Guest guest Posted January 22, 2000 Report Share Posted January 22, 2000 Theorized? Theorized! Take a peek at http://www.folkarts.com/idef/model.htm . THEORY: It is a symptom because the toxins released by cell wall deficient bacteria [CWD] (mycoplasma or ?) triggers the immune system: RED ALERT, RED ALERT - infection! But because of their stealth abilities, NK cells are unable to eliminate them, this results in a stage 2 anti-infection protocol starting: Kill the infection by starving it of oxygen. How do you starve it: * start coagulation in the hope of building an envelope around the infection to keep it contained * slow down the flow of blood (so less oxygen per minute) - platelets etc * reduce the red blood cell count (less oxygen) * increase the pH of the blood (thus using the Bohr effect to reduce the rate of oxygen release) Thus it is a symptom -- unfortunately some CWD like low oxygen levels... and we start an endless cascade into CFS... and it then become a catalyst of the cascade... What I am trying to confirm (and it may never have been studied) is whether the 2nd level of defense is the 'starvation of infection' routine described above... all theory Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: mcamp10139@... This has probably been mentioned before, but has anyone theorized that hypercoagulation is a symptom of CFS and not a cause of CFS or ANY symptoms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2000 Report Share Posted January 22, 2000 This has probably been mentioned before, but has anyone theorized that hypercoagulation is a symptom of CFS and not a cause of CFS or ANY symptoms? [Patti:] Berg himself (Hemex) says that the hypercoag - or as he calls it - immune cascade - is triggered by something else, some pathogen or maybe some other stressor. I think everyone who is following the hypercoag thing says it is a symptom, but once in place, is self-sustaining and hinders or prevents return to health. The question is, why do some people get better and others don't. Berg's theory is that those that don't get better have the hypercoag problem (or at least have it to a greater extent) in addition to whatever caused the fatigue in the first place. He has found that those that are the sickest and most resistant to treatment have the thickest blood. He is finding that about 75% of those in a hypercoag state have one or more genetic defects affecting coagulation. One person he tested had seven different mutations that promoted sticky blood. This person is not responding all that well to heparin as the problem is not only getting the blood thinner, but dissolving the fibrin that has already deposited on the vessel walls, and she aparently doesn't have the ability to dissolve fibrin. As you know, just because you have a gene doesn't mean you express it. The hypercoag mutations can be latent, waiting for a triggering event. If hypercoagulation caused viruses to be 'stuck' in my arteries [Patti:] From what I've read its just the opposite. Some viruses can " attract " fibrin in order to hide from the immune system similar to the way cancer cells attract fibrin to " wall " themselves away from blood flow because they need a low oxygen environment in order to thrive. low sed rates are very common in the healthy population [Patti:] Low sed rates are not diagnostic. Its just that people want to know if there's a cheaper test that might indicate they have this problem before ordering the ISAC and they've noticed the sed rate thing as an anecdote. As I said, I don't have a low sed rate and I have a hypercoag state. and I think it is normal for everyone to be somewhere between hypercoagulation and being a hemopheliac. [Patti:] Uh... duh! Just like there is normal variation on the CMI/HMI spectrum, its just when you get too close to the extreme ends that you have problems. If you have too much CMI you can get autoimmune problems, and if you are too far on the HMI side you get MCS, allergies, etc. You want to be somewhere in the middle most of the time. If you are too hypercoag, you are very prone to strokes (and miscarriages for females), but you obviously don't want your blood to be too thin either. [Patti:] With your history you probably don't have the hypercoag problem. Not every PWC does. I don't believe all CFS is the same disease. Those with hypercoag are probably a subset of this complex disease. You are probably in a different subset (another reason why some have positive reactions to certain drugs and supplements while others dont). Now that I'm looking back on all this I think I've always had somewhat sticky blood. As I've mentioned many times before, even when I was very involved in mountain climbing (and in very excellent shape) I still had a terrible problem with mountain sickness (AMS) (I loved being at altitude so much I just gritted my teeth and did it anyway) which is caused by lack of oxygen (hypercoag robs the tissues of oxygen). The sicker I got with CFS, the lower altitude I got altitude sickness at. I used to get AMS at exactly 13,500 ft. When I had to reduce my work hours to 30/week I got AMS at 11,000 ft. Now I get AMS at 8,000 ft. Back in the 80s when I was climbing in Nepal just about EVERYTHING is above 13,000 ft and I progressed to Cerebral edema. I used to get Berg says that now some mountain climbers are using heparin to avoid mountain sickness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2000 Report Share Posted January 23, 2000 In a message dated 1/22/00 10:47:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcamp10139@... writes: << hypercoagulation is a symptom of CFS and not a cause of CFS or ANY symptoms? >> Mike, that is exactly the theory of Berg of Hemex. It will also be a symptom of other diseases and already is a symptom of both FMS and CFS which he does not consider the same entity. He never mentioned a cause, although, in private conversations, he does feel that most should look more closely at HHV-6A as the cause. Gail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 > Sorry, I'm slow. Exactly what needs to be tested to find out if you have > hypercoagulation? > I believe that Dr. Cheney first tests fibrinogen. If you are over 310 he then recommends that you take the ISAC panel from Hemex, www.hemex.com. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 See http://home.att.net/~kjo/theories.htm, section 6 for one set of tests. Also go to http://www.cfsyndrome.com/drandrew.html and look for ISAC.. it gives some good information... The tests are: FIB= fibrinogen F1+2= prothrombin fragment 1+2 T/AT= thrombin/antithrombin fragment SFM=soluble fibrin monomer PA+CD62P=platelet activation scores > > Sorry, I'm slow. Exactly what needs to be tested to find out if you have hypercoagulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Hi, I was on heparin for about eight months and it helped. However, my MD switched me to Nattokinase and it helped just as much and it safer. There is some chance of a toxic shock like reaction with heparin and not with natto. I did get such a reaction. You can google Nattokinase, I think my brand is from Allergy Group, and read about it. athan in Seattle has written about natto and how he prefers it to heparin. Natto is very constipating, however, so you need to take sorbitol or some other laxative type herb. Cactus You can read out the two > I understand that one needs to be on Heparin for 6 months and many don't > see/feel results for awhile.... > > I'm about to try it - any success stories out there???? - my worse > symptom is my lack of memory and thought processes! > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Anyone get tested for this, have it, but then go on for the genetic testing to see if there is a cause? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 How much natto do you take? Phil [ ] Re: Hypercoagulation Hi, I was on heparin for about eight months and it helped. However, my MD switched me to Nattokinase and it helped just as much and it safer. There is some chance of a toxic shock like reaction with heparin and not with natto. I did get such a reaction. You can google Nattokinase, I think my brand is from Allergy Group, and read about it. athan in Seattle has written about natto and how he prefers it to heparin. Natto is very constipating, however, so you need to take sorbitol or some other laxative type herb. Cactus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 --- In , " REMOCLIHP " <REMOCLIHP@f...> wrot Hi, 3 to 5 a day. Also, it is Allergy Research Group. It does do what they say. My MD has a Bradford Microscope so we could see the fibrogin clearing and the stuck together red cells (rouleu) separating and floating freely. Cactus > How much natto do you take? > > Phil > [ ] Re: Hypercoagulation > > > > Hi, > > I was on heparin for about eight months and it helped. However, my > MD switched me to Nattokinase and it helped just as much and it > safer. There is some chance of a toxic shock like reaction with > heparin and not with natto. I did get such a reaction. You can > google Nattokinase, I think my brand is from Allergy Group, and read > about it. athan in Seattle has written about natto and > how he prefers it to heparin. Natto is very constipating, however, > so you need to take sorbitol or some other laxative type herb. > Cactus > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 .. I thought someone posted on here that there is a hypercoagulation group. Anyone know if that is the case? I tried looking and could not find it. I belong to leidenfactorVsupport its for Factor V leiden, just one hypercoag problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 I know a physician who used to regularly check his blood viscosity because he has ME (CFS) and was influenced by Berg. I can't recall the name of the test, but my husband thinks this dr was monitoring fibrinogen. In any case, what he found from frequent tests was that the levels fluctuated a lot day to day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Very interesting information below. I do have hypercoagulation and my INR is 1.0 very low that must mean according to DR's MacMahon and Gleuck that there is no way the antibiotics are going to reach the multiple infections. Carol Penny said:"According to Dr.s MacMahon, and Gleuck, etc., IF you've got aclotting disorder, AND you've got an INR below 3.5, ain't no amountof abx going to cure you."Penny: So why is that then? Cuz the abx can't get where you want it?Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Penny, I'm not familiar with INR. Could you explain why the ABX won't cure you? Does the INR have anything to do with ISAC and fibrin build up? Is it inflammation? I'm lost. > Very interesting information below. I do have hypercoagulation and my INR is > 1.0 very low that must mean according to DR's MacMahon and Gleuck that there > is no way the antibiotics are going to reach the multiple infections. Carol > > > Penny said: > " According to Dr.s MacMahon, and Gleuck, etc., IF you've got a > clotting disorder, AND you've got an INR below 3.5, ain't no amount > of abx going to cure you. " > > Penny: > So why is that then? Cuz the abx can't get where you want it? > Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Jelly, if I may stick my nose in here. Here is a definition of an INR. It has more to do with platelets and clotting time opposed to fibrin build up. INR: International normalized ratio, a system established by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the International Committee on Thrombosis and Hemostasis for reporting the results of blood coagulation (clotting) tests. All results are standardized using the international sensitivity index for the particular thromboplastin reagent and instrument combination utilized to perform the test. For example, a person taking the anticoagulant ( " blood thinner " ) warfarin (brand name: Coumadin) might optimally maintain a prothrombin time (a " pro time " or PT) of 2 to 3 INR. No matter what laboratory checks the prothrombin time, the result should be the same even if different thromboplastins and instruments are used. This international standardization permits the patient on warfarin to travel and still obtain comparable test results. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9185 Best, > > Very interesting information below. I do have hypercoagulation and > my INR is > > 1.0 very low that must mean according to DR's MacMahon and Gleuck > that there > > is no way the antibiotics are going to reach the multiple > infections. Carol > > > > > > Penny said: > > " According to Dr.s MacMahon, and Gleuck, etc., IF you've got a > > clotting disorder, AND you've got an INR below 3.5, ain't no amount > > of abx going to cure you. " > > > > Penny: > > So why is that then? Cuz the abx can't get where you want it? > > Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Hi, Janet. Some people have received benefit from taking nattokinase or even lumbrokinase, which is more potent. I do want to repeat a caution from Berg of Hemex lab, though, who specializes in hypercoagulation. He says that it's very important to combat the viruses or bacteria that are present simultaneously with using these things. Otherwise, when the fibrin is broken up, the bugs can thrive, and in the end, the hypercoagulation can actually end up being worse. I've heard him present this in a couple of talks in the past. I think he is in favor of using transfer factor if viruses are involved, as Dr. Joe Brewer of Kansas City has reported on. Rich > > HI All, > > Does anyone know of a supplement that works against > hypercoagulation??? > > Thank you in advance, > > Janet > in San Diego > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 " HI All, Does anyone know of a supplement that works against hypercoagulation??? Thank you in advance, Janet in San Diego " ****Once you improve your health ie reduce metals, kill infection, support adrenals, improve digestion and raise anioxidants - the health of your blood will improve. Regards CS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Hi Kathy, Thank you so much for the encouragement. This illiness has taken enough from my life and I am not going to take it anymore!!! I will be in here pitching until I can exercise!!! So of course, I have another question. What is Boulouke Lumbrokinase??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...> wrote: Oh boy Janet- Talk about a huge subject. My doc ran an Hemex ISAC is going in the direction of Lumbrokinase for my hyercoag. Althought there are others in the marketplace, he wants me to do the Boulouke Lumbrokinase. Here's a wealth of info on the subject: http://www.hemex.com/ Kathy PS: BTW, for being the " new kid " , you are doing an great job at getting out there and digging up resources, info, answers, options, etc. Way to go!! -------------------------- HI All, Does anyone know of a supplement that works against hypercoagulation??? Thank you in advance, Janet in San Diego --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Janet, There are a number of supplements that have some ability to reduce coagualtion...Aspirin, Vitamin E, fish oil, bromelain, garlic, ginkgo, nattokinase, and others. I have used various combinations and tho some use different mechanisms I have found them effective. The foremost problem is in monitoring the thinning effect. I am unaware of any standardized test to evaluate to monitor this treatment. I know I'm pushing the limits when I start to bruise easily. All have multiple benefits...beyond blood thinning, eg. bromelain and natto are proteolytic enzymes that combat placque. Ginkgo works by making the platelets more " slippery " . A Google search of these terms will give you much more detail. Mel Hypercoagulation HI All, Does anyone know of a supplement that works against hypercoagulation??? Thank you in advance, Janet in San Diego This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Hi Janet- Lumbrokinase is earthworm stuff...how's that for a technical answer?..lol.. This takes you to good info, including comparisons to Nattokinase. http://www.canadarna.com/b_buluokeintro.htm There are cheaper versions, Allergy Research has one: http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/discuss/LumbrokinasePDFProductSheet\ 040105.pdf In case that link does not work, try this and scroll down to Lumbrokinase: http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/category/specprod.htm My doc is a big fan of ARG and in spite of that, he still likes the Bolouke better. Warning though...it's not cheap. Keep on pitchin! Kathy --------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Kathy, Thank you so much for the encouragement. This illiness has taken enough from my life and I am not going to take it anymore!!! I will be in here pitching until I can exercise!!! So of course, I have another question. What is Boulouke Lumbrokinase??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...> wrote: Oh boy Janet- Talk about a huge subject. My doc ran an Hemex ISAC is going in the direction of Lumbrokinase for my hyercoag. Althought there are others in the marketplace, he wants me to do the Boulouke Lumbrokinase. Here's a wealth of info on the subject: http://www.hemex.com/ Kathy PS: BTW, for being the " new kid " , you are doing an great job at getting out there and digging up resources, info, answers, options, etc. Way to go!! -------------------------- HI All, Does anyone know of a supplement that works against hypercoagulation??? Thank you in advance, Janet in San Diego --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new .com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Thank you for your help, Kathy. I have alot to run by my doc next time. I am going to call Hemex. Janet in San Diego " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...> wrote: Hi Janet- Lumbrokinase is earthworm stuff...how's that for a technical answer?..lol.. This takes you to good info, including comparisons to Nattokinase. http://www.canadarna.com/b_buluokeintro.htm There are cheaper versions, Allergy Research has one: http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/discuss/LumbrokinasePDFProductSheet\ 040105.pdf In case that link does not work, try this and scroll down to Lumbrokinase: http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/category/specprod.htm My doc is a big fan of ARG and in spite of that, he still likes the Bolouke better. Warning though...it's not cheap. Keep on pitchin! Kathy --------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Kathy, Thank you so much for the encouragement. This illiness has taken enough from my life and I am not going to take it anymore!!! I will be in here pitching until I can exercise!!! So of course, I have another question. What is Boulouke Lumbrokinase??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...> wrote: Oh boy Janet- Talk about a huge subject. My doc ran an Hemex ISAC is going in the direction of Lumbrokinase for my hyercoag. Althought there are others in the marketplace, he wants me to do the Boulouke Lumbrokinase. Here's a wealth of info on the subject: http://www.hemex.com/ Kathy PS: BTW, for being the " new kid " , you are doing an great job at getting out there and digging up resources, info, answers, options, etc. Way to go!! -------------------------- HI All, Does anyone know of a supplement that works against hypercoagulation??? Thank you in advance, Janet in San Diego --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new .com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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