Re: Cheney Seminar June 18, Irving, TX, USA

[Guest guest]

> > The seminar will focus on the most significant research

breakthrough yet

> > in the area of CFS: this illness that keeps so many of us

confined to

> > beds or sofas for a significant part of each day may actually be

saving

> > our lives. CFS is a compensatory defense mechanism against a

particular

> > kind of heart problem that is extremely difficult to detect

without

> > proper equipment, trained technicians, and a highly

knowledgeable doctor

> > to interpret the data.

Goodness gracious - cognitive impairment, migraines, swollen lymph

glands, immune deficiency, insomnia, suicidality, and zero'd libido

all serve to increase the evolutionary fitness of people with a

certain heart problem? No personal offense to Cheney, but I can

hardly believe my ears.

[Guest guest]

, I don't think he's saying this is an evolutionary mechanism to

increase human fitness, as much as the CFS symptoms serve us by

keeping us on our backs, protecting us from catastrophic results

that come from exacerbating the heart condition. I've always had

this same hunch, that the fatigue and glandular shut down is the

body's design to slow us down in a self preservation maneuver.

My question is, does anyone know what heart condition he's talking

about and if there's any treatment?

I know I've got some kind of strange heart problems that are not

dxd. But I've been assuming it's a result of the infection. Anyone

know what Cheyney's new theory is? I assume he's been investigating

this area rigorously since he has CFS and also recently had a

massive heart attack.

penny

>

>

> > > The seminar will focus on the most significant research

> breakthrough yet

> > > in the area of CFS: this illness that keeps so many of us

> confined to

> > > beds or sofas for a significant part of each day may actually

be

> saving

> > > our lives. CFS is a compensatory defense mechanism against a

> particular

> > > kind of heart problem that is extremely difficult to detect

> without

> > > proper equipment, trained technicians, and a highly

> knowledgeable doctor

> > > to interpret the data.

>

> Goodness gracious - cognitive impairment, migraines, swollen lymph

> glands, immune deficiency, insomnia, suicidality, and zero'd

libido

> all serve to increase the evolutionary fitness of people with a

> certain heart problem? No personal offense to Cheney, but I can

> hardly believe my ears.

[Guest guest]

<pennyhoule@y...> wrote:

> , I don't think he's saying this is an evolutionary mechanism

to

> increase human fitness, as much as the CFS symptoms serve us by

> keeping us on our backs, protecting us from catastrophic results

> that come from exacerbating the heart condition.

But, from a Darwinian perspective, a programmed physiological

response always serves to maximize the reproduction of your genes

(evolutionary fitness) - else that response wouldnt be preserved in

the population.

> I've always had

> this same hunch, that the fatigue and glandular shut down is the

> body's design to slow us down in a self preservation maneuver.

I agree, partly. Alot of the glandular shutdown seems so extreme

that I think it is a fitness-decreasing " down-side " of the more

generally fitness-increasing immune (inflammatory) response. The

malaise and depression, on the other hand, are probably largely

cytokine-mediated, and are probably fitness-increasing when you look

at illness as a whole. They appropriately limit exertion and

risk-taking during illness, which is to our evolutionary advantage

(but in practice, this advantage is probably realized primarily when

people have acute infections).

I feel that if the body wanted to prevent exertion because it

detected compromised cardiac resilliance, it would do so by means

much simpler and better than gross systemic inflammation.

We could be coming to this question from slightly different

perspectives, if you believe the body has a degree of natural wisdom

that can serve our conscious human interests. (Which I think you

mentioned once.) Personally I dont. While I dont believe the

universe is ultimately physical/material, I do personally conclude

(by a combination of intuition and observation) that the body serves

us only Darwinianly (ie serves only our genes) as a mindless

material machine. I guess probably neither of us will or necessarily

should change our minds.

> Anyone

> know what Cheyney's new theory is? I assume he's been

investigating

> this area rigorously since he has CFS and also recently had a

> massive heart attack.

Im sorry to hear hes a sickie - I had never heard that. Was he well

when he began studying CFS?

[Guest guest]

<usenethod@y...> wrote:

> We could be coming to this question from slightly different

> perspectives, if you believe the body has a degree of natural

wisdom

> that can serve our conscious human interests. (Which I think you

> mentioned once.)

Whoops - I think you once said you thought the body had a certain

canniness, but I dont know why I wrote as tho that *necessarily*

meant that it could serve conscious human interests. Sorry if I

misrepresented your view.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think I may have used the word wisdom or intelligence, but I

didn't mean that as a conscious kind of wisdom. I guess what I

really mean is that we don't seem to have the intellectual wisdom to

keep up with or understand how amazingly resilient and capable our

bodies are. The body seems a lot smarter than the brain sometimes.

(Just like bacteria seem a lot " smarter " than we are. :-) I do

believe that our thinking and attitudes can affect our physical

selves. That our physical selves can affect our thinking (I'm more

depressed when I'm sick) and our physical selves affect our physical

selves.

I agree that the systemic and overwhelming symptoms we have seem

like a pretty extreme response to a heart condition. Whenever I hear

anyone say that all our problems are due to one thing, like a

mineral deficiency for example, my radar is immediately activated. I

think that our symptoms are really more like a dominoe kind of

effect, based on something insidious that can affect many different

systems, like an infection. It capitalizes on our weakness, whatever

they may be, either environmental or hereditary, and it activates

the body's natural defenses, whether through a recognizable immune

response, or perhaps through other avenues, like slowing down our

hormones so that we have less energy to exert ourselves.

I don't know what exactly happens when I have the flu, but I do know

that my body does not want to get out of bed. That's a self

protection mechanism. I know someone who was addicted to running,

and decided to run several miles, even though he had the flu. He

just about killed himself. Seriously. He ended up in the hospital.

penny

I'm not sure, but Cheney may have had a heart transplant? I can't

recall, but whatever it was, it was really, really serious.

[Guest guest]

Hi Penny,

I'm sure someone else has answered this by now; I am so late in reading messages. In case no one has answered, Dr. Cheney had a heart transplant in October of 2003.

[infections] Re: Cheney Seminar June 18, Irving, TX, USA

(message snipped.)pennyI'm not sure, but Cheney may have had a heart transplant? I can't recall, but whatever it was, it was really, really serious.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> We really need bacteria - LOTS of em - to start being directly and

> unmistakably demonstrated in these diseases. (Assuming lots of them are in

> fact there, and its not just an idiosyncratic reaction to a very sparse

> infection, which is conceivable but less likely IMO).

Yes, I want that as much as you do. But I think we'll get it a lot faster

if what Cheney says can be demonstrated over and over again: " ...the

disability level of those that were disabled was exactly proportional to the

severity of their " Q " defect--without exception and with precision by virtue

of their most disabling symptom, post-exertional fatigue. "

Maybe, just maybe, doctors and researchers and your Aunt Betty would take

CFS and chronic Lyme and other chronic diseases seriously if it became

widely known that these very sick people have heart failure. Cheney said,

" What this very impressive article (Peckerman's) says is that, without

exception, every disabled CFS patient is in heart failure. "

And if the people who treat patients and dole out research money and write

magazine articles accept heart failure, maybe they'll begin to realize that

bacteria and other pathogens are involved after all and that patients are

not just thinking themselves into these illnesses.

Maybe Cheney's wrong, but I sure hope he's right.

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

Well, I guess it would be good if he's right and that

would lead to the correct amount of attention being

paid to these diseases BUT I don't really want the dx

of heart failure. I have enough systemic dxs already.

Marie

--- Ron <rhbailey@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> > We really need bacteria - LOTS of em - to start

> being directly and

> > unmistakably demonstrated in these diseases.

> (Assuming lots of them are in

> > fact there, and its not just an idiosyncratic

> reaction to a very sparse

> > infection, which is conceivable but less likely

> IMO).

>

> Yes, I want that as much as you do. But I think

> we'll get it a lot faster

> if what Cheney says can be demonstrated over and

> over again: " ...the

> disability level of those that were disabled was

> exactly proportional to the

> severity of their " Q " defect--without exception and

> with precision by virtue

> of their most disabling symptom, post-exertional

> fatigue. "

>

> Maybe, just maybe, doctors and researchers and your

> Aunt Betty would take

> CFS and chronic Lyme and other chronic diseases

> seriously if it became

> widely known that these very sick people have heart

> failure. Cheney said,

> " What this very impressive article (Peckerman's)

> says is that, without

> exception, every disabled CFS patient is in heart

> failure. "

>

> And if the people who treat patients and dole out

> research money and write

> magazine articles accept heart failure, maybe

> they'll begin to realize that

> bacteria and other pathogens are involved after all

> and that patients are

> not just thinking themselves into these illnesses.

>

> Maybe Cheney's wrong, but I sure hope he's right.

>

> Sue ,

> Upstate New York

>

>

>

>

>

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