Re: Non-Specific Aerobic work for Anaerobic Sports

[Guest guest]

Hi Bryce,

We actually hit exactly my problem. I'm conditioning coach for tennis

players and up to now my focus was only on anaerobic conditioning. The

average length of a point is 5-6 sec, with 2-3 short bursts followed

by 15-20 sec rest. So the work rest ratio is 1:4. There are not much

variation in the data due to different surfaces or mens or womens game.

So, my problem is. That I concentrated on anaerobic conditioning, very

close to the specific situations in a match. There are 2 main

opinions in conditioning for tennis.

Some people believe strongly in aerobic conditioning and send their

players 3 times a week for a 30-60 min run, others neglect aerobic

conitioning with the idea, if you train specific, short bursts and

short rest will develop your aerobic system sufficiently.

I believed this for along time, but I think you definitely need some

basic aerobic training. In a certain period, for a certain time to

build up on this...

I just started with that now and want to see how it goes.

Sorry, if I bore someone with that long mail, but if someone has

experience with this " problem " , please let me know.

Thanks,

Christian Bosse.

Germany.

>

> I have seen a lot of my Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) training partners

perform long aerobic

> conditioning with the hopes that this type of training is going to

improve their MMA

> specific conditioning. I believe they are decreasing their power

output and putting a lot of

> unneccesary wear and tear on the body.

>

> I just don't see how long duration linear jogging is specific to

MMA, BJJ, wrestling,

> judo...etc.

>

> This type of training will strengthen the cardiovascular system and

allow the oxygenated

> blood to flow to the worked musculature more efficiently, but will

it???

>

> I will give an example. What if someone performed an arm ergometer

(cycle for the

> upperbody), which in turn increased their VO2 max. The upperbody

would have a higher

> work capacity, but would the lower body also receive the same benefits?

>

> Lets say that same person who performed the arm ergometer decided to

go on a long

> distance run, would he be able to perform that run more efficiently

because of the arm

> ergometer training he did (e.g. better lactate buffering, higher

VO2, larger stroke

> volume...ect.) or is the training he did muscle specific? Would he

only be able to do better

> with upperbody conditioning activities?

>

> Let me get back to my point after that general example. Will long

distance running help a

> MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover more efficiently?

Linear running will

> work different muscles and energy systems than grappling/stand-up

game, but will the

> aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover more inbetween rounds or

during less intense

> work?

>

> Any comments/research would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Bryce Teager, CSCS, USAW

> UNO Strength and Conditioning G.A.

> Omaha, NE

>

[Guest guest]

Bryce,

I am not sure what you mean by a long aerobic workout,

but boxers have historically done some level of road

work. I am sure that immediately afterwards their

power level is off in their punches, but it does not

appear to adversely affect power during the match.

The ability to not get winded would seem to increase

the ability to deliver a powerful punch in the later

rounds. I assume the same would apply in a mixed art.

For what it is worth, I read once that Arthur Lydiard

(the coach who popularlized long runs) worked with

Spinks having him punch a bag for up to 2

hours. I doubt it was actually that long, but it

certainly was not power training. The claim was that

it enabled Spinks to continue punching hard in the

later rounds. It was obviously more specific training

than running, but there was no suggestion that it was

done in place of the usual roadwork.

Jon Haddan

Irvine, CA

--- Bryce Teager wrote:

> I have seen a lot of my Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)

> training partners perform long aerobic

> conditioning with the hopes that this type of

> training is going to improve their MMA

> specific conditioning. I believe they are

> decreasing their power output and putting a lot of

> unneccesary wear and tear on the body.

>

> I just don't see how long duration linear jogging is

> specific to MMA, BJJ, wrestling,

> judo...etc.

>

> This type of training will strengthen the

> cardiovascular system and allow the oxygenated

> blood to flow to the worked musculature more

> efficiently, but will it???

>

> I will give an example. What if someone performed

> an arm ergometer (cycle for the

> upperbody), which in turn increased their VO2 max.

> The upperbody would have a higher

> work capacity, but would the lower body also receive

> the same benefits?

>

> Lets say that same person who performed the arm

> ergometer decided to go on a long

> distance run, would he be able to perform that run

> more efficiently because of the arm

> ergometer training he did (e.g. better lactate

> buffering, higher VO2, larger stroke

> volume...ect.) or is the training he did muscle

> specific? Would he only be able to do better

> with upperbody conditioning activities?

>

> Let me get back to my point after that general

> example. Will long distance running help a

> MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover

> more efficiently? Linear running will

> work different muscles and energy systems than

> grappling/stand-up game, but will the

> aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover more

> inbetween rounds or during less intense

> work?

>

> Any comments/research would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Bryce Teager, CSCS, USAW

> UNO Strength and Conditioning G.A.

> Omaha, NE

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I emailed this question to retired judo Olympian Rhadi Ferguson. Here

is the reply of a man who has been in judo at the most extreme levels:

We are not anti-long steady distance (LSD) training. We do understand

that

it has its place and that the demands of MMA require anaerobic and

aerobic

conditioning but the demands are more intermittent than long and

steady,

thus we train anaerobically.

Will long distance training help recovery? Being a trained

individual will

help recovery. But if you are doing something that you haven't

trained to do

- it will be difficult to recover. Meaning, the demands of the sport

will

outweigh what you have prepared for.

Conditioning over all will help the cardiovascular system but

localized

adaptation will only occur for the particular body part that you have

trained in terms of the Hydrogen Lactic Acid Buffering. Meaning,

working on

an UBE will help your cardiovascular system and create a more

efficient

hemodynamics but it won't condition your legs to withstand the

Hydrogen

build up in them and buffer so that you can keep pushing.

I hope that gives a clear answer to your questions

Dave

Yorkshire

UK

>

> I have seen a lot of my Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) training partners

perform long aerobic

> conditioning with the hopes that this type of training is going to

improve their MMA

> specific conditioning. I believe they are decreasing their power

output and putting a lot of

> unneccesary wear and tear on the body.

>

> I just don't see how long duration linear jogging is specific to

MMA, BJJ, wrestling,

> judo...etc.

>

> This type of training will strengthen the cardiovascular system and

allow the oxygenated

> blood to flow to the worked musculature more efficiently, but will

it???

>

> I will give an example. What if someone performed an arm ergometer

(cycle for the

> upperbody), which in turn increased their VO2 max. The upperbody

would have a higher

> work capacity, but would the lower body also receive the same

benefits?

>

> Lets say that same person who performed the arm ergometer decided

to go on a long

> distance run, would he be able to perform that run more efficiently

because of the arm

> ergometer training he did (e.g. better lactate buffering, higher

VO2, larger stroke

> volume...ect.) or is the training he did muscle specific? Would he

only be able to do better

> with upperbody conditioning activities?

>

> Let me get back to my point after that general example. Will long

distance running help a

> MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover more

efficiently? Linear running will

> work different muscles and energy systems than grappling/stand-up

game, but will the

> aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover more inbetween rounds or

during less intense

> work?

>

> Any comments/research would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Bryce Teager, CSCS, USAW

> UNO Strength and Conditioning G.A.

> Omaha, NE

>

[Guest guest]

Bryce,

Being a trainer and a huge fan of MMA, I have thought about this topic as

well. I also play a sport that is highly anaerobic in nature (beach

volleyball). I agree with you. I am a big fan of the SAID principle, and I

know everyone likes to throw that around, BUT I am not sure many follow it as

vehemently as they should. I would not have a MMA fighter do long duration

aerobic work, period. This is a sport that places a premium on speed, power,

and explosiveness. Long duration aerobic work will do nothing to help, and in

fact would hurt the fighter in this regard.

For conditioning purposes I would construct intervals based on the type of

fighting they do - stand up vs ground and work from that. A ground and pound

fighter's workout might look like the following:

A1)1 take-down followed by 45 secs of ground pound on a heavy bag lying on the

floor

A2) 30-45 seconds of trying to reverse the mount position

repeat each for a 5 minute interval followed by a 1 minute rest and repeat for

3-4 intervals.

This should replicate the round structure of the UFC.

Practicing fighting under the conditions above allows the trainer to combine

sport and conditioning training together. If a fighter goes through a typical

workout followed by an intense conditioning workout I think the possibility of

over-training is quite high. I think more sports should focus on including

conditioning drills into there sports practices in general versus adding

exhaustive workout at the end of a typical practice. For example, have 4 WRs

run pass routes while DBs cover them. Include pass routes of varying length to

help simulate game conditions. Have WR 1 go for a route while DB 1 covers once

the play ends they slow jog back while WR2 goes against DB2 etc Continue this

until each player hits a desired number of reps. This would be more porductive

than working on technique for an hour where they are constantly running routes

then finish up with 15 40yd sprints for conditioning work at the end of

practice. This might also help cut down on muscle injuries.

Steve Laubenberg CSCS CPT

Houston Texas

Bryce Teager wrote:

I have seen a lot of my Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) training partners perform

long aerobic

conditioning with the hopes that this type of training is going to improve their

MMA

specific conditioning. I believe they are decreasing their power output and

putting a lot of

unneccesary wear and tear on the body.

I just don't see how long duration linear jogging is specific to MMA, BJJ,

wrestling,

judo...etc.

This type of training will strengthen the cardiovascular system and allow the

oxygenated

blood to flow to the worked musculature more efficiently, but will it???

I will give an example. What if someone performed an arm ergometer (cycle for

the

upperbody), which in turn increased their VO2 max. The upperbody would have a

higher

work capacity, but would the lower body also receive the same benefits?

Lets say that same person who performed the arm ergometer decided to go on a

long

distance run, would he be able to perform that run more efficiently because of

the arm

ergometer training he did (e.g. better lactate buffering, higher VO2, larger

stroke

volume...ect.) or is the training he did muscle specific? Would he only be able

to do better

with upperbody conditioning activities?

Let me get back to my point after that general example. Will long distance

running help a

MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover more efficiently? Linear

running will

work different muscles and energy systems than grappling/stand-up game, but will

the

aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover more inbetween rounds or during less

intense

work?

Any comments/research would be greatly appreciated.

Bryce Teager, CSCS, USAW

UNO Strength and Conditioning G.A.

Omaha, NE

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/5/2006 4:14:33 A.M. Central Standard Time,

bat1201@... writes:

<<<Let me get back to my point after that general example. Will long distance

running help a MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover more

efficiently? Linear running will work different muscles and energy systems

than

grappling/stand-up game, but will the aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover

more in between rounds or during less intense work?>>>

In my experience, LSD running does not improve recovery time between rounds

of fighting. HIT training is a far more effective means of training that

recovery. There's an excellent book called " Going Ballistic: CST for Boxing " by

that presents a brilliant method for training the athlete's

energy systems for combat sports. It's available from RMAX.tv Productions.

kson, CST

Minneapolis, MN USA

_www.ClubbellTrainer.com_ (http://www.clubbelltrainer.com/)

" Better Living Through Movement. "

" Be good to yourself. If you don't take care of your body, where will you

live? "

- Kobi Yamada

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/5/2006 4:14:33 A.M. Central Standard Time,

> bat1201@a... writes:

>

> <<<Let me get back to my point after that general example. Will

long distance

> running help a MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover

more

> efficiently? Linear running will work different muscles and

energy systems than

> grappling/stand-up game, but will the aerobic work help the MMA

athlete recover

> more in between rounds or during less intense work?>>>

>

> In my experience, LSD running does not improve recovery time

between rounds

> of fighting. HIT training is a far more effective means of training

that

> recovery. There's an excellent book called " Going Ballistic: CST

for Boxing " by

> that presents a brilliant method for training the

athlete's

> energy systems for combat sports. It's available from RMAX.tv

Productions.

***I think you mean HIIT (High intensity interval training) since HIT is that 1

set to failure and no ballistic actions approach in the

weights room. Sorry if I am mistaken.

Dave

Yorkshire

UK

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:58:34 A.M. Central Standard Time,

djtaro1985@... writes:

<<<I think you mean HIIT (High intensity interval training) since HIT is

that 1 set to failure and no ballistic actions approach in the

weights room. Sorry if I am mistaken.>>>

Dave

Yorkshire

UK

You are correct! I did mean HIIT.

kson, CST

Minneapolis, MN USA

_www.ClubbellTrainer.com_ (http://www.clubbelltrainer.com/)

" Better Living Through Movement. "

" Be good to yourself. If you don't take care of your body, where will you

live? "

- Kobi Yamada

[Guest guest]

I have been following this discussion with some

interest. To this point no one has defined what is

meant by an anaerobic sport. Most of the examples

cited- boxing, tennis, soccer, martial arts etc, the

way I see are in reality high intensity aerobic

sports.

There are very few truly anaerobic sports. In my

opinion truly anaerobic sports are sports that last

less than 20 seconds. The 100 and 200 meters sprints,

Olympic weight lifting to name a few. Many of the

sports which have been cited as anaerobic are for the

most part high intensity aerobic sports.

Unfortunately for many the terms aerobic and endurance

often conjures up the vision of somebody jogging along

at a leisurely pace or an aerobics instructor going

through their paces with a group of middle aged couch

potatoes.

Without endurance do you think a boxer would be able

to throw a knock out punch in the the 15th round after

running around the ring, dancing and weaving for 45

minutes? Would a Tennis player be able to still ace

the serve after running around the tennis court for

1-2 hours? Would a volleyball player still be able to

jump and spike a winner after an hour of diving and

running around the court digging out low balls?

True many of these and other sports have moments of

extremely high intensity efforts but these efforts are

support by periods of high intensity aerobic efforts

as well. I agree that running 5 miles is inappropriate

for most of these sports except perhaps for some

general conditioning early in the season. High

intensity sport specific aerobic intervals is the more

appropriate. But in order to carry out these high

intensity aerobic intervals you need a broad aerobic

base upon which to build.

Aerobic conditioning involves more than just the

specific muscles involved in a particular activity.

It involves an increased cardiac output capacity, an

increased Oxygen carrying capacity of the blood cells,

an increased vascular capacity to carry to blood to

all the muscles, as well as an increased

capillarization of the muscles.

The muscle fibers involved in purely anaerobic

activity are the type IIb fibers. These fibers have

no mitochondria and while they produce a tremendous

amount of lactate they are unable to utilize or

dispose of the lactate which is produced. To clear

the lactate quickly the lactate needs to leave these

fibers, enter the blood stream and taken up by the

surrounding muscle fibers that have mitochondria (type

I -slow oxidative fibers - and type IIa- fast

oxidative glycolytic fibers), where the lactate is

used for energy, or taken up by the liver where the

lactate is reconverted back to glucose. This latter

process, which is important for quick recovery between

high intensity anaerobic bouts, requires a well

developed aerobic capacity.

A good aerobic capacity is developed through

appropriate combination of endurance type aerobic

workouts and high intensity aerobic intervals.

Once you have a good aerobic infrastructure

(heart,lungs,oxygen carrying capacity, blood supply)

it becomes easier to train sport specific aerobic and

anaerobic capcity through high intense intevals.

I would be interested in reading the opinions of other

as to what consitutes an anaerobic sport.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington, CT

--- djtaro1985 wrote:

> I emailed this question to retired judo Olympian

> Rhadi Ferguson. Here

> is the reply of a man who has been in judo at the

> most extreme levels:

>

> We are not anti-long steady distance (LSD) training.

> We do understand

> that

> it has its place and that the demands of MMA require

> anaerobic and

> aerobic

> conditioning but the demands are more intermittent

> than long and

> steady,

> thus we train anaerobically.

>

> Will long distance training help recovery? Being a

> trained

> individual will

> help recovery. But if you are doing something that

> you haven't

> trained to do

> - it will be difficult to recover. Meaning, the

> demands of the sport

> will

> outweigh what you have prepared for.

>

> Conditioning over all will help the cardiovascular

> system but

> localized

> adaptation will only occur for the particular body

> part that you have

> trained in terms of the Hydrogen Lactic Acid

> Buffering. Meaning,

> working on

> an UBE will help your cardiovascular system and

> create a more

> efficient

> hemodynamics but it won't condition your legs to

> withstand the

> Hydrogen

> build up in them and buffer so that you can keep

> pushing.

>

>

> I hope that gives a clear answer to your questions

>

> Dave

> Yorkshire

> UK

>

>

> >

> > I have seen a lot of my Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)

> training partners

> perform long aerobic

> > conditioning with the hopes that this type of

> training is going to

> improve their MMA

> > specific conditioning. I believe they are

> decreasing their power

> output and putting a lot of

> > unneccesary wear and tear on the body.

> >

> > I just don't see how long duration linear jogging

> is specific to

> MMA, BJJ, wrestling,

> > judo...etc.

> >

> > This type of training will strengthen the

> cardiovascular system and

> allow the oxygenated

> > blood to flow to the worked musculature more

> efficiently, but will

> it???

> >

> > I will give an example. What if someone performed

> an arm ergometer

> (cycle for the

> > upperbody), which in turn increased their VO2 max.

> The upperbody

> would have a higher

> > work capacity, but would the lower body also

> receive the same

> benefits?

> >

> > Lets say that same person who performed the arm

> ergometer decided

> to go on a long

> > distance run, would he be able to perform that run

> more efficiently

> because of the arm

> > ergometer training he did (e.g. better lactate

> buffering, higher

> VO2, larger stroke

> > volume...ect.) or is the training he did muscle

> specific? Would he

> only be able to do better

> > with upperbody conditioning activities?

> >

> > Let me get back to my point after that general

> example. Will long

> distance running help a

> > MMA/wrestler/football athlete perform and recover

> more

> efficiently? Linear running will

> > work different muscles and energy systems than

> grappling/stand-up

> game, but will the

> > aerobic work help the MMA athlete recover more

> inbetween rounds or

> during less intense

> > work?

> >

> > Any comments/research would be greatly

> appreciated.

> >

> > Bryce Teager, CSCS, USAW

> > UNO Strength and Conditioning G.A.

> > Omaha, NE

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ralph,

While it is true that few sports rely solely on anaerobic metabolism as an

energy source, most sports get most of their energy from anaerobic metabolism.

Bompa has discussed this in several of his books, and he has charts that

estimate the contributions of the different energy systems to different sports.

The longer the work intervals in the sport the more aerobic metabolism would

contribute, and conversely the shorter and more intense the intervals the more

anaerobic metabolism would contribute.

The more I have trained the more I disagree with needing to build an aerobic

base. Let's say we take a beach volleyball player (this is my primary sport),

and lets say we run him through a workout that consist of high intensity

interval training with intervals of varying lengths (5 secs, 15 secs, and

30secs) with a 45 seecond rest interval for the 5 and 15 second work intervals

and a 1 minute rest interval for the the 30 sec work interval. If the workout

lasted for a total of 30 minutes, I would bet that the athlete above would

improve efficiency in all types of metabolism proportionally to the contribution

of the energy system to the sport. If you compared the training effect of the

above workout to the training effect of an 30 minute aerobic workout you would

most certainly find differences. We know that the body adapts to what it is

exposed to in training. If we put an athlete through a 30 minute aerobic

workout we would, for example, find increases in certain enzymes that

would aid aerobic metabolism and improve his ability to tolerate such work. If

we took him through the workout I detailed above we would find similar

improvements to his system BUT to the different elements that improve his

ability to utilize the CP, anaerobic, and aerobic energy systems. For example,

his ability to tolerate and remove lactic acid should be improved, the short

work intervals should improve his CP system, and the aerobic system is being

taxed as his body places some demands on this during recovery and he would be in

an elevated state of metabolism for a period after the workout.

I am not saying I would never have an athlete do aerobic work, but it is

important to remember that the body adapts to the types of training it is

exposed to. For maximum training effect to take place the training should mimic

the sport as closely as possible.

Steve Laubenberg

Houston Texas

Ralph Giarnella wrote:

I have been following this discussion with some

interest. To this point no one has defined what is

meant by an anaerobic sport. Most of the examples

cited- boxing, tennis, soccer, martial arts etc, the

way I see are in reality high intensity aerobic

sports.

There are very few truly anaerobic sports. In my

opinion truly anaerobic sports are sports that last

less than 20 seconds. The 100 and 200 meters sprints,

Olympic weight lifting to name a few. Many of the

sports which have been cited as anaerobic are for the

most part high intensity aerobic sports.

Unfortunately for many the terms aerobic and endurance

often conjures up the vision of somebody jogging along

at a leisurely pace or an aerobics instructor going

through their paces with a group of middle aged couch

potatoes.

Without endurance do you think a boxer would be able

to throw a knock out punch in the the 15th round after

running around the ring, dancing and weaving for 45

minutes? Would a Tennis player be able to still ace

the serve after running around the tennis court for

1-2 hours? Would a volleyball player still be able to

jump and spike a winner after an hour of diving and

running around the court digging out low balls?

True many of these and other sports have moments of

extremely high intensity efforts but these efforts are

support by periods of high intensity aerobic efforts

as well. I agree that running 5 miles is inappropriate

for most of these sports except perhaps for some

general conditioning early in the season. High

intensity sport specific aerobic intervals is the more

appropriate. But in order to carry out these high

intensity aerobic intervals you need a broad aerobic

base upon which to build.

Aerobic conditioning involves more than just the

specific muscles involved in a particular activity.

It involves an increased cardiac output capacity, an

increased Oxygen carrying capacity of the blood cells,

an increased vascular capacity to carry to blood to

all the muscles, as well as an increased

capillarization of the muscles.

The muscle fibers involved in purely anaerobic

activity are the type IIb fibers. These fibers have

no mitochondria and while they produce a tremendous

amount of lactate they are unable to utilize or

dispose of the lactate which is produced. To clear

the lactate quickly the lactate needs to leave these

fibers, enter the blood stream and taken up by the

surrounding muscle fibers that have mitochondria (type

I -slow oxidative fibers - and type IIa- fast

oxidative glycolytic fibers), where the lactate is

used for energy, or taken up by the liver where the

lactate is reconverted back to glucose. This latter

process, which is important for quick recovery between

high intensity anaerobic bouts, requires a well

developed aerobic capacity.

A good aerobic capacity is developed through

appropriate combination of endurance type aerobic

workouts and high intensity aerobic intervals.

Once you have a good aerobic infrastructure

(heart,lungs,oxygen carrying capacity, blood supply)

it becomes easier to train sport specific aerobic and

anaerobic capcity through high intense intevals.

I would be interested in reading the opinions of other

as to what consitutes an anaerobic sport.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington, CT