this constant

> zapping - as in hitting yr funny bone - but up n down all rt side anytime i

> move or am touched (thalamic syndrome or paresthesia) - i had to decide if it

> had me or i had it. i dec i had it.

>

> next, i tried to see wh karma might be involved - n prob my laziness in doing

> my daily tib exercises - prob w/rebelling ag self-discipline! or it cld be

> beyond my ken. who knows? anoth life?

>

> then came suggest medic wh cld ease pain n sympt. i stalled 4 mos n finally

> tried it w/result that i cldn't think straight. so chose buzz over fuzz, a

> consc choice, so can have no rt to complain.

>

> it IS a bummer for a writer to lose use of writ hand, but it keeops me from

> logorrhea! n am trying to make ev word count.

>

> it feels like wings clipped - wld be back on conf circuit w/my friends n

> colleagues no doubt. so now i voyage inwardly n try to make ev day count for

> someone - 1x1x1 - n find like rainbo, the clarity increases.

>

> my heart is in this laterst book THE BEEJUM BOOK wh is Jung for kids, the kid

> in grownups or gr-up in kids - deb cld expl better n i cld. it is a book i

> think u will enjoy, pat autobiog, part fun, part wisdom fr other dimensions n

> w/hilarious illust.

>

> there is a lovely tibetan concept - to offer one's pain for the lessening of

> pain for others, which gives pain a purpose.

>

> i truly believe in redemption. i have learned ENORMOUSLY to honor the

> millions of people of all ages, the world over, whose suffering is so much

> greater than mine! something i cld only imagine intellectually before. my sit

> is tailormade: i can walk - sort of= talk, think, n i don't buzz if i don't

> move, so i can sleep! i can read etc. i am blessed n especially in all of u

> who have kept me going for months, so that i wld rather read j-f than watch a

> mov on tv. and i have help fr family n friends n am surr by the unseen

> presence of my darling Walter.

>

> so THANK U!!

>

> now for Tiger Woods

>

> love

>

> The Auld Cailleach:}

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

All,

Sharing from someone else. All paths, like colors, like notes, are

interesting and beautiful. Some are preferred by some to others, that is the

beauty of freedom.

I've begun to think of psychological dynamics and spiritual principles as

draped in words like cloths of colors. If I explain to a child the theory of

gravity in Swahili or Arabic, or Aramaic or Chinese or English, it is still

the same principle. The theory of gravity has not changed, only one's

explanation and another's comprehension of the theory of gravity.

So it is with spiritual and psychological principles, religions and words

drape the principles, but the principles themselves are truths of great

beauty. It is my inability to grasp them in their fullness that creates

barriers between people, religions, societies and nations.

Below is a beautiful poem, an offering :-)

L*L*L

bo

Subject: Hymn of Guru Nanak

A Kirtan by Guru Nanak, translated by Premka Kaur.

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>382<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:

" The sky is the azure silver,

The sun and moon are Thy lamp,

The stars are Thy scattered pearls.

The sandal forests are Thy incense,

And the breeze is Thy fan.

These, along with the flowers of vegetation,

Are laid as offerings at Thy feet.

What other worship can be compared to

Nature's own Festival of Lights,

While the Divine Music resounds within.

Thousand are Thine eyes, yet Thou hast no eyes;

Thousand are Thy forms, and yet Thou hast no form;

Thousand are Thy lotus-feet, and yet Thou hast no feet;

Thousand are Thy noses to smell, yet Thou hast no nose;

I am enchanted with Thy play,

It is the Light which lives in every heart,

And Thy Light which illumines every soul.

It is only through the Guru's teachings

that the Light comes to be shown.

Whatever is pleasing to Thee, that is the True Worship.

My soul yearns for the honey of Thy lotus-feet.

Night and day I am athirst for Thee.

I am like the bird who cries: Peeoo, Peeoo,

Waiting to receive the drop of water

which is the nectar of your kindness,

So that I may live in the ecstacy of Thy Name. "

Om s'aantih: Peace! - J. K. Mohana Rao

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>382<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:

[Guest guest]

<< It's a mistake to think that " all roads lead to God. " Some, as in real

life,

lead to a dead end. Wisdom comes in being able to tell one from the other. >>

And wisdom is found -- where? On the path, I think. On the road, so to

speak. Who's to say? God might be at the end of every road, and some stop

short or get lost along the way.

I certainly agree that there is a certain trivialization, a lumping into a

mish-mash in contemporary society, but that cannot be laid only at the door

of America.

And, again, who is to say: out of that formless lump comes wisdom, love,

enchantment, willing hearts and hands to seek peace and kindness.

Do all paths lead to some numimous thing humans over all time in all places

have given a name that we translate now as God? How could they not? Is

there anything else?

lightly, lightly,

phoebe

[Guest guest]

Dear Bo,

That is, indeed, a beautiful and inspiring Kirtan by Guru Nanak, translated

by Premka Kaur. However, I must say that in the 30 years since I was

initiated in Hinduism, for example, I have never met a " cradle " Hindu (from

India) who wasn't horrified at the liberties Westerners take with their

religion. The same is true of my exchanges over the past 50 years with

" cradle " Buddhists (from Asia). Guru Nanak, as I'm sure you know, was the

founder of Sihkism -- and if you had ever met a cradle Sikh (from Pakistan

and/or India) you would discover that, despite the beauty of the Kirtan you

quote, they are extremely fundamentalist in their beliefs and closed to

other " interpretations " of them. The Bektashi Sufis of Turkey (the " whirling

Dervishes " ) considered the " most " mystical of all the Sufi orders are so

protective of their " transmission " that they practice what is called

" tekkiah " -- or spiritual dissembling -- in order to confuse and confound

outsiders. The same is true of the second-most mystical order of Sufism, the

Ismailis, who will not even permit anyone into their house of worship until

they have gone through many years of training and indoctrination in their

secret transmission, and finally receive traditional initiation into it.

It's only in our " everything's-the-same-as-everything-else " American

culture -- where a " table " is called a " chair " because you can sit on it --

that distinctions become so blurred that a thing continues being called what

it used to be long after it no longer is.

It's a mistake to think that " all roads lead to God. " Some, as in real life,

lead to a dead end. Wisdom comes in being able to tell one from the other.

Jung certainly thought so. Read Volume 11 of the collected works,

" Psychologiy and Religion: East and West, " in which he just about excoriates

such practices as Hinduism and Buddhism, calling them " regressive " as

compared to his own " progressive " notions of individuation. I'm quoting him

from memory, but not too inacurately, when he states that Eastern religions

create " children who want to run back to their 'Motherhold' hang onto her

knees " whereas his approach to God-realization, according to him, creates

" indivuduals who strike out on their own, separating themselves from the

'Mother " while remaining in communication with her. " During my own training

analysis I cannot tell you the trouble I got into because of my initiations

into Hinduism and Buddhism many years before from " mater " Jungians. And they

were, after many years of reflection and hard work, right.

Yakov Leib

[Guest guest]

Phoebe,

Well said. I agree.

Yakov Leib

Re: Magic Boxes

>

>

>

> << It's a mistake to think that " all roads lead to God. " Some, as in real

> life,

> lead to a dead end. Wisdom comes in being able to tell one from the other.

>>

>

> And wisdom is found -- where? On the path, I think. On the road, so to

> speak. Who's to say? God might be at the end of every road, and some

stop

> short or get lost along the way.

>

> I certainly agree that there is a certain trivialization, a lumping into a

> mish-mash in contemporary society, but that cannot be laid only at the

door

> of America.

>

> And, again, who is to say: out of that formless lump comes wisdom, love,

> enchantment, willing hearts and hands to seek peace and kindness.

>

> Do all paths lead to some numimous thing humans over all time in all

places

> have given a name that we translate now as God? How could they not? Is

> there anything else?

>

> lightly, lightly,

> phoebe

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yakov:

Your post took me by surprise as it synchs with some

recent decisions to turn away from a Hindu meditation

practice and move into Shambhala (Buddhist) meditation

practice.

I've practiced mantra meditation for 20 years and

arrived at a place of emptiness and stillness through

my Jungian Individuation work. So the mantra

meditation became a distraction, always pointing me on

the journey to the Deity(ies) and my devotion to the

Deity(ies).

Now I want to go out of myself, taking my stillness

with me into the world and FEEL something of my inner

spaciousness and curiosity towards those Things and

Beings with whom I live, breath and exist in THIS

world. Alice's evocation of her physical pain to ease

the suffering of all speaks to my new perspective

which is also for me, not intellectual.

This has all kinds of practical applications in the

world. In a recent dream I was asked to solve a

problem which meant getting on the outside of a box.

When i stood outside the box I saw angelo's

Vitruviam Man on all the sides. I began creatively

folding and refolding the sides until the problem

could be understood (by others) which meant only two

sides showing. So I began to differentiate between

what we create with our souls that is the human being

and our world reflected in balance and perfection and

what we really create - horrible, lifeless boxy

skyscrapers, subdivisions, malls etc.

We create a world from what we know. Thank goodness

there are those such as Jung who have gone before us

and people like Alice who are amongst us that are

willing to reflect on the ego and its aversions to

pain. Buddhism is beginning to make a lot of sense

and points towards a natural sanity for me and is not

at odds with Jung at all.

in the dance,

Frances

_______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear Frances,

Yes, that corresponds almost exactly to my own experience. Let me share

something with you that happened when I was in training at the L.A. Jung

Institute.

One of my training analysts was Japanese and, in addition to being a

Certified Jungian Analyst, was a 15th generation Zen Buddhist monk. At our

first meeting in his office, he began by saying, " You're crazy, of course. "

To which I answered, in all sincerity, " Oh, yes, I know. " He then said

something like, " I'm glad you do. Not everyone who is, is lucky enough to

know it. " He then asked if I had any questions, and the following exchange

took place:

" What is the Buddha? " I asked.

" The Buddha, " he answered, " is the stick you wipe your ass with. "

I'll never forget the moment.

Kol Tuv,

Yakov Leib

Re: Magic Boxes

> Yakov:

>

> Your post took me by surprise as it synchs with some

> recent decisions to turn away from a Hindu meditation

> practice and move into Shambhala (Buddhist) meditation

> practice.

>

> I've practiced mantra meditation for 20 years and

> arrived at a place of emptiness and stillness through

> my Jungian Individuation work. So the mantra

> meditation became a distraction, always pointing me on

> the journey to the Deity(ies) and my devotion to the

> Deity(ies).

>

> Now I want to go out of myself, taking my stillness

> with me into the world and FEEL something of my inner

> spaciousness and curiosity towards those Things and

> Beings with whom I live, breath and exist in THIS

> world. Alice's evocation of her physical pain to ease

> the suffering of all speaks to my new perspective

> which is also for me, not intellectual.

>

> This has all kinds of practical applications in the

> world. In a recent dream I was asked to solve a

> problem which meant getting on the outside of a box.

> When i stood outside the box I saw angelo's

> Vitruviam Man on all the sides. I began creatively

> folding and refolding the sides until the problem

> could be understood (by others) which meant only two

> sides showing. So I began to differentiate between

> what we create with our souls that is the human being

> and our world reflected in balance and perfection and

> what we really create - horrible, lifeless boxy

> skyscrapers, subdivisions, malls etc.

>

> We create a world from what we know. Thank goodness

> there are those such as Jung who have gone before us

> and people like Alice who are amongst us that are

> willing to reflect on the ego and its aversions to

> pain. Buddhism is beginning to make a lot of sense

> and points towards a natural sanity for me and is not

> at odds with Jung at all.

>

> in the dance,

>

> Frances

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

>