Re: MS... Steiner... Pick body

[Guest guest]

Thanks Celiene, thats most useful to know.

Not that it settles the question re the organisms, Mattman has some

interesting info:

" With improved medium the MPM broth [sic], we have cultured a

spirochete from 38 of 41 [MS-dx'd] spinal fluids. Some individuals

whose diagnosis has been MS are actually Lyme cases. Much research

is needed to determine which serovars cause MS and which are

associated with Lyme " - so apparantly she is able to make some

distinction between Bb and some of the MS spirochetes.

She also has a few refs to work that she says suggests a single

organism, via serological methods (ie, sera from one MS patient

damages organisms isolated from another patient). I'll list these

refs if anyone's interested.

Steiner 52 says his organism is more like Borrelia than Treponema,

and named it Spirocheta myelophthora (myelin-destroyer). Of course B

burgdorferi wasnt discovered then so I guess he was comparing his

organism to B recurrentis, etc. In his '52 paper i think he examined

a single patient who had been in good health, then over a few months

experienced local numbness and paralysis, progressive paralysis, and

death.

As for the Pick body, ultrastrucutrally and serologically, the

(silver-staining) Pick body does not look like an organism, it looks

like what neurologists think it is, which is a tangle of

cytoskeletal fibers. I've seen no reference to its occurence in MS,

but it does prove the principle that strongly silver-staining bodies

like those observed by Steiner need not be microbial, they can be

endogenous. Still, other aspects of Steiners testimony suggest he

was mainly staining microbes - for instance the fact that a full

cline was found from granules to classic spirochetes. I just wish I

could see more of Steiners pics myself - at NLM they have them only

on microfilm which looks like hell - I guess I will need to get the

print copy via some sort of special request.

<ravencat9461@y...> wrote:

>

> - Hello Gentlemen,

>

> This is just an opinion--an educated one, as I am a research

> pharmacolgist( until retirement) but I have seen quite a few

> spects/pets/ and MRIs' of both Lyme patients, and MS patients, and

> the " group that was diagnosed with MS and feels that it is indeed

> Lyme disease. "

>

> The MS patients radiologicial studies appear quite different from

> those who are diagnosed with lyme disease--much more severe

> neurologicial involvement....deeper lesions when taken by *slice*,

> ect.

>

> Now, I know much of this can have to do with disease

progression--but

> that has been taken into consideration on many of these cases

>

> IMHO--The MS patients may represent a more serious neurologicial

> envolvement with high, mixed pathogen level infections, including

> viremina

>

> CELIENE