Re: Th1/Th2

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/14/00 12:31:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

SkariPM@... writes:

<<

[Patti:] This is not me either, yet I am firmly in the hyperactive Th2

camp. Not everyone displays the same symptoms. I think that some of us

have more " internal " allergy symptoms (like brain swelling) and others have

more " external " symptoms like hay fever and runny nose. When someone has a

nearly nonexistant Th1 (this is called a state of ANERGY) the symptomology

changes. In a state of ANERGY the body cannot even make a reaction to

contact poisons like poison ivy.

[Patti:] The " clues " I followed to intuit that I was Th2 dominant and that I

was in ANERGY were:

- stopped having colds/flu/bronochitis/etc

- absolutely NO reaction to poison ivy or poison oak at all (symptom of

anergy - I don't know if this is related to no reaction to bee stings or

not)

- Absolutely NO reaction to TB test after I had been around people with TB

(doc said test would always show positive if you have been exposed to TB -

and I had definitely been exposed) >>

Patti, I want to thank you very much for helping me shed some darn light on

this Th1 and Th2 thing which I have been trying to understand for

months(brain fog). I am just so much more confused now though because I

researched it last night and found several sites that said people who are Th2

dominant react to everything allergy wise. This is not me nor is it you from

what you wrote in your email. It said that people who are Th2 dominant react

to things like pollen and I think it even mentioned poison ivy now that I

think of it-(I am going to try to find the site and post it) and it said that

people who are TH2 dominant react to these things they get an immediate

reaction of runny nose, swollen eyes, etc. This is so not me. It used to be

but no anymore. So you can see why I am so confused about this. I just

think that if I can finally figure out what I really am Th1 dominant or Th2

dominant then I can start to treat myself better. In doing research it said

that Lyme people are Th1 dominant and that people with RA are TH1 dominant

and that people with Lupus are TH2 dominant,

[Guest guest]

Also, Patti I did the DNCB as well and got nothing at the strongest

dose...interesting...you and I are on the same boat here. karen

[Guest guest]

From: lbinujrsy@... [mailto:lbinujrsy@...]

Well, I pretty much give up! I have been trying most of the day to find out

(online) which catagory I fall under TH1 or Th2. Since I have cfids I just

assumed I fall under the catagory of being to much on the TH2 side. But

then

I ran across something that said people who are more on the Th2 side have

severe allergies, runny nose all the time, etc......THIS IS NOT ME!

[Patti:] This is not me either, yet I am firmly in the hyperactive Th2

camp. Not everyone displays the same symptoms. I think that some of us

have more " internal " allergy symptoms (like brain swelling) and others have

more " external " symptoms like hay fever and runny nose. When someone has a

nearly nonexistant Th1 (this is called a state of ANERGY) the symptomology

changes. In a state of ANERGY the body cannot even make a reaction to

contact poisons like poison ivy.

[Patti:] The " clues " I followed to intuit that I was Th2 dominant and that I

was in ANERGY were:

- stopped having colds/flu/bronochitis/etc

- absolutely NO reaction to poison ivy or poison oak at all (symptom of

anergy - I don't know if this is related to no reaction to bee stings or

not)

- Absolutely NO reaction to TB test after I had been around people with TB

(doc said test would always show positive if you have been exposed to TB -

and I had definitely been exposed)

[Patti:] To follow up on these " clues " I asked doc to run NK *function* test

(count was OK). My NK function was only 7 - which indicates state of

ANERGY. I also used DNCB as outlined on Mark Konlee's site (

www.keephope.net <http://www.keephope.net> ) and got no reaction to

strongest solution, which also indicates ANERGY and severe lack of Th1

response (and by default, hyperactivity of Th2)

[Patti:] Symptoms of some diseases are completely different depending on

what side of Th1/Th2 balance you are on. See -

http://www.iol.ie/~alank/CROHNS <http://www.iol.ie/~alank/CROHNS>

[Patti:] Although this site is about Chrohn's, you can see the clear

connection between what is observed in the Th1/Th2 spectrum in TB and what

we might be seeing in CFS (also considering that mycobacteria may also be

significant factor in CFS). People with TB who have strong Th1 recover,

those that don't, don't recover. I suspect the same may be true for CFS,

those with strong Th1 can eventually recover....etc.

Patti

--

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/14/00 8:01:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

SkariPM@... writes:

<<

[Patti:] If you're not reacting to 10% DNCB you are Th2 dominant! I think

it has indications for treatment. For example, I've always heard that

Echinacea is so good for immune system, but it seemed to make me WORSE.

Turns out echinacea mostly boosts Th2 side of immune system. No wonder it

made me worse. Those that are Th2 dominant can concentrate on things that

specifically boost Th1 like b 1,3 glucan.

>>

Hi again Patti, yest the same thing for Echinacia made me so much worse. I

also have chem sensitivities as well. I just the complication lies with us

in this....I read an article saying that Th2 dominant people have really bad

allergies and react to everything and you are saying that that reaction is

usually seen in Th1 dominant people. This is the only confusion.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/14/00 8:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

SkariPM@... writes:

<< even most of his AIDS patients got a reaction to 10%. I now react to

weakest solution (.02%). Took some time, and lots of work. Used Naltrexone

(as described by Konlee) and b 1,3 glucan as major contributors (IP6 was of

no benefit that I could see). >>

What brand b 1,3 glucan do you use?

[Guest guest]

From: lbinujrsy@... [mailto:lbinujrsy@...]

Also, Patti I did the DNCB as well and got nothing at the strongest

dose...interesting...you and I are on the same boat here. karen

[Patti:] If you don't react to strongest DNCB solution, you are in a state

of Anergy (see Konlee's site for more info on that). When I talked to Dr.

Bihari, he was shocked that I didn't get any reaction to 10% DNCB. He said

even most of his AIDS patients got a reaction to 10%. I now react to

weakest solution (.02%). Took some time, and lots of work. Used Naltrexone

(as described by Konlee) and b 1,3 glucan as major contributors (IP6 was of

no benefit that I could see).

[Guest guest]

From: lbinujrsy@... [mailto:lbinujrsy@...]

Patti, I want to thank you very much for helping me shed some darn light on

this Th1 and Th2 thing which I have been trying to understand for

months(brain fog).

[Patti:] Don't be so hard on yourself. Most docs don't understand it

either!

I am just so much more confused now though because I

researched it last night and found several sites that said people who are

Th2

dominant react to everything allergy wise. This is not me nor is it you

from

what you wrote in your email. It said that people who are Th2 dominant

react

to things like pollen and I think it even mentioned poison ivy now that I

think of it-(I am going to try to find the site and post it) and it said

that

people who are TH2 dominant react to these things they get an immediate

reaction of runny nose, swollen eyes, etc. This is so not me. It used to

be

but no anymore. So you can see why I am so confused about this.

[Patti:] I " react " to lots of things (have MCS) but have no " standand "

allergies - as defined by standard scratch tests. I have a friend with MS

and everything I read says that MSers are Th1 dominant, but she seem to me

to be Th2 dominant. I read one journal article saying that this topic is

compicated by the fact that you can be Th1 dominant in one part of your body

and Th2 dominant in another (at least this is what they found in MSers - it

sais they were Th1 dominant in their nerve cells, but Th2 dominant

everywhere else). I only saw one paper on this, and don't know if this is

true or not, but this could make treatment much more complicated.

I just

think that if I can finally figure out what I really am Th1 dominant or Th2

dominant then I can start to treat myself better. In doing research it said

that Lyme people are Th1 dominant and that people with RA are TH1 dominant

and that people with Lupus are TH2 dominant,

[Patti:] If you're not reacting to 10% DNCB you are Th2 dominant! I think

it has indications for treatment. For example, I've always heard that

Echinacea is so good for immune system, but it seemed to make me WORSE.

Turns out echinacea mostly boosts Th2 side of immune system. No wonder it

made me worse. Those that are Th2 dominant can concentrate on things that

specifically boost Th1 like b 1,3 glucan.

Patti

--

[Guest guest]

>I ran across something that said people who are more on the Th2 side have

>severe allergies, runny nose all the time, etc......THIS IS NOT ME!

>

>[Patti:] This is not me either, yet I am firmly in the hyperactive Th2

>camp. Not everyone displays the same symptoms. I think that some of us

>have more " internal " allergy symptoms (like brain swelling) and others have

>more " external " symptoms like hay fever and runny nose.

Hi, I suspected that something shifted with the onset of CFS. I used to have

runing nose and eyes, typical hay fever, allergic to pollen. With CFS these

symptoms almost don't bother me but I have more swelling - inside mouth,

eyes, lips - and mainly react to food (GI symptoms). As for the brain

swelling - can this be proved somehow?

Stania

[Guest guest]

From: stanislava.muzikova@... [mailto:stanislava.muzikova@...]

Hi, I suspected that something shifted with the onset of CFS. I used to have

runing nose and eyes, typical hay fever, allergic to pollen. With CFS these

symptoms almost don't bother me but I have more swelling - inside mouth,

eyes, lips - and mainly react to food (GI symptoms).

[Patti: ] ditto.

As for the brain

swelling - can this be proved somehow?

[Patti: ] Yes, but we are unlikely to be able to get these tests. I read

some papers about brain swelling in PWCs. I forgot which tests measure this

(I think chiari tests, and maybe spect?) I'm not positive if I have brain

swelling or not (no tests), but it sure FEELS like it. FYI - the HBOT

treatments I tried recently have basically stopped that " brain swelling "

feeling that I usually have. May come back, but at least I've gone about a

month without this symptom.

Patti

--

[Guest guest]

I was going to mention this because I started using it a couple weeks ago.

It is called Jarrow Th1 Probiotics. I can't remember where I bought it

though, but I have it at work. It was hard to find. I am doing so much

better from the heparin/antibiotics that I'm not sure how it's doing but I

needed probiotics anyway so I figured it couldn't hurt. I have found

everything at Keep Hope Alove (the site below) to be incredible useful.

Vinegar for example. Amazing stuff.

Cindi

SF <soulwoman1@...>

12/04/00 06:13 PM

Please respond to

egroups

cc:

Subject: TH1/TH2

Last year I read at Mark Konlee's web site

(http://www.execpc.com/~keephope/keephope.html)

information about TH1 and TH2. I remember Mark had

talked to the vitamin company Jarrow to create a

product that would work on TH1 or TH2. I can't

remember, but was hoping someone else also read this

info and can share it with the group. I will try and

locate it on his web site and post the info if I can

find it.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/27/2000 5:22:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,

nmcfadden@... writes:

<< f you catch colds you are probably not balanced with th1/th2.

people who are th2 dominant usually don't catch colds because

their antibody/reactions to outside world are extreme, while

their th1, which fights yeast, viruses and intracellular bacteria

are low. >>

, I have active hhv6 (Wisconsin lab) and good response to kutapressin

and immunepro/imuplus. Intially, I had systemic candidiasis. This is all

suggestive of th2 dominance, but I also catch colds at the drop of a hat!

[Guest guest]

, thanks for the explaination. I wish I could print out the chart my

doctor made for me - even so, you made it alot clearer. I think I am very

TH2 dominant, never catch colds anymore.

Question to you and all - what about constant hives (controlled by doxepin)?

Would that indicate one or the other? And one more question - does a

product like Transfer Factor, then, proport to *balance* TH1 and TH2? -

Meaning, it does not push one way or the other specifically, but strives to

balance? Can that be? Thanks -

> asked how *would* one know if one is more Th1

> instead of TH2? Would getting a cold be a good sign?

>

> ====

> if you catch colds you are probably not balanced with th1/th2.

>

> people who are th2 dominant usually don't catch colds because

> their antibody/reactions to outside world are extreme, while

> their th1, which fights yeast, viruses and intracellular bacteria

> are low. NmcF

[Guest guest]

Maybe this has something to do with a person's " stage " of CFS? I used to

catch colds (stage 1) and then moved through that to this new place which I

now identify as stage three. Just a thought. I'm sorry I don't remember it

this would fit your profile or not, how long you have had CFS,etc...

From: <Inthepresent@...>

> , I have active hhv6 (Wisconsin lab) and good response to kutapressin

> and immunepro/imuplus. Intially, I had systemic candidiasis. This is all

> suggestive of th2 dominance, but I also catch colds at the drop of a hat!

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know if a cold is fought using Th1 or Th2 pathways? I think it's

Th1 but I wanted to be sure.

Jim

[Guest guest]

I think it is more complicated than this (isn't it always). In part

because " fighting " an infection is a time dependent process and different

aspects of immunity are used at different times. This is (at least partly)

why the TH1 and Th2 are connected through mutual suppression - so that if

one type of action is happening it suppresses the other for that time. I

don't know what the time dependent process is but it starts on one way then

progresses to the other.

n

At 06:41 27/08/01, you wrote:

>Does anyone know if a cold is fought using Th1 or Th2 pathways? I think it's

>Th1 but I wanted to be sure.

>

>Jim

>

>

>This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

>other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

>discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Suzanne.

I don't know if this will be of help in your brainfogged condition,

but here is a link to the T-Helper cell section of an online

physiology book:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Th1_Th2.html

I hope it helps.

Tom

[Guest guest]

I forgot. The Dallas/Fort Worth web page has an explanation also:

http://www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/

Tom

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " david " <d.molyneaux@...>

> For myself I have been using extract of African potato called Simba or an

extract of pine bark called Moducare.

>

> Regards

> Dave x UK

Dave-

Have you achieved any results from these products?

Kathy

[Guest guest]

I certainly have Kathy

my reactions to allergens/irritants such as house dust and perfumes has greatly

improved.

Dave x

Re: Th1/Th2

----- Original Message -----

From: " david " <d.molyneaux@...>

> For myself I have been using extract of African potato called Simba or an

extract of pine bark called Moducare.

>

> Regards

> Dave x UK

Dave-

Have you achieved any results from these products?

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb.

I've been discussing with a number of people that the existing

Th1/Th2 model is insufficient to understand what is experienced.

I'm not sure if this fits better, but I'm thinking about it.

Imagine that monocyctes such as macrophases are multifunctional. How

many basic functions do they have? Lets suggest three:

Inflammation (clearance of wounded tissue and laying down a framework

for healing)

Resolution (overlaying and replacing the temporary framework with new

cells

Pathogen killing (Cell mediated reactions to kill, Antigen

presentation and recognition)

Imagine a triangle with these three, where monocycte behaviour moves

between these states as directed by their environment:

Inflammation

Healing/Resolution Pathogen recognition/Killing

How does this sound?

>

> [in part]:

> " IMO, here is the progression:

>

> Acute infection--> chronic/occult infection -> chronic

inflammation --

> >

> symptoms present as specific disorders depending on tissue type

> (genetics, host-pathogen relationship) ---> secondary symptoms

emerge

> over time- allergies, GI problems, chemical and food sensitivities

> etc. "

>

>

>

>

> DURAMATER REPLIES:

> I absolutely concur about your hypothesized progression, albeit not

> from a scientific place but rather an experiential position.

>

> What I'm particularly curious about is the Th1/Th2 relationship with

> such a progression. I feel pretty confident in saying that in the

> latest stage you hypothesize (allergies, chem & food sensitivities)

> there is an over-regulation of Th2. But do we think there is a

> concommitent up-regulation in Th1 (as hypothesized by whats his

face)?

> Or what is going on with Th1 if anything? From whence does the

> inflammation arise?

>

> And being new to the literature on Th1/Th2, please SOMEONE correct

my

> rudimentary knowledge if its wrong... My understanding is that as

one

> tries to, say, downregulate Th1, T cells are shifted to Th2. So (A)

> can one have too much Th1 AND Th2? (seems like you can if just too

> much

> T cells are being generated in general) and ( lets say both are

> being

> over-done. If one tries to tamp down Th1 (in the context of too high

> Th1 & Th2), will that shift it over to EVEN MORE Th2????

>

> Lastly, what happens to folks taking benicar/mino if it really does

> tamp down Th1 cytokines but they already have too much Th2? Do Th2-

> related symptoms get even worse?

>

> Again, apologies for the rudimentary nature of these questions, but

> I'm

> just starting to work on my understanding of these areas involving

> Th1/Th2 & cytokines.

[Guest guest]

said [in part]:

" Imagine that monocyctes such as macrophases are multifunctional. "

OK, this confused me as my understanding was that monocytes were

some phagocytic WBCs that hang out primarily in the bloodstream and

macrophages were basically the same but hang out in certain organs

such as the spleen, lungs, bone marrow, etc. Your statement

confused the heck out of me as to the monocyte/macrophage

distinction.

Can someone correct me/fill me in?

And to be honest, , your hypothesis didn't work for me from a

perspective of clarity...perhaps if you elaborated on

your " triangle " model a bit more?

And Barb, while not a " real " distinction, it seems that most of the

literature uses it as a " shorthand " distinction. This reminds me of

the way people talk about long-term versus short-term memory as if

it is a real thing when, in fact, that is simply a distinction that

doesn't exist.

Nevertheless, even we brain scientists still use LT & ST to make a

gross distinction at times even though we KNOW it isn't real. It

seems like that how Th1/Th2 are being used, so...

[Guest guest]

I share your impression about monocytes vs. macrophages, DM.

I would like to echo the Nature quote from Barb, I think the science

is not clear enough to be summarized in a simple formula like Th1

vs. Th2 - the shorthand implies more clarity than really exists.

It is better to try and say what we actually mean.

's formula does not seem to take into account the central role

of T cells, which develop into EITHER or Type 1 or Type 2, but not

both, in defining the whole Th1 vs Th2 discussion. I would need to

hear him elaborate it to be sure.

Th1 vs. Th2 is often overlayed on top of other distinctions,

like 'cellular vs humoral immunity'.

In my own case, forgoing the shorthand means figuring out what the

researchers who interest me MEAN, specifically, when they say 'Type

2 cells are needed for effective antibody deployement against Bb',

so much so that by forcing naive T cells into the Type 2 form

instead, Bb spirochetes undermine host defenses.

I think there are important questions of sequence. If I simply

accept that Type 2 T helper cells are needed for antibody

development, I might link that to humoral immunity.

But then once the antibodies have been developed and deployed, isn't

the inflammatory response that we associate with cellular immunity

needed, to catch spirochetes that aren't just floating around in the

humor but have corkscrewed their way deep into tissues?

In other words, isn't the idea of one of these functioning to the

exclusion of the other kind of nonsensical?

It seems so to me. The complexities of the concept itself are

formidable. The complexity of its application to meaningful clinical

questions seems much more complex, still.

>

> said [in part]:

> " Imagine that monocyctes such as macrophases are multifunctional. "

>

> OK, this confused me as my understanding was that monocytes were

> some phagocytic WBCs that hang out primarily in the bloodstream

and

> macrophages were basically the same but hang out in certain organs

> such as the spleen, lungs, bone marrow, etc. Your statement

> confused the heck out of me as to the monocyte/macrophage

> distinction.

>

> Can someone correct me/fill me in?

>

> And to be honest, , your hypothesis didn't work for me from a

> perspective of clarity...perhaps if you elaborated on

> your " triangle " model a bit more?

>

> And Barb, while not a " real " distinction, it seems that most of

the

> literature uses it as a " shorthand " distinction. This reminds me

of

> the way people talk about long-term versus short-term memory as if

> it is a real thing when, in fact, that is simply a distinction

that

> doesn't exist.

>

> Nevertheless, even we brain scientists still use LT & ST to make a

> gross distinction at times even though we KNOW it isn't real. It

> seems like that how Th1/Th2 are being used, so...

[Guest guest]

OK, so just seeing if I'm on the right page: So Barb & are

suggesting that Th1/Th2 isn't a good distinction (A) certainly as

anything real, and ( maybe as even a " shorthand " either like STM/LTM,

yes?

OK, so if that stuff isn't really helpful, is it helpful to talk about

individual cytokines? I've been using the Th1/Th2 stuff for myself

to " group " the cytokines, but it sounds like skipping the Th1/Th2 is a

better way to go ( sounds like he doesn't like it either).

And the whole pushing the " system " from Th1-->Th2 and vice versa sounds

like that might be up for re-analysis too? So basically, just because

you are tamping down, for example, TFN-alpha doesn't mean that there

will be some concommitent increase in IL-13, 4, etc?

[Guest guest]

One difficulty with the study of cytokines in nature is that all

these cytokines, by design, degrade rapidly in humor.

Some investigators will attempt to assay levels of cytokine X

directly in humors... others collect sets of cells and assay how much

of cytokine X is produced in vitro in response to stimulation. I

think it may sometimes be such experiments that are used to conclude

that an illness is Th1 or Th2 dominant.

The only dx where I am somewhat familiar with this kind of work (read

a review article) is major depression, and the findings there by

different authors do not look resoundingly consistant.

Th1 and Th2 activation do inhibit one another in various ways, but I

dont know if that means they cant both be strongly or at least

moderately active in the same tissue simulataneously. A phenomenon in

the body is always being inhibited by at least 5 things, thats the

nature of biological business... but if its being promoted more than

its being inhibited, then it will be strongly present in spite of the

inhibition.

One experiment suggesting that activation of Th2 can significantly

inhibit Th1 activity is the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease

with helminths (which activate Th2). Reportedly this has been

partially or even completely(?) successful (at least in the short

run) for some people - perhaps not all. I wouldnt know of any other

experiments addressing the question.

I'm confused about how some of the Th2 cytokines actions fit into the

Th2 response, about which I know little. But I can answer your last

question in part; if you look at, say, an activated macrophage

producing IFN-g, TNF-a, IL-12, etc, then yes, exposure to IL-10 will

inhibit its secretion of those pro-inflammatory cytokines, as well as

its activation as a consumer and degrader of pathogens.

" duramater27 " <spam-barb@c...> wrote:

>

> OK, so just seeing if I'm on the right page: So Barb & are

> suggesting that Th1/Th2 isn't a good distinction (A) certainly as

> anything real, and ( maybe as even a " shorthand " either like

STM/LTM,

> yes?

>

> OK, so if that stuff isn't really helpful, is it helpful to talk

about

> individual cytokines? I've been using the Th1/Th2 stuff for myself

> to " group " the cytokines, but it sounds like skipping the Th1/Th2

is a

> better way to go ( sounds like he doesn't like it either).

>

> And the whole pushing the " system " from Th1-->Th2 and vice versa

sounds

> like that might be up for re-analysis too? So basically, just

because

> you are tamping down, for example, TFN-alpha doesn't mean that

there

> will be some concommitent increase in IL-13, 4, etc?

[Guest guest]

wrote in part:

One experiment suggesting that activation of Th2 can significantly

inhibit Th1 activity is the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease

with helminths (which activate Th2). Reportedly this has been

partially or even completely(?) successful (at least in the short

run) for some people - perhaps not all.

I like the sound of helminths. It reminds me of Hell Mints, which

seem like an appropriate thing to feed the Hell Mouth that this

illness has become, in hope of it spewing forth less heinous

symptoms.

Sorry, that's about all my brain is good for these days. Anyhow, I

recall reading about Hell Mints but not what I read. I thought, in

the spirit of these discussions about clear language, I would ask

you to say as clearly as you can:

What do you mean when you say that " helminths...activate Th2? " What

exactly is it they activate, or what are the direct effects?

I think it would be good to assume that question when we post. I

don't now the answer for my own favorite use of the Th1/Th2

dichotomy, but thought perhaps you'd know more about 'heminths'.

Do they by chance leave your receptors feeling minty fresh?

Cheers,