Re: MS... Steiner... plot thickens

[Guest guest]

I wonder if intracellular bugs aren't necessary for MS, in the

absence of a viral cause (the focus of much MS research has been

viral). It would be interesting to try and relate that to the

pathogenesis of MS, which is somewhat distinct from neuro-Lyme even

though there is reason to think that Lyme sometimes causes MS.

It seems as though brain volume loss and atrophy are common in MS,

common enough that some researchers hope to track progression by

using MRI techniques to closely monitor brain volume.

It also seems as though MS patients have more consistent motor and

sensory nerve problems than those diagnosed with neuroborreliosis.

This could well be a circular thing, where the definitions of MS

just cause people to be slotted into that diagnosis more, especially

in cases where Lyme has gone undetected for a long period.

I think there is an antiviral drug that has helped some MS patients,

but it has other properties so it doesn't establish a viral

pathogenesis.

These really aren't just speculative questions, for someone in my

shoes at least they really directly affect treatment choices. I wish

we knew more!

>

> Also taking silver stain are Pick bodies, found in some cases of

> dementia - related structures seem to exist in Alzheimer's

>

> http://www.binderlab.northwestern.edu/pickbodies.html

>

> Its possible some of Steiner's MS spirochetal l-forms are Pick

> bodies, which apparantly are generally thought to comprise

deranged

> cytoskeletal fibres. There is also a suggestion in print that they

> may be borrelial l-forms. I will be reading PMID 2162145 and some

> other papers and reportin' back.

>

>

> > One of the most interesting papers Ive seen so far is G Steiner

> 1952, an

> > optical histology of active MS lesions, utilising silver stains.

> Few

> > spirochetes were found, but there were very numerous intra- and

> extra-

> > cellular silver-staining bodies (absent from healthy brains and

> antiseptic-

> > treated MS brains) that are decent candidates for

(preponderant)

> > spirochetal l-forms. (Especially in light of MS animal

> transmission

> > studies referenced by Mattmans book ed. 3 - but I'd like to

check

> > whether those studies had negative controls, etc).

> >

> > Some of Steiners pics and utterances can be found in

the " survival

> > under adverse conditions " document on and around page 10. Which

> > also contains a micrograph of ACA from " heterogeneity of Bb in

the

> > skin " :

> >

> > http://www.lymeinfo.net/medical/LDAdverseConditions.pdf

[Guest guest]

- Hello Gentlemen,

This is just an opinion--an educated one, as I am a research

pharmacolgist( until retirement) but I have seen quite a few

spects/pets/ and MRIs' of both Lyme patients, and MS patients, and

the " group that was diagnosed with MS and feels that it is indeed

Lyme disease. "

The MS patients radiologicial studies appear quite different from

those who are diagnosed with lyme disease--much more severe

neurologicial involvement....deeper lesions when taken by *slice*,

ect.

Now, I know much of this can have to do with disease progression--but

that has been taken into consideration on many of these cases

IMHO--The MS patients may represent a more serious neurologicial

envolvement with high, mixed pathogen level infections, including

viremina

CELIENE

In infections , " Schaafsma "

<compucruz@y...> wrote:

>

> I wonder if intracellular bugs aren't necessary for MS, in the

> absence of a viral cause (the focus of much MS research has been

> viral). It would be interesting to try and relate that to the

> pathogenesis of MS, which is somewhat distinct from neuro-Lyme even

> though there is reason to think that Lyme sometimes causes MS.

>

> It seems as though brain volume loss and atrophy are common in MS,

> common enough that some researchers hope to track progression by

> using MRI techniques to closely monitor brain volume.

>

> It also seems as though MS patients have more consistent motor and

> sensory nerve problems than those diagnosed with neuroborreliosis.

> This could well be a circular thing, where the definitions of MS

> just cause people to be slotted into that diagnosis more,

especially

> in cases where Lyme has gone undetected for a long period.

>

> I think there is an antiviral drug that has helped some MS

patients,

> but it has other properties so it doesn't establish a viral

> pathogenesis.

>

> These really aren't just speculative questions, for someone in my

> shoes at least they really directly affect treatment choices. I

wish

> we knew more!

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Also taking silver stain are Pick bodies, found in some cases of

> > dementia - related structures seem to exist in Alzheimer's

> >

> > http://www.binderlab.northwestern.edu/pickbodies.html

> >

> > Its possible some of Steiner's MS spirochetal l-forms are Pick

> > bodies, which apparantly are generally thought to comprise

> deranged

> > cytoskeletal fibres. There is also a suggestion in print that

they

> > may be borrelial l-forms. I will be reading PMID 2162145 and some

> > other papers and reportin' back.

> >

> >

> > > One of the most interesting papers Ive seen so far is G Steiner

> > 1952, an

> > > optical histology of active MS lesions, utilising silver

stains.

> > Few

> > > spirochetes were found, but there were very numerous intra- and

> > extra-

> > > cellular silver-staining bodies (absent from healthy brains and

> > antiseptic-

> > > treated MS brains) that are decent candidates for

> (preponderant)

> > > spirochetal l-forms. (Especially in light of MS animal

> > transmission

> > > studies referenced by Mattmans book ed. 3 - but I'd like to

> check

> > > whether those studies had negative controls, etc).

> > >

> > > Some of Steiners pics and utterances can be found in

> the " survival

> > > under adverse conditions " document on and around page 10.

Which

> > > also contains a micrograph of ACA from " heterogeneity of Bb in

> the

> > > skin " :

> > >

> > > http://www.lymeinfo.net/medical/LDAdverseConditions.pdf