Sheiko Routines

[Guest guest]

I have a question for any of you who are familiar with the Russian

powerlifting routines. I know Hobman has used some variations of

these routines with success and I have experimented with them also. My

experience with the routines is that they always lead to overtraining

when used at the percentages recommended but when lowered considerably

they can be quite beneficial and have had made some significant changes

to my 55 year old body. My question to you is has anyone used them and

could you outline your program and results.

Supposedly, the Russians use these methods to develope their elite

powerlifters. What I have noticed is that they have produced some

outstanding younger lifters with this type training but I have many

times competed against their masters lifters and found them to be not

nearly on the same level considering the age factor of course.

When I do the routines I do not vary from them in any appreciable way

except that I do reduce the percentages and I never do the double

workouts. I also will use bands and other tweaks for some of the

training sessions but follow the rep scheme and philosophy of the

workout. A couple of weeks ago right after a national meet I had

competed in I had my bodyfat checked and at 186 my bodyfat was 8.7%. I

am not a bodybuilder and my diet consists of a 40-40-20 % protein, carb,

fat ratio of about 2200 calories a day. I dehydrate to competition wt.

of 181. My lifts were 560 squat, 360 bench, 650 deadlift. I hope to

total 1700 at 181 this year as I have done that at 198.

These routines have made me leaner and given me more stamina. In the

past when I tried to use them at full percentages I always got injured

or overtrained. I assumed that they were designed for younger enhanced

lifters so I cut the percentages back more reasonably for a drug free

masters lifter. I then got some significant results. If anyone else

can share their experience or research in this area I would be extremely

interested. Thanks in advance.

Eddie White

Blue Springs, Missouri

[Guest guest]

Greetings...

I coach a high school powerlifting team... we're stuck with what we're doing

for this season, as competition begins in three weeks, but LONG range, I have

twelve months to coach some fairly stout kids...

A 148 pounder, who reps 4 x 4 squat at 365, 4 x 4 bench at 255, and 4 x 4

deadlift again at 365.

We're working speed and explosion in football offseason from 1 Mar 06 to 1 Jun

06, and then summer is strength again...we'll lose strength focus from 1 Aug to

1 Nov 06, and then begin training or 1 Jan 07 powerlifting season again.

These are constraints applied by My head coach, and they are non negotiable.

I'd enjoy ANY suggestions on that kind of schedule with the constraints I

have.

Be well,

Bear Guinard

Ft. Worth, TX

" Quelques hommes sont vivants simplement parce que c'est illégal

pour les tuer. " { " Some men are living simply because it is illegal to kill

them. " } ---- W. Howe

....details are the playthings of lesser minds...

....pain simply says you are alive...

[Guest guest]

>

> I have a question for any of you who are familiar with the Russian

> powerlifting routines. I know Hobman has used some

variations of

> these routines with success and I have experimented with them

also. My

> experience with the routines is that they always lead to

overtraining

> when used at the percentages recommended but when lowered

considerably

> they can be quite beneficial and have had made some significant

changes

> to my 55 year old body. My question to you is has anyone used them

and

> could you outline your program and results.

>

> Supposedly, the Russians use these methods to develope their elite

> powerlifters. What I have noticed is that they have produced some

> outstanding younger lifters with this type training but I have many

> times competed against their masters lifters and found them to be

not

> nearly on the same level considering the age factor of course.

***Performing predominately competition lifts with very little

variation you are most likely to encounter certain problems. For

instance, both the Sheiko routines and Bulgarian methods

(generalisation) seem to tend to shorten the lifter's career and can

lead to overtraining if utilized incorrectly. Although, rapid

improvement in performance is noted early on the lifters career as

you mentioned. (Increased synaptic facilitation).

The Sheiko program seems quite rigid and that's where some of the

Westside and the Bulgarian concepts can be exploited e.g., both have

some type of `cybernetic' periodisation; their training evolves

accordingly with athlete's physiological, emotional and psychological

states.

Some of the warm-ups do seem excessive in the Sheiko routine hence

may be you could substitute the actual warm-up pre-activity

competition lifts with other activities? The lower % competition

lifts could be utilized on a separate day similar to the dynamic day

a la Westside. Similar to what has suggested.

Criticisms appreciated

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

I am in my first year of powerlifting after about 23 years of off and

on weightlifting (more or less " bodybuilding " )

I have used the Sheiko " beginner " routine twice now..this one

http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/sheikotraining1.htm

a quick summary....when I started the year I hadn't benched in a

while...so my max was an oldddd max of 225x2 done like 7 or 8 years

ago...I hadnt been near that much in a while.

I had never really deadlifted much....my best was 315x3 (using

straps) which was really maybe the 3rd or 4th time I ever deadlifted.

I don't remember what my squat was earlier in the year but at the

beginning of my it was 355.

I did a simple 3x5 program for a couple of months....at the beginn

ng of may my lifts were

bench 290 touch and go

squat 355

dead 375 (June)

In May I started " westside " training....either it was wrong for me or

I was doing it reallllllyyyyy wrong....my bench totally stalled even

though it was moving steadily before westside.

Around the middle of sept I stopped westside....I did a bench meet at

only got 275 paused...so in early Sept my lifts were:

bench 275 paused..best of 290 touch and go (months earlier)

squat 365

dead 405

I started my first Sheiko phase on Sept 12th...all in all it was

about a 6 week cycle.

I did the beginner phase for 3 weeks...then I did 1 week of

deloading...then one week of peaking for bench...then a week of

deload leading to a test night....on the test night I bench 315 with

a pause.

A cool 40 lb paused gain in 6 weeks.

So what do you think my opinion of sheiko is? lol

I didnt " peak " for squat or dead...I worked up to a max on the last

squat workout and did 375 (small 10lb pr)....of course at that point

you are probably too worn down to max but I wanted to concentrate on

bench only so I just maxed to get the squat out of the way.

On the first cycle I didn't max or test deads at all.

So started my second Sheiko cycle I had these starting maxes:

*bench 315 paused

*squat 375 (in truth it was probably higher since I didnt really max

properly...if I would have deloading a week and then tested it would

probably have been higher)

*dead...estimated 425...I didnt test fo rmax so I estimated

I basically just finished my second sheiko phase...I just did the

beginner one again...obviously the second time thru it the volume

wasn't nearly as much of a shock to my body.

I did one week of peaking for the squat and about 2.5-3 weeks for the

bench and dead.

I ended up with these numbers:

*squat 425 (60lbs gained over 2 sheiko phases)

*bench 322.5 paused

*dead 445

So obviously I think Sheiko is a great way to train...not perfect but

neither is any other system....all systems work out to be some sort

of compromise......it is said that some lifters respond better to

volume..some to intensity....maybe that is why some like Sheiko and

some like Westside.....but IMO most Western lifters have never really

tried high volume...or if they did they jumped in too deep at first

and didnt have a proper understanding....for example trying to do

high volume AND high intensity and trying to keep it going to too

long without deloading

A side note...and no offense is meant but in the interest of the

truth I must say it.....I think the sheiko is too " complicated " for

the average western lifter...lets be honest, the average lifter

doesn't even keep a log...he isnt going to plan out a whole cycle or

calculate percentages and he just doesnt understand concepts deeper

than " no pain no gain " ....most are just way too macho to be seen

using only 80% of their max for weeks at a time.....I think that is

one reason why so many follow the 'linear periodization'....it is way

dumbed down, you punch in one number and your next 12 weeks are

planned out for you (with super low volume by the way...tsk tsk).

Btw, I am 38 years old and liftetime drug free

I am going to use Sheiko again in 2006......right now my loose plan

is to do a couple of " mass " phases of my own design to build some

mass and work the weak points (front delts etc)...I will probably

sort of avoid the " big 3 " in these mass phases.

Then I will use one or two sheiko " prep " phases....the first one will

be heavily modified to include more assistance than he normally

uses...it will probably be " half sheiko/half continued mass

phase " .....the second one will be closer to a regular sheiko prep

phase but I still want to keep at least a little more mass training

than a normal sheiko would have...also of course the volume must

increase this time around since I dont think the beginner phase will

have much kick if I do it again.

Then a Sheiko comp phase or more likely a peaking phase of my own

design

I am heavily into studying the various russian manuals

(verkhoshansky, Medvedev etc..I just ordered the Vorobyev book thru

this supertraining site)....so I am trying to apply those

concepts..which is pretty much what Sheiko does of course.

As always though I am trying to improve upon anything I find....I am

SURE that westside can be improved upon and probably so can

sheiko.....for example I dont think it is ideal to train the " big 3 "

all year round with little assistance work.....in that regard an

interesting idea would be to use something similar to westside as

an " off season " workout...to hit the weaknesses and to build overall

strength while giving the big 3 a rest....then as a comp gets nearer

to use the sheiko to train the big 3 with high volume/specificity.

Of course I wouldnt use the " max every week " approach of

westside...nor would I change the exercises each week....I would use

a variety of reps and keep the exercises for a 3 or 4 week period.

I think there are limitless possibilities to explore as long as one

understands the spirit behind the particular systems.....but I would

do each system as it is written first....like I did with the Sheiko

phases...I didnt really modify them at first...but then later one

should experiment.

Or as Stravinsky supposedly said " good composers borrow...great

composers steal "

Randy

Danville, VA

>

> I have a question for any of you who are familiar with the Russian

> powerlifting routines. I know Hobman has used some

variations of

> these routines with success and I have experimented with them

also. My

> experience with the routines is that they always lead to

overtraining

> when used at the percentages recommended but when lowered

considerably

> they can be quite beneficial and have had made some significant

changes

> to my 55 year old body. My question to you is has anyone used them

and

> could you outline your program and results.

>

> Supposedly, the Russians use these methods to develope their elite

> powerlifters. What I have noticed is that they have produced some

> outstanding younger lifters with this type training but I have many

> times competed against their masters lifters and found them to be

not

> nearly on the same level considering the age factor of course.

>

> When I do the routines I do not vary from them in any appreciable

way

> except that I do reduce the percentages and I never do the double

> workouts. I also will use bands and other tweaks for some of the

> training sessions but follow the rep scheme and philosophy of the

> workout. A couple of weeks ago right after a national meet I had

> competed in I had my bodyfat checked and at 186 my bodyfat was

8.7%. I

> am not a bodybuilder and my diet consists of a 40-40-20 % protein,

carb,

> fat ratio of about 2200 calories a day. I dehydrate to competition

wt.

> of 181. My lifts were 560 squat, 360 bench, 650 deadlift. I hope

to

> total 1700 at 181 this year as I have done that at 198.

>

> These routines have made me leaner and given me more stamina. In

the

> past when I tried to use them at full percentages I always got

injured

> or overtrained. I assumed that they were designed for younger

enhanced

> lifters so I cut the percentages back more reasonably for a drug

free

> masters lifter. I then got some significant results. If anyone

else

> can share their experience or research in this area I would be

extremely

> interested. Thanks in advance.

>

> Eddie White

> Blue Springs, Missouri

>

[Guest guest]

I found this message interesting and so I'm going to leap in and hand out my

two cents' worth here.

First of all, it should be noted that anyone starting strength training

after a LONG lay off from the heavier lifting does not have a true 1 rep

maximum lift until tested. Like a newbie they may have difficulty gauging

the percentages of a fixed program and also experience good results from

well, almost ANY program that has some disciplined increases and sets to it.

My first and only coach told me that we tend to as powerlifters have some

very noticeable gains in the first 3 years of our lifting, that after that

period of time it's more difficult to add onto our max lifts. GENERALLY

speaking. There are exceptions, I still get gains on mine and I've been on

the platform 9 years now. I also have NOT significantly changed my

approach, just the weights, and number of sets used at times.

Second, the author of the note I respond to may not have gotten good results

off of Westside due to the more advanced plateau breaking intent of their

programs, and some have told me they did think Westside was somewhat

confusing. He could have contacted the people at Westside and asked for

some clarifications, I've always found them very responsive and helpful to

those using their programs. The volume issues on Westside and the

challenges of using Westside as a drug free athlete too have been remarked

on at great lengths previously as well and Westside people like Dave Tate

have told me they know the programs not to be perfect but always changing,

as they decide what is working for them and what is NOT. The author's

falling of his bench is similar to what I have heard two other powerlifters

to experience locally on Westside, and the chains, bands, boards are not

necessarily going to assist ALL benchers in adding to their max single.

This brings me to the most important point of my response. Mel and I often

discussed programs, fads, in the PL world and other types of training. We

agreed there is NO single perfect program that fits ALL athletes of a type.

Thus the author's good experience with Sheiko vs Westside is an example that

his progress is best and his body responds to that program. Mine happens to

STILL get increases off a very basic periodization, nothing fancy, and yes

it does involve high volume coupled with some good intensity pops as well.

Had someone the ultimate answer, as I have tried other programs over the

years to usually get a fall off, NOT an increase in strength or anything I

need for the platform, then the search would be over and I'd happily invest

$10 US to find the final solution. <grin>. If someone did have the final

solution for everyone on PL training programs, they could charge just that

and make millions!

As far as Western Powerlifters not following measured programs or using

journals of their lifting, I have to say that either I'm the exception or

the rule, I cannot say for everyone else, but I have ALL my lifting programs

and logs for more than 9 years. I also plan out carefully what I expect my

sets and weights used to be for each meet program, and I log the results,

and then review the meet results to determine my next program. All others I

have trained with over the past 9 years have also had written programs,

logged their sets and generally made plans of their meet expectations and

reviewed, reworked programs based on the performance.

Perhaps 23 years ago people did not follow as regimented a program, but I

have to suggest here that the powerlifters who read and contribute at least

to ST have a far better understanding of how to plan our programs and other

means of making our lifting successful than they did 23 years ago? In the

end, we must evaluate what works for us regardless of some stellar progress

others have on a program, and use, amend or discard it. The best lifters

either make greatest use of their brains or have coaches who wisely do it

for them.

I've also been told that over the past 2 years, the eastern lifters have

started paying a great deal more attention to the western routines...perhaps

they now follow an " American " program!

I thank the author for his review of Sheiko. I wish him the best in his PL

career.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

>I am in my first year of powerlifting after about 23 years of off and

> on weightlifting (more or less " bodybuilding " )

>

> I have used the Sheiko " beginner " routine twice now..this one

> http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/sheikotraining1.htm

>

> a quick summary....when I started the year I hadn't benched in a

> while...so my max was an oldddd max of 225x2 done like 7 or 8 years

> ago...I hadnt been near that much in a while.

>

> I had never really deadlifted much....my best was 315x3 (using

> straps) which was really maybe the 3rd or 4th time I ever deadlifted.

>

> I don't remember what my squat was earlier in the year but at the

> beginning of my it was 355.

>

> I did a simple 3x5 program for a couple of months....at the beginn

> ng of may my lifts were

>

> bench 290 touch and go

> squat 355

> dead 375 (June)

>

> In May I started " westside " training....either it was wrong for me or

> I was doing it reallllllyyyyy wrong....my bench totally stalled even

> though it was moving steadily before westside.

>

> Around the middle of sept I stopped westside....I did a bench meet at

> only got 275 paused...so in early Sept my lifts were:

>

> bench 275 paused..best of 290 touch and go (months earlier)

> squat 365

> dead 405

>

> I started my first Sheiko phase on Sept 12th...all in all it was

> about a 6 week cycle.

>

> I did the beginner phase for 3 weeks...then I did 1 week of

> deloading...then one week of peaking for bench...then a week of

> deload leading to a test night....on the test night I bench 315 with

> a pause.

>

> A cool 40 lb paused gain in 6 weeks.

>

> So what do you think my opinion of sheiko is? lol

>

> I didnt " peak " for squat or dead...I worked up to a max on the last

> squat workout and did 375 (small 10lb pr)....of course at that point

> you are probably too worn down to max but I wanted to concentrate on

> bench only so I just maxed to get the squat out of the way.

>

> On the first cycle I didn't max or test deads at all.

>

> So started my second Sheiko cycle I had these starting maxes:

>

> *bench 315 paused

> *squat 375 (in truth it was probably higher since I didnt really max

> properly...if I would have deloading a week and then tested it would

> probably have been higher)

> *dead...estimated 425...I didnt test fo rmax so I estimated

>

>

> I basically just finished my second sheiko phase...I just did the

> beginner one again...obviously the second time thru it the volume

> wasn't nearly as much of a shock to my body.

>

> I did one week of peaking for the squat and about 2.5-3 weeks for the

> bench and dead.

>

> I ended up with these numbers:

>

> *squat 425 (60lbs gained over 2 sheiko phases)

> *bench 322.5 paused

> *dead 445

>

> So obviously I think Sheiko is a great way to train...not perfect but

> neither is any other system....all systems work out to be some sort

> of compromise......it is said that some lifters respond better to

> volume..some to intensity....maybe that is why some like Sheiko and

> some like Westside.....but IMO most Western lifters have never really

> tried high volume...or if they did they jumped in too deep at first

> and didnt have a proper understanding....for example trying to do

> high volume AND high intensity and trying to keep it going to too

> long without deloading

>

> A side note...and no offense is meant but in the interest of the

> truth I must say it.....I think the sheiko is too " complicated " for

> the average western lifter...lets be honest, the average lifter

> doesn't even keep a log...he isnt going to plan out a whole cycle or

> calculate percentages and he just doesnt understand concepts deeper

> than " no pain no gain " ....most are just way too macho to be seen

> using only 80% of their max for weeks at a time.....I think that is

> one reason why so many follow the 'linear periodization'....it is way

> dumbed down, you punch in one number and your next 12 weeks are

> planned out for you (with super low volume by the way...tsk tsk).

>

> Btw, I am 38 years old and liftetime drug free

>

> I am going to use Sheiko again in 2006......right now my loose plan

> is to do a couple of " mass " phases of my own design to build some

> mass and work the weak points (front delts etc)...I will probably

> sort of avoid the " big 3 " in these mass phases.

>

> Then I will use one or two sheiko " prep " phases....the first one will

> be heavily modified to include more assistance than he normally

> uses...it will probably be " half sheiko/half continued mass

> phase " .....the second one will be closer to a regular sheiko prep

> phase but I still want to keep at least a little more mass training

> than a normal sheiko would have...also of course the volume must

> increase this time around since I dont think the beginner phase will

> have much kick if I do it again.

>

> Then a Sheiko comp phase or more likely a peaking phase of my own

> design

>

>

> I am heavily into studying the various russian manuals

> (verkhoshansky, Medvedev etc..I just ordered the Vorobyev book thru

> this supertraining site)....so I am trying to apply those

> concepts..which is pretty much what Sheiko does of course.

>

> As always though I am trying to improve upon anything I find....I am

> SURE that westside can be improved upon and probably so can

> sheiko.....for example I dont think it is ideal to train the " big 3 "

> all year round with little assistance work.....in that regard an

> interesting idea would be to use something similar to westside as

> an " off season " workout...to hit the weaknesses and to build overall

> strength while giving the big 3 a rest....then as a comp gets nearer

> to use the sheiko to train the big 3 with high volume/specificity.

>

> Of course I wouldnt use the " max every week " approach of

> westside...nor would I change the exercises each week....I would use

> a variety of reps and keep the exercises for a 3 or 4 week period.

>

> I think there are limitless possibilities to explore as long as one

> understands the spirit behind the particular systems.....but I would

> do each system as it is written first....like I did with the Sheiko

> phases...I didnt really modify them at first...but then later one

> should experiment.

>

> Or as Stravinsky supposedly said " good composers borrow...great

> composers steal "

>

>

> Randy

> Danville, VA

[Guest guest]

With regards to my previous post.....

You are a beginner and specificity would be better for you with regards to the

powerlifts as you are learning intermuscular coordination. The westside methods

are for advanced lifters. That is why you had such great response from the

sheiko routines.

Damien Chiappini

SPF Training Sytems

Pittsburgh

john_prophet_strength wrote:

I am in my first year of powerlifting after about 23 years of off and

on weightlifting (more or less " bodybuilding " )

I have used the Sheiko " beginner " routine twice now..this one

http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/sheikotraining1.htm

a quick summary....when I started the year I hadn't benched in a

while...so my max was an oldddd max of 225x2 done like 7 or 8 years

ago...I hadnt been near that much in a while.

I had never really deadlifted much....my best was 315x3 (using

straps) which was really maybe the 3rd or 4th time I ever deadlifted.

I don't remember what my squat was earlier in the year but at the

beginning of my it was 355.

I did a simple 3x5 program for a couple of months....at the beginn

ng of may my lifts were

bench 290 touch and go

squat 355

dead 375 (June)

In May I started " westside " training....either it was wrong for me or

I was doing it reallllllyyyyy wrong....my bench totally stalled even

though it was moving steadily before westside.

Around the middle of sept I stopped westside....I did a bench meet at

only got 275 paused...so in early Sept my lifts were:

bench 275 paused..best of 290 touch and go (months earlier)

squat 365

dead 405

I started my first Sheiko phase on Sept 12th...all in all it was

about a 6 week cycle.

I did the beginner phase for 3 weeks...then I did 1 week of

deloading...then one week of peaking for bench...then a week of

deload leading to a test night....on the test night I bench 315 with

a pause.

A cool 40 lb paused gain in 6 weeks.

So what do you think my opinion of sheiko is? lol

I didnt " peak " for squat or dead...I worked up to a max on the last

squat workout and did 375 (small 10lb pr)....of course at that point

you are probably too worn down to max but I wanted to concentrate on

bench only so I just maxed to get the squat out of the way.

On the first cycle I didn't max or test deads at all.

So started my second Sheiko cycle I had these starting maxes:

*bench 315 paused

*squat 375 (in truth it was probably higher since I didnt really max

properly...if I would have deloading a week and then tested it would

probably have been higher)

*dead...estimated 425...I didnt test fo rmax so I estimated

I basically just finished my second sheiko phase...I just did the

beginner one again...obviously the second time thru it the volume

wasn't nearly as much of a shock to my body.

I did one week of peaking for the squat and about 2.5-3 weeks for the

bench and dead.

I ended up with these numbers:

*squat 425 (60lbs gained over 2 sheiko phases)

*bench 322.5 paused

*dead 445

So obviously I think Sheiko is a great way to train...not perfect but

neither is any other system....all systems work out to be some sort

of compromise......it is said that some lifters respond better to

volume..some to intensity....maybe that is why some like Sheiko and

some like Westside.....but IMO most Western lifters have never really

tried high volume...or if they did they jumped in too deep at first

and didnt have a proper understanding....for example trying to do

high volume AND high intensity and trying to keep it going to too

long without deloading

A side note...and no offense is meant but in the interest of the

truth I must say it.....I think the sheiko is too " complicated " for

the average western lifter...lets be honest, the average lifter

doesn't even keep a log...he isnt going to plan out a whole cycle or

calculate percentages and he just doesnt understand concepts deeper

than " no pain no gain " ....most are just way too macho to be seen

using only 80% of their max for weeks at a time.....I think that is

one reason why so many follow the 'linear periodization'....it is way

dumbed down, you punch in one number and your next 12 weeks are

planned out for you (with super low volume by the way...tsk tsk).

Btw, I am 38 years old and liftetime drug free

I am going to use Sheiko again in 2006......right now my loose plan

is to do a couple of " mass " phases of my own design to build some

mass and work the weak points (front delts etc)...I will probably

sort of avoid the " big 3 " in these mass phases.

Then I will use one or two sheiko " prep " phases....the first one will

be heavily modified to include more assistance than he normally

uses...it will probably be " half sheiko/half continued mass

phase " .....the second one will be closer to a regular sheiko prep

phase but I still want to keep at least a little more mass training

than a normal sheiko would have...also of course the volume must

increase this time around since I dont think the beginner phase will

have much kick if I do it again.

Then a Sheiko comp phase or more likely a peaking phase of my own

design

I am heavily into studying the various russian manuals

(verkhoshansky, Medvedev etc..I just ordered the Vorobyev book thru

this supertraining site)....so I am trying to apply those

concepts..which is pretty much what Sheiko does of course.

As always though I am trying to improve upon anything I find....I am

SURE that westside can be improved upon and probably so can

sheiko.....for example I dont think it is ideal to train the " big 3 "

all year round with little assistance work.....in that regard an

interesting idea would be to use something similar to westside as

an " off season " workout...to hit the weaknesses and to build overall

strength while giving the big 3 a rest....then as a comp gets nearer

to use the sheiko to train the big 3 with high volume/specificity.

Of course I wouldnt use the " max every week " approach of

westside...nor would I change the exercises each week....I would use

a variety of reps and keep the exercises for a 3 or 4 week period.

I think there are limitless possibilities to explore as long as one

understands the spirit behind the particular systems.....but I would

do each system as it is written first....like I did with the Sheiko

phases...I didnt really modify them at first...but then later one

should experiment.

Or as Stravinsky supposedly said " good composers borrow...great

composers steal "

Randy

Danville, VA