Re: CFS, imepedance cardiography original paper

[Guest guest]

Thanks. That paper differs from what Cheneys suggesting in important

ways, such as saying that neuro and endocrine factors could contribute

to the poor cardiac output (as opposed to cardiac muscle malfunction

alone)... and saying that cognitive symptoms might not be downstream

of poor perfusion (tho I agree with the paper that their conclusions

about cognition may well have been affected by subject use of SSRI and

atypical ADs and thyroid supplements).

Its very striking that poor heart output correlates so well not only

with disability (which might be expected) but also with

definitely-immunological symptoms like sore throat and lymph gland

swelling. In light of the general variability of CFIDS sx, I dont know

how to explain the precision of that correlation. Its a very

interesting new observation.

>

> For those who are exploring this in more depth, here is a link to the

> original paper referred to in the Cheney interview:

>

> http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Peckerman.pdf

[Guest guest]

As always, correlation does not equal causality. There well may be a multitude of other factors in a cascade of events which lead to this end point. If anyone has the fortitude it would pay to read the work of Harold D , a geographer, on the correlations of a number of problems with soil and water content of critical micro elements ( trace elements) which clearly affect immunity and importantly, cerebral function. www.hdfoster.com .

Regards

Windsor

[infections] CFS, imepedance cardiography original paper

For those who are exploring this in more depth, here is a link to the original paper referred to in the Cheney interview:http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Peckerman.pdf

[Guest guest]

, as this was simply a link so that people can read the

original rather than Cheney's memory and interpretation of said

paper, I'm wondering to what you are refering?

Did you read the paper and are responding to that (the correlations

therein)? Are you responding to the overview of Cheney's hypothesis

(his " exapansive " hypothesis based on this paper (and his personal

experience it seems))? It is unclear to me. Your statement stands

alone certainly (I suspect that many folks here know correlation

doesn't imply causation), but it seems like you are trying to say

more. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Also, I've now read the Cheney hypothesis and the original impedance

paper and will later post some problems/inconsistencies/areas of

concern based on the two.

> As always, correlation does not equal causality. There well may be

a multitude of other factors in a cascade of events which lead

to this end point. If anyone has the fortitude it would pay to read

the work of Harold D , a geographer, on the correlations of a

number of problems with soil and water content of critical micro

elements ( trace elements) which clearly affect immunity and

importantly, cerebral function. www.hdfoster.com .

> Regards

> Windsor

> [infections] CFS, imepedance

cardiography original paper

>

>

>

> For those who are exploring this in more depth, here is a link

to the

> original paper referred to in the Cheney interview:

>

> http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Peckerman.pdf

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

> Its very striking that poor heart output correlates so well not only with

> disability (which might be expected) but also with definitely-immunological

> symptoms like sore throat and lymph gland swelling. In light of the general

> variability of CFIDS sx, I dont know how to explain the precision of that

> correlation. Its a very interesing new observation.

Hi ,

Yeah, it's the correlation that fascinates me. I was hoping the correlation

would be only with fatigue but I think we'll have to wait and see.

On the experimental list there are a couple of people who have had the

impedance cardiography done by Cheney, and one of them says that fatigue is

not his worst symptom--it's shortness of breath.

The two people on that list who have posted their Q scores (does this have a

familiar, ominous ring?) are both lower than any of the severely ill people

Peckerman tested. So this bears out what Cheney was saying about Peckerman

(and Natelson) rejecting the sickest patients, because they were using

medications or supplements. I think Cheney was saying that the Peckerman

study patients were severely ill, but that Cheney's patients are more so.

3.5 - supine

4.5 - 30 degrees

4.5 - 70 degrees (This person is on a blood pressure medication.)

4.78 - supine

3.28 - 70 degrees

The tests were done on a tilt table. Numbers are liters per minute.

For comparison of numbers, here's what Cheney said: " In Peckerman's study,

the data of the disabled CFIDS patients reveals that when they are supine

their Q is 5 liters per minute. So lying down they can perfuse out to the

extremities, but admittedly not as much volume gets out there as would occur

at 7 (the Q of the controls and mild CFIDS patients when lying down)...

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

,

At the risk of sounding like a demagogue, let me say that it's known

that glutathione depletion suppresses cell-mediated immunity and

allows latent endogenous viruses to reactivate, as well as allowing

peroxynitrite to rise in muscle, cutting down the rate of production

of ATP. I think this good correlation results from the fact that

these features share a common cause, i.e. glutathione depletion.

Rich

> Its very striking that poor heart output correlates so well not only

> with disability (which might be expected) but also with

> definitely-immunological symptoms like sore throat and lymph gland

> swelling. In light of the general variability of CFIDS sx, I dont

know

> how to explain the precision of that correlation. Its a very

> interesting new observation.