Re: What Preservatives are Needed in the Following...

[Guest guest]

First - welcome to the list Sylviaevelyn (is that really one name?)

> The current soap forum I belong to

> is 98% opposed to anything not " all natural " so getting my questions

> answered is very difficult.

Oooo...I've been on forums like that - ick. I just love the " oh, no

one will ever sue ME - I've got nothing " mentality...or worse, " it'll

never happen with MY products, I keep a clean house " (as said by

someone who lets their cats run around in the kitchen while they make

lotion!) *grin* You've come to the right place to get straight

answers!

I don't want to make anyone sick, get

> sued or turn out a crappy product, so here is what I need to know.

> What preservatives are needed (if any) in the following items I am

> making currently (will phrenonip (sp??) work for most of these?):

>

> 1. MP soap with dried herbs (originally grown in my backyard and

then

> dried and crumbled)

>

> 2. MP soap with a tablespoon of honey added per pound? MP with

> oatmeal added?

>

Can you post the ingredients list of your MP, please? In theory, a

soap shouldn't require a preservative if the additions are minimal,

such as a tablespoon of well dried herbs per pound, but the experts

here may disagree. What's in your MP base may also make a difference.

I'll leave answering the other questions about preservatives to the

experts!

Jules in Vancouver

[Guest guest]

>

> Can you post the ingredients list of your MP, please? In theory, a

> soap shouldn't require a preservative if the additions are minimal,

> such as a tablespoon of well dried herbs per pound, but the experts

> here may disagree. What's in your MP base may also make a

difference.

>

>

> I'll leave answering the other questions about preservatives to the

> experts!

>

> Jules in Vancouver

Thanks Jules. I am currently using two different makers--phasing out

one. One which is near natural (and curiously enough has been a huge

disappointment, very drying and stinging on my face). It has

saponified vegetable oils, distilled water, aloe vera and an

emulsifier (if I recall I think prop. glyc.) The second which I love

has many more " chemicals " (LOL). These ingredients are:

Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate, sorbitol,

acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate. The Opaque also contains

titanium dioxide.

I add 1.5 teasp of cocoa butter, 1/2teasp of jojoba, 1/2 of olive or

canola and 1 teas of castor. Total oil additive per pound is 3.5

teaspoons. That's it. HTH

[Guest guest]

just as an aside - the second base isn't a true soap, so I do hope

you're using appropriate labelling!

the supplier for your first base should be hung out to dry for giving

you that pathetic excuse for an ingredients list! " saponified

vegetable oils " - saponified with what?? NaOH? TEA? sheesh...and

propylene glycol isn't an emulsifier - what an absurd thing for them

to say!

*sigh*

I'd suspect that the pH of the second base is low enough that

adding " buggie brunch " (herbs, honey, oatmeal and other bugmunchies)

to it might pose a greater risk than would be found in a CP soap.

Chemists?

Jules in Vancouver

>

> >

> > Can you post the ingredients list of your MP, please? In theory,

a

> > soap shouldn't require a preservative if the additions are

minimal,

> > such as a tablespoon of well dried herbs per pound, but the

experts

> > here may disagree. What's in your MP base may also make a

> difference.

> >

> >

> > I'll leave answering the other questions about preservatives to

the

> > experts!

> >

> > Jules in Vancouver

>

>

> Thanks Jules. I am currently using two different makers--phasing

out

> one. One which is near natural (and curiously enough has been a

huge

> disappointment, very drying and stinging on my face). It has

> saponified vegetable oils, distilled water, aloe vera and an

> emulsifier (if I recall I think prop. glyc.) The second which I

love

> has many more " chemicals " (LOL). These ingredients are:

>

> Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

> hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate,

sorbitol,

> acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate. The Opaque also contains

> titanium dioxide.

>

> I add 1.5 teasp of cocoa butter, 1/2teasp of jojoba, 1/2 of olive

or

> canola and 1 teas of castor. Total oil additive per pound is 3.5

> teaspoons. That's it. HTH

[Guest guest]

> just as an aside - the second base isn't a true soap, so I do hope

> you're using appropriate labelling!

Jules at the risk of sounding ignorant---what do you mean by the

following comments:

-- " it isn't a true soap " and

" I do hope you're using appropriate labelling " .

Why isn't it true soap and when I wrote the company I was told I

could simply put vegetable glycerin soap on the label, although I

have been listing all the

ingredients...

sylviaevelyn

>

[Guest guest]

On Tue

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

>

>The second which I love

>has many more " chemicals " (LOL). These ingredients are:

>

>Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

>hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate, sorbitol,

>acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate. The Opaque also contains

>titanium dioxide.

And that product fails to meet the FDA's definition of a soap.

For less " legalese " discussion, you may want to check out this webpage

on the FDA website:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-215.html

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

>

> >The second which I love

> >has many more " chemicals " (LOL). These ingredients are:

> >

> >Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

> >hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate,

sorbitol,

> >acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate. The Opaque also contains

> >titanium dioxide.

>

> And that product fails to meet the FDA's definition of a soap.

>

> For less " legalese " discussion, you may want to check out this

webpage

> on the FDA website:

> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-215.html

>

> Maurice

> ------------------------

> Maurice O. Hevey

> Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

> http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

Okay Maurice... Thanks but now I am infinitely more confused than

before asking any questions. So suffer with me just a bit more:

1. ... It's not soap because of ? You write: A " soap " is by the FDA

in 21CFR Sec. 701.20 Detergent substances, other than soap, intended

for use in cleansing

the body ..... A soap is detergent substances other than soap? What

does that mean?

2. Are you saying that I am making a cosmetic and not a soap and

therefore in my literature and sales I can no longer refer to my

product as soap?

3. Are you saying therefore that the company is illegally presenting

the item they are selling to me?

(Geez pass the execedrin and prozac---I have gone from trying to

figure out what if any preservatives I need to make a simple

cornstarch bath powder and a honey oatmeal bar of " soap " to blowing

up a year of work......................)BTW if anyone can answer

those questions I would be very appreciative...

PS Maurice, Excuse my sending this via the email first. The system is

somewhat cumbersome and I am just getting up to speed on how to

submit, reply, etc....

[Guest guest]

>Okay Maurice... Thanks but now I am infinitely more confused than

>before asking any questions. So suffer with me just a bit more:

>

>1. ... It's not soap because of ? You write: A " soap " is by the FDA

>in 21CFR Sec. 701.20 Detergent substances, other than soap, intended

>for use in cleansing

>the body ..... A soap is detergent substances other than soap? What

>does that mean?

" Detergent substances, other than soap, intended for use in cleansing

the body " is the title for this particular section of the CFR (Code of

Federal Regulations).

An example of a detergent substance that is intended for use in

cleaning the body would be

>Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

>hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate, sorbitol,

>acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate.

>2. Are you saying that I am making a cosmetic and not a soap and

>therefore in my literature and sales I can no longer refer to my

>product as soap?

If you sell the product that is represented by the ingredient list

provided above, then the answer is yes. This product would be

classified as a cosmetic, not soap. It contains soap in the form of

Sodium Cocoate, but the whole product would be classified as a cosmetic

and therefore subject the those FDA regulations that apply to

cosmetics.

>3. Are you saying therefore that the company is illegally presenting

>the item they are selling to me?

I have no idea what conversations and/or correspondence that you may

have had with this unidentified company. Being a cosmetic is easy.

Being a frog is harder. Smile.

>(Geez pass the execedrin and prozac---I have gone from trying to

>figure out what if any preservatives I need to make a simple

>cornstarch bath powder and a honey oatmeal bar of " soap " to blowing

>up a year of work......................)BTW if anyone can answer

>those questions I would be very appreciative...

What happened? I feel sure that everything isn't as bad as it may

seem.

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

>

> >Okay Maurice... Thanks but now I am infinitely more confused than

> >before asking any questions. So suffer with me just a bit more:

> >

> >1. ... It's not soap because of ? You write: A " soap " is by the

FDA

> >in 21CFR Sec. 701.20 Detergent substances, other than soap,

intended

> >for use in cleansing

> >the body ..... A soap is detergent substances other than soap?

What

> >does that mean?

>

> " Detergent substances, other than soap, intended for use in

cleansing

> the body " is the title for this particular section of the CFR (Code

of

> Federal Regulations).

>

> An example of a detergent substance that is intended for use in

> cleaning the body would be

>

> >Glycerin, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, cocamidopropyl

> >hydroxysultaine, propylene glycol USP, TEA lauryl sulfate,

sorbitol,

> >acetamide MEA, sodium laureth sulfate.

>

>

> >2. Are you saying that I am making a cosmetic and not a soap and

> >therefore in my literature and sales I can no longer refer to my

> >product as soap?

>

> If you sell the product that is represented by the ingredient list

> provided above, then the answer is yes. This product would be

> classified as a cosmetic, not soap. It contains soap in the form of

> Sodium Cocoate, but the whole product would be classified as a

cosmetic

> and therefore subject the those FDA regulations that apply to

> cosmetics.

>

> >3. Are you saying therefore that the company is illegally

presenting

> >the item they are selling to me?

>

> I have no idea what conversations and/or correspondence that you may

> have had with this unidentified company. Being a cosmetic is easy.

> Being a frog is harder. Smile.

>

> >(Geez pass the execedrin and prozac---I have gone from trying to

> >figure out what if any preservatives I need to make a simple

> >cornstarch bath powder and a honey oatmeal bar of " soap " to

blowing

> >up a year of work......................)BTW if anyone can answer

> >those questions I would be very appreciative...

>

> What happened? I feel sure that everything isn't as bad as it may

> seem.

>

> Maurice

>

>

> ------------------------

> Maurice O. Hevey

> Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

> http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Maurice...Hmm, what happened. Nothing happened except life ÿ

If you stay PRESENT in the NOW, you'll be able to enjoy the incrediable

adventure of life.

>Here goes Maurice. ÿI spent alot of time testing my soap ÿout on people, and

>the response has been overwhelmingly positive and revamping my additives a

>hundred times. I have a gazillion color labels etc using the word SOAP; I

>have a company name in the process of trademark with the word SOAP in it!!!! ÿ

>Geeez. ÿ

You can still call it soap. No problem.

>Yes, when I did not see the ingredients listed. I dutifully wrote the company

>for the ingredients and yes I was told--blah blah just put Pure Glycerin

>Soap--which from what you're telling me is absolute bull . The company

>(Soapcrafters in Utah) did send me that list which I have been including.....

Based on that ingredient declaration, the product is not pure glycerin

soap. Do " Soapcrafters in Utah " have a website? I looked but no luck.

>Anyway Mrs. Lincoln, other than that, How was the play?? ÿWhat do I call

>it--Dove Moisturizing Bar--and Why has it and my oil additive recipe cured my

>little's ones exczema? gotten rid of my neighbor's acne.... Maybe because

>it's not soap!!

Based on my personal experience, a true soap is quite alkaline and can

be very drying to the skin. I much prefer bars based on synthetic

detergents (a.k.a. syndets).

>PS: Clearly my Ivy League master degree is not worth a dime (LOL). Need to go

>to the attic and look for those chemistry books...

It may be hot in the antic. You should familiarize youself the the FDA

regulations that relate to cosmetics. A good place to start is:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-ind.html

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

At 03:58 PM 8/7/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>Based on that ingredient declaration, the product is not pure glycerin

>soap. Do " Soapcrafters in Utah " have a website? I looked but no luck.

www.soapcrafters.com