Every other day antibiotics?

[Guest guest]

I know I am always asking questions so here goes again! I am very

unsure whether an every other day protocol of abx, (Plaquenil and

Erythromycin) is likely to be effective in killing off borrelia and

maybe I have other infections like mycoplasma too or is it more likely

to cause drug resistant bacteria and be ineffective?

The reason I am asking is because I had what must be called a " herx "

reaction after 12 days of abx that went on giving me lots of

inflammation and made me feel really unwell. I stopped the abx for 24

hours and felt considerably better, in fact I had a brilliant day

yesterday.

I will ask my doctor (AW) but it sometimes takes a while for him to

get back to me. I am not taking an ARB at all.

Thanks

Pam

[Guest guest]

Pam, I think the body needs breaks. I have done all sorts of on off

combos and high low doses. The one thing I would say is that the

cycles need to be a min of 5 weeks. That high and low doses do work,

and that breaks are ok, to mop up inflammation, else the IS goes into

over drive and produces too much inflammation.

bleu

>

> I know I am always asking questions so here goes again!  I am very

> unsure whether an every other day protocol of abx, (Plaquenil and

> Erythromycin) is likely to be effective in killing off borrelia and

> maybe I have other infections like mycoplasma too or is it more likely

> to cause drug resistant bacteria and be ineffective?

>

> The reason I am asking is because I had what must be called a " herx "

> reaction after 12 days of abx that went on giving me lots of

> inflammation and made me feel really unwell.  I stopped the abx for 24

> hours and felt considerably better, in fact I had a brilliant day

> yesterday.

>

> I will ask my doctor (AW) but it sometimes takes a while for him to

> get back to me.  I am not taking an ARB at all.

>

> Thanks

>

> Pam

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure we can generalize about the cycles, Steve - herxing

doesn't make nice and conform to our expectations, not real herxing

anyway.

There's a balancing point for every person, where the antibiotics

are A) producing more endotoxin from die off than the body can cope

with without the immune system going bezerk and feeding more

inflammation than already compromised tissues and organs can

tolerate without sustaining real damage (reversible or not).

I think tissue damage forces the body into repair mode and that

probably sets back the anti-infection effort a good deal, because of

changes in hormones, cyokines and other biochemical messengers.

Knowing when you've reached that point is largely a trial and error

thing, I believe. Some people swear they have regular 28 day herx

cycles, but when something is that predictable you have to wonder

how much of it is the mind anticipating that something will happen

and so it does.

Maybe I'm just unsually stupid, but I keep getting caught off guard

by the damn things, having to dump my assumptions and just pay

attention to what's happening now.

My LLMD has her own set of assumptions, that seem to be correct

about as often as mine are, that is, not much more than half the

time, and maybe less.

So much has to happen for these miserable worm-like bacteria to to

give up the ghost. Once that's been managed, a whole other set of

processes are needed to remove the endotoxin released. Things can

and do go wrong at every stage. Those things would make a mess of

any 'natural' cycle of activity, assuming there was such a thing.

I have noticed there is usually a jump in herx symptoms somewhere

between day 4 and day 8 of any new antibiotic, in my case. Apart

from that, the rest seems pretty random. My LLMD says flatly,

now, " We won't know for months how you've really reacted, how much

of the exacerbation of symptoms is herx and how much is ongoing or

progressing disease. "

If she didn't say things like that, I wouldn't trust her at all.

I have coinfections, three that we feel confident about, and two of

those we're pretty sure affect how I'm doing symptomatically, and

how my immune system conducts its business. That plus the maddening

unpredictability of Lyme means no rule like '5 week cycles at a

minimum' is going to do me much good.

I know you know how variable these things can be, and it doesn't

make me any less interested in what others have found to be true,

just very wary of drawing inferences.

> Pam, I think the body needs breaks. I have done all sorts of on

off

> combos and high low doses. The one thing I would say is that the

> cycles need to be a min of 5 weeks. That high and low doses do

work,

> and that breaks are ok, to mop up inflammation, else the IS goes

into

> over drive and produces too much inflammation.

>

> bleu

> >

> > I know I am always asking questions so here goes again!  I am

very

> > unsure whether an every other day protocol of abx, (Plaquenil

and

> > Erythromycin) is likely to be effective in killing off borrelia

and

> > maybe I have other infections like mycoplasma too or is it more

likely

> > to cause drug resistant bacteria and be ineffective?

> >

> > The reason I am asking is because I had what must be called

a " herx "

> > reaction after 12 days of abx that went on giving me lots of

> > inflammation and made me feel really unwell.  I stopped the abx

for 24

> > hours and felt considerably better, in fact I had a brilliant

day

> > yesterday.

> >

> > I will ask my doctor (AW) but it sometimes takes a while for

him to

> > get back to me.  I am not taking an ARB at all.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Pam

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

We do have really similar experiences, Nelly. Aspirin and codeine

seem like logical candidates for relief.

I read the other day that scientists think its the release of

endogenous opioids that stops seizures, which also fits with my

experience. I can't tolerate aspirin very well, but maybe I'll try

the enteric coated time again. Usually I can take that for a while

before I get sensitized and even it makes things worse in my GI

tract.

Tinidazole is something I'd like to try soon, but for now it's on

hold, scheduled to begin with IV Rocephin after a stretch on IM

Bicillin.

That sounds encouraging to me, about being able to tolerate high

doses of antibiotics. My first thought is your bacterial load must

be coming down. I wish we could kill all the buggers at once, but

I'll settle for slow, steady progress.

Good news or bad, always cheers me up to hear from you, Nelly!

> ,

>

> I'm like you, little or no certainties about things.

>

> In fact, like you I can't say I have ever been able to pinpoint

any real patterns to " herxes " , like you I do notice a lot of

inflammation after a few days on a new abx or new combo, especially

head and eyes.

>

> The only thing I am really sure of is that tinidazole does big

things for me, but the price to pay in terms of brain exploding,

toxic feelings, liver and pancreas not coping stops me from using it

as much as I would like to. I am pulsing it and I am keeping my

fingers crossed.

>

> Another thing I know is that I am able to cope with using more abx

than when I first started treating 5 years ago when 100 mg of doxy

had me in agony with inflammtion everywhere.

>

> Another thing I know is that ibuprofen does NOT help at all, that

paracetamol does not either. Aspirin in combo with codeine is

theonly thing that helps, FWIW.

>

> Nelly

[Guest guest]

Hi

I did every other day for a while, until I could work up to every day. I

always was sick on days I took the abx, but pretty good on the days I didn't

(better and better on the off days as time when on.) In fact, for about 6

months I wanted to keep working but couldn't because of the herxing, so what

I did was work every other week. I took the abx for a week I didn't work,

then I worked the opposit week. I continued to improve under this protocol.

I have no idea what bacteria I have though as I have never been able to get

a conclusive test.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " doggy532001 " <doggy532001@...>

> I know I am always asking questions so here goes again! I am very

> unsure whether an every other day protocol of abx, (Plaquenil and

> Erythromycin) is likely to be effective in killing off borrelia and

> maybe I have other infections like mycoplasma too or is it more likely

> to cause drug resistant bacteria and be ineffective?