Re: Mind as medicine

[Guest guest]

> Hopkins Insider: Mind as medicine

>

> (s Hopkins Health Insider) - How to use the power of thought

> to control pain.

Just my thoughts, because I didn't actually read the article, but I

have spent many years reading like articles about mind over matter,

pain, etc.

In my experience with having a painful condition that is progressing

every year, I in the early years did use my mind to ignore the pain. I

say ignore because, that's what I did as a diversion to not think about

it. I was new to having pain, so I had a fresh mind to use to lessen the

pain. But,.....after 17 years of using these alternative methods,

finally 2 years ago I asked for narcotic medicine. WHY? Because my mind

was wore out. The pain had progressed to overwhelm the little strength I

had left to try and think away anything. It's not MY FAULT it's worn

out, but just like any other organ, if you put too much strain on it, it

will eventually break down.

When I was younger [pre-disease], I rarely took even an aspirin if I

got hurt. The only time I did was when I had labor like menstrual

cramps. No way in my teen years did I have the constitution to think

those pains away.

Pain medication as well as anti-depressents, etc. ALL have their side

effects, and long term usuage might damage certain parts of our bodies,

but untreated CHRONIC pain has an adverse affect on it too. The STRESS

alone of enduring it, can cause the body to break down too.

Also, the first line of treatment for Fibromyalgia, and alot of other

illnesses is to put people on anti-depressants, and the side effects I

received from them were far worse than what I've ever experienced with

taking opioids. Besides most the people I've talked with who take

anti-d's, have told me over and over, that it helps them with their

sleep, but it's DONE NOTHING for their pain. Even the people I know who

take them for depression, say it helps with the depression, but NOT THE

PAIN!

One last thing, I think it's very dangerous to impose a treatment or

method on to the general population of sick people, because we all are

so different, and if my mind can't produce a mind over matter mind-set,

then I don't want to be blamed for me staying ill. There's quite a few

assumptions out there that say we are wanting to stay sick, and if only

we would this, or do that, then we'd get well. I wish it was that

simple, but it isn't.

Also IMHO,......Smiles, Jackie

[Guest guest]

Lyn Gottschalk wrote:

>

> From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

>

> Jackie I have to agree....Yesterday, said " you haven't been out of

> that damn bed for 6 weeks, everyone KNOWS being in bed is not good for

> you " ....who is everyone, and where did this idea start?

Hi Lyn,....geeez, I just wish some people would believe us and quit

trying to make us feel so bad for feeling bad. I spent alot of time in

bed in the earlier years of my illnesses, and now I have such an

adversion to going to bed, I purposely avoid it if I can help it. Plus I

am so heavy now, any time I lay in one spot too long it hurts too much,

so I don't enjoy staying in one place very much. So consequently I do

too much, and just feel lousy all the time, where if I rested more I

might feel better.My SIL has Lupus, and she has spent weeks in bed, only

getting up long enough to get something to eat, and go potty. Her Dr.

ordered her to do this, plus she just doesn't have the strength to get

up.

EVERYONE are all the fitness guru's, and PT's who force you to get

moving so you're muscles don't atrophy, and you don't gain extra weight.

you only have arthritis and they

> say exercise is good for arthritis.

Well, if he knew anything about arthritis, he wouldn't say that,

because everything I've read about it says when you are flaring you are

to rest.

Anything they hear is a good excuse for

> using against me, that is why articles like this are dangerous.

> Lyn

I hate that too. Of course as I've stated before my people blame my

illness on my weight. I just found out thru my niece that when she's

been with other members of the family, they have discussed my illness,

and made comments about IF ONLY I'd lose the weight I wouldn't be sick.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, IF they took the time to ask me, I would tell them

the weight came AFTER I got sick. But, some people just like to assume.

Cuddle up, and hopefully you'll be well soon.......Smiles and hugs,

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Jackie I have to agree....Yesterday, said " you haven't been out of

that damn bed for 6 weeks, everyone KNOWS being in bed is not good for

you " ....who is everyone, and where did this idea start? This whole

concept of us taking care of ourselved =being lazy or unmotivated is

another example of the mind over matter. I offered him my doctors phone

number to get the gist on WHY I had been ordered to bed, but of course

he didn't want to call him. I asked if he felt there was anyone who

needed to be bedbound, he said " of course " , they I asked well then why

not me? Because, he said sarcastically, you only have arthritis and they

say exercise is good for arthritis.

I give up.....

Bottom line I am not there to take care of him and the others in the

family and they are pissed off. Anything they hear is a good excuse for

using against me, that is why articles like this are dangerous.

Lyn

~~~~~~~~Laughter Heals...~~~~~~~~

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[Guest guest]

Lyn,

American Indian culture has a very different view of illness, mental

illness, severe illness, etc.

If an Indian is working on a job, or has a family or tribal role, and

become sick or depressed he/she will probably be told by others, and most

probably the boss, to go home & go to bed for as long as needed, and get

treatment. Not only will the job or role be kept for the person

indefinitely, but should they require special attention, help, or

modifications to help them return to functionality they will receive all

possible assistance. And if not able to resume a functional role, they

remain respected community member for whom help will always be available.

Interestingly, none of the rehabilitation legislation applies

to Indians living in tribal reservations, but public benefits are available

for them. But they have a better concept of human concern, respect &

" rehabilitation " than the rest of us.

Ken

At 02:57 AM 11/15/98 -0600, you wrote:

>From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

>

>Jackie I have to agree....Yesterday, said " you haven't been out of

>that damn bed for 6 weeks, everyone KNOWS being in bed is not good for

>you " ....who is everyone, and where did this idea start? This whole

>concept of us taking care of ourselved =being lazy or unmotivated is

>another example of the mind over matter. I offered him my doctors phone

>number to get the gist on WHY I had been ordered to bed, but of course

>he didn't want to call him. I asked if he felt there was anyone who

>needed to be bedbound, he said " of course " , they I asked well then why

>not me? Because, he said sarcastically, you only have arthritis and they

>say exercise is good for arthritis.

>I give up.....

>Bottom line I am not there to take care of him and the others in the

>family and they are pissed off. Anything they hear is a good excuse for

>using against me, that is why articles like this are dangerous.

>Lyn

>

>~~~~~~~~Laughter Heals...~~~~~~~~

>

>Homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/spiritcir/lynmari/index.html

>ArthritisWarriors: http://onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/rheumathritis

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>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

:

: Ruthie, my above statement was a generalization, I didn't mean that I

:thought anyone here was trying to do that. My point was, over the years

:I have been dealing with my pain, many people in my life, including my

:husband have insinuated that if I didn't do their particular treatments,

:supplements, meds. etc, then I really didn't want to be well. I think

:most treatments have valid results for some people, but it has been my

:experience that they might not work for everyone.

Jackie... either I really screwed up when I wrote that post or I'm

misunderstanding your post above! I was AGREEING with you! I even said

that, right from the get-go. I just think that just as we do not want

to all be grouped together neither do those who advocate that one way to

help manage chronic pain is with certain mental/emotional/spiritual

exercises! SOME of these folks actually do understand and have great

compassion.

CUL,

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

Jackie I have to agree....Yesterday, said " you haven't been out of

that damn bed for 6 weeks, everyone KNOWS being in bed is not good for

you " ....who is everyone, and where did this idea start?

=====

I get SO p.o.'d with this crap (excuse me)! I too want to know who THEY

are!! I used to get (note USED TO, I gave up on this " friend " two months

ago) this from a person all the time. He'd call, we'd chat, we were VERY

close (he was my witness when J and I got married), and then he'd start on

me about how I never go out anymore, how come I don't do this or that

anymore, maybe I spend too much time at home, *they* say a person shouldn't

stay in all the time, what do I DO at home all the time anyway? And on and

on. I got to the point where I told him that I was doing what I was doing

when I wanted to do it and because I wanted to do it (or not do it) and it

was really none of his business. This was after a zillion times of trying

to explain things to him, AFTER he'd ask how I was doing and so on. Same

old story, asks how you are but doesn't want to really know. I got to the

point about a year and a half ago where I'd reply with, " Do you REALLY want

to know or should I just say I'm fine and then we'll talk about something

else? " ARRRRRGHHHHH!!!!!!

I love it when you offered to call the Dr. and he backed down. Usual

scenario. My brother got all bent up yesterday when we talked more about

the Fentanyl patches (came up cuz we were talking about medicine costs) and

he found out that there was no immediate plan to " get me off the stuff " . I

explained to him, briefly, about chronic pain patients and opiod receptors

and so on and so forth. He, THANKFULLY, listened and asked intelligent

questions. If he didn't I was going to give him my Dr.'s # and tell him to

call her.

CUL,

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Hey Ruthie I even offered to call the doc myself, then I offered to

email him , but gee.....all of a sudden he didn't want to discuss it.

What just kills me, is that it is perfectly acceptable in his mind for

OTHERS to be in my position, but not me. I am so sick of this crap...I

thoroughly understand why people become hermits!!

By the way everyone, a and I are OK...she ended up laughing...:-)

Laughter Heals!!

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[Guest guest]

Lyn Gottschalk wrote:

>

> From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

>

> Hey Ruthie I even offered to call the doc myself, then I offered to

> email him , but gee.....all of a sudden he didn't want to discuss it.

> What just kills me, is that it is perfectly acceptable in his mind for

> OTHERS to be in my position, but not me. I am so sick of this crap...I

> thoroughly understand why people become hermits!!

> By the way everyone, a and I are OK...she ended up laughing...:-)

>

Hi,......whew, I'm glad everythings ok with Lyn and a, PAULA,

please don't go into the lurking mode, everybody's opinions are valid

here, and we have a saying in my family that goes like this: WE AGREE TO

DISAGREE! That way everyone can have his say, and there are no hurt

feelings.

Too bad someone doesn't think up a way to build a keyboard with an

" inflection " button, LOL,.......I know when I write some things, I'm

meaning it one way, but yet it's hard to convey that in print.

Anyhow, I wanted to add to what Lyn has been saying about other people's

opinion of us, and why they just can't seem to understand why we do or

don't do the things we do, or don't do. [geez, did that make sense?? ]

EVERYBODY has an opinion to what will help us. Most people have no clue

to what we go through unless they've experienced something similar.

Just recently my niece asked me for an interview for her assignment in

nursing school. She had to interview someone with a chronic illness.

After we were done, she said: " Gosh Aunt Jackie do other people in our

family know what you have been going through all these years " ?

I found the statement a little amusing, but mostly sad, because Yes,

others know, but they doubt whatever I have is very serious, and if I

would only lose the weight [same song you've all heard me say before]

then I wouldn't be disabled, or sick all the time. No one has actually

taken the time to sit and ask me specifically what it is that I go thru

every day. When I have tried to tell them, they listen politely, ask no

questions, then when I can see they either don't believe me, or aren't

interested, I CHANGE the subject. [sigh]

Now, here's a differen't scenario. How many of you have spouses that

are developing the same symptoms you are? I'm put into the position to

where I don't know whether to believe my husband is as sick as he acts.

He won't go to the Dr., and get any meds. for his aches and pains, and

will continue to do things to hurt his back, and then I feel I'd better

not ask him for too much because he's already hurting, and I don't want

to make it worse. So, there are so many things that don't get done, or I

don't get to do, because I have no one to help me. He helps, and then he

talks about how stiff, and achey he is, and tired. I keep trying to get

him to go to the Dr., but he just doesn't take the initiative to do it.

Now, if I was too play psychoanalyst,........I might think he is sick

because he really doesn't want to be my caregiver, but is too afraid of

how others would think of him if he didn't do it, so being sick gives

him excuse not to do it, and at the same time play on my sympathies.

OR............He might be breaking down because he's overwhelmed, and

it's putting too much stress on him and he's developing the stress

induced illnesses. [but, then he should go to the DOCTOR!! Right??? ]

OR...........He has what I have, only milder. but then again he still

should go to the Dr. to find out why he feels sick all the time.

This is so frustrating to me because if he has a condition that can be

treated with medicines, he can tolerate them, and he probably would feel

better by taking them.

See the shoe is on the other foot now, and I just don't know what to

think about him. I know he has a bad lower back that acts up if he

strains it, and he does have clinical depression, but my main

objections, is why doesn't he get help?

I DUNNO...........???

Perplexing smiles from, Jackie

[Guest guest]

Ruthie Cunliffe wrote:

>

> I get SO p.o.'d with this crap (excuse me)! I too want to know who THEY

> are!!

THEY ARE: the magazines that run articles about different treatments

that help such and such illnesses.........

THEY ARE: News reports that have a HEALTH LINE [ya know it must be true,

'cause it's on TV!]

THEY ARE: people who are in professional fields who have done research,

and come up with theories that should work because on paper it does.

THEY ARE: health gurus, psychotherapists, physical therapists, etc. that

lump people into the same catagories, and then pass it off as the

required treatments because it's worked for a small percentage of

people.

THEY ARE: everybody who has a little bit of knowledge about a certain

subject that passes themselves off as knowing everything there is to

know about it, and tells you what you should be doing, because after all

they've read................etc. etc.

That's who THEY ARE! LOL.......... <G> We are living in the age of

technology and information. You can't pick up a newspaper, magazine or

turn TV on without getting inudated with something that has to do with

our health. The sad part is most people just blindly believe it, and

then it becomes fact.

Smiles, Jackie

[Guest guest]

> :

>

> : Ruthie, my above statement was a generalization, I didn't mean that I

> :thought anyone here was trying to do that.

>Ruthie Cunliffe wrote:

>

>

>

> Jackie... either I really screwed up when I wrote that post or I'm

> misunderstanding your post above! I was AGREEING with you! I even said

> that, right from the get-go. I just think that just as we do not want

> to all be grouped together neither do those who advocate that one way to

> help manage chronic pain is with certain mental/emotional/spiritual

> exercises! SOME of these folks actually do understand and have great

> compassion.

Naw,.....you didn't screw up, I think everyone here is trying to say

the same things, but in my case it might not be coming across as well as

I'm thinking it. I've noticed that I've had trouble getting the thoughts

out of my head onto paper to convey exactly what and how I was thinking.

Not a good thing to happen for someone who wants to write magazine

articles. Geesh.........do they have technology yet that can suck your

thoughts out, and that can produce the correct interpretations?

LOL........

Smiles and hugs, Jackie

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

Hasn't it been your experience that MOST men have to be dragged, pushed or

pulled

to the Dr.? It has been that way in my family. My brother almost died from a

kidney infection because " he was in between insurances " ...if I had not literally

forced him to hospital and got him treated, he could have died. He used to

mainline cocaine, and has ruined his heart, liver and kidneys, yet he refuses to

follow up w/ cardiologist, or go to doc regularly. Talk about " drowning in the

river of denial " ....just keeps drinking (even w/ cirrhosis dx) and smoking like

a

fiend. Ex was the same way. He died one year after he retired. Had a friend

that

I was trying to help that always had to go feet first. Sometimes I think it is

a

" macho " thing, and sometimes I think they are afraid of docs, or afraid of

admitting that they have probs.

Just my opinion.

Diane

Jackie wrote:

>

>

> Lyn Gottschalk wrote:

> >

> > From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

> >

> > Hey Ruthie I even offered to call the doc myself, then I offered to

> > email him , but gee.....all of a sudden he didn't want to discuss it.

> > What just kills me, is that it is perfectly acceptable in his mind for

> > OTHERS to be in my position, but not me. I am so sick of this crap...I

> > thoroughly understand why people become hermits!!

> > By the way everyone, a and I are OK...she ended up laughing...:-)

> >

>

> Hi,......whew, I'm glad everythings ok with Lyn and a, PAULA,

> please don't go into the lurking mode, everybody's opinions are valid

> here, and we have a saying in my family that goes like this: WE AGREE TO

> DISAGREE! That way everyone can have his say, and there are no hurt

> feelings.

> Too bad someone doesn't think up a way to build a keyboard with an

> " inflection " button, LOL,.......I know when I write some things, I'm

> meaning it one way, but yet it's hard to convey that in print.

> Anyhow, I wanted to add to what Lyn has been saying about other people's

> opinion of us, and why they just can't seem to understand why we do or

> don't do the things we do, or don't do. [geez, did that make sense?? ]

> EVERYBODY has an opinion to what will help us. Most people have no

clue

> to what we go through unless they've experienced something similar.

> Just recently my niece asked me for an interview for her assignment in

> nursing school. She had to interview someone with a chronic illness.

> After we were done, she said: " Gosh Aunt Jackie do other people in our

> family know what you have been going through all these years " ?

> I found the statement a little amusing, but mostly sad, because Yes,

> others know, but they doubt whatever I have is very serious, and if I

> would only lose the weight [same song you've all heard me say before]

> then I wouldn't be disabled, or sick all the time. No one has actually

> taken the time to sit and ask me specifically what it is that I go thru

> every day. When I have tried to tell them, they listen politely, ask no

> questions, then when I can see they either don't believe me, or aren't

> interested, I CHANGE the subject. [sigh]

> Now, here's a differen't scenario. How many of you have spouses that

> are developing the same symptoms you are? I'm put into the position to

> where I don't know whether to believe my husband is as sick as he acts.

> He won't go to the Dr., and get any meds. for his aches and pains, and

> will continue to do things to hurt his back, and then I feel I'd better

> not ask him for too much because he's already hurting, and I don't want

> to make it worse. So, there are so many things that don't get done, or I

> don't get to do, because I have no one to help me. He helps, and then he

> talks about how stiff, and achey he is, and tired. I keep trying to get

> him to go to the Dr., but he just doesn't take the initiative to do it.

> Now, if I was too play psychoanalyst,........I might think he is sick

> because he really doesn't want to be my caregiver, but is too afraid of

> how others would think of him if he didn't do it, so being sick gives

> him excuse not to do it, and at the same time play on my sympathies.

> OR............He might be breaking down because he's overwhelmed, and

> it's putting too much stress on him and he's developing the stress

> induced illnesses. [but, then he should go to the DOCTOR!! Right??? ]

> OR...........He has what I have, only milder. but then again he still

> should go to the Dr. to find out why he feels sick all the time.

> This is so frustrating to me because if he has a condition that can be

> treated with medicines, he can tolerate them, and he probably would feel

> better by taking them.

>

> See the shoe is on the other foot now, and I just don't know what to

> think about him. I know he has a bad lower back that acts up if he

> strains it, and he does have clinical depression, but my main

> objections, is why doesn't he get help?

> I DUNNO...........???

> Perplexing smiles from, Jackie

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

:

:See the shoe is on the other foot now, and I just don't know what to

:think about him. I know he has a bad lower back that acts up if he

:strains it, and he does have clinical depression, but my main

:objections, is why doesn't he get help?

:I DUNNO...........???

Have you asked him why he won't go to the doctor? I mean, ask him when

you're both in a mellow mood, haven't been talking about health problems or

ANY problems, and are feeling close. Tell him you're awfully worried about

him because you love him so dearly and you wonder why he won't go to the

doctor.

Perhaps he's scared to death to go to the doctor!

CUL,

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

:

::THEY ARE: the magazines that run articles about different treatments

:that help such and such illnesses.........

:THEY ARE: News reports that have a HEALTH LINE [ya know it must be true,

:'cause it's on TV!]

:

(and so on)

You are SO right Jackie. One of the things that I used to caution friends

and family about when they first got online and all ran to me for help with

it was that there was gobs of MIS-information and outright lies out there

and to not believe everything they read, just like they shouldn't believe

everything they see on TV and read in magazines and newspapers. Of course,

not all of them listened... no surprise there.

THEY are someone like my sister who is a pharmacy tech, has NO training or

schooling in the field (her education is in art, specifically graphic arts),

and has become an authority on all meds. <barf>

CUL,

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

As you point out, we add or change like concepts to suit our needs. It

occurs to me that a lot of the things we " discover " to be relief enhancing

are just ordinary things we all do every day but done a different way. Just

as an example, I get very sore just sleeping. Lying down for hours hurts.

I've tried sleeping sitting up but I always end up lying down. Because of

the pain, if there is even a small amount of noise in the morning, I have

to get up. Unfortunately, some days, I've just not had enough sleep.

Lately, I've taken to getting up and checking for email or some such

activity. When I start yawning again or just can't keep my eyes open, I

have a small pillow I put on my desk on which I just put my head. I cross

my arms on the desk, put the pillow on top and my head on the pillow. My

chair is on casters so I just roll back a little and try to get reasonably

comfortable. I'll often fall back asleep for an hour or so and that's all I

need.

usually gets up at that point and tries to get me to go back to bed !

I don't think she understands the benefit I get from this little nap !

An ordinary thing: sleeping, done in an unusual way ! Works for me. It's

just another example of trying to cope without any additional cost incurred

for specialty items. It just takes a little imagination.

Mike

>

>

> Mike,

>

> Great to hear from you! I'd been wondering where you were.

> EXCELLENT post!

> Some of the things you wrote about I've discovered and some I've

> even used

> with one degree or another of success. I've found a method during

> meditation (which BTW I learned solely for help w/chronic pain and I

> practice in a very non-traditional manner) where I can 'put to

> sleep' parts

> of my body, parts that hurt and parts that don't. I call it a

> mini vacation

> from pain.

>

> I loved the one about the TENS unit. I like the relief I get when I take

> the thing off after having it on for too long.

>

> Take care,

> Ruthie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Mike, I feel asleep the other day, online, with my cup of coffee

balanced on my chest,(covers around it) holding a pen in hand and a

notebook on my lap. Didn't spill a drop...until I woke up looked at the

cup and started laughing!! My little cat naps are wonderful things

too...usually!!

Lyn

Laughter Heals!!

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[Guest guest]

Jackie, Diane's commune sounds better all the time doesn't it. Think we

could get someone to do all the physical work in exchange for free rent?

Hmmmmm.......

Lyn

[Guest guest]

Trying to sleep has been torture for me, too, Mike. Some nights just

don't even try. Have been getting better results recently since trying

flexeril again. It helps with the inflamed tendons/bursitis/etc. Ray

----------------------------------------------------

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For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

Ray in Virginia

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Trying to sleep has been torture for me, too, Mike. Some nights just

> don't even try. Have been getting better results recently since trying

> flexeril again. It helps with the inflamed tendons/bursitis/etc. Ray

Flexeril, there's one drug that does absolutely nothing for me. Right now

I'm on Toredol, Prevacid, Elavil and Tylenol 3 and that seems to help but

like you nightime has always been a pain.

Mike

[Guest guest]

RE sleeping. I have finally resigned myself to the fact that I will not

be sleeping until I simply, practically pass out from exhaustion. I have

long long periods without sleep and then crash for 12-14 hours. Isn't

good for thebody, I know,

but whats a person to do when you can't sleep from pain?

Lyn

~~~~~~~~~Laughter Heals~~~~~~~~~~

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[Guest guest]

Mike, I built up a tolerance to flexeril. They switched me to zanaflax

and oh my goodness what a difference. Half a pill and I zone! Doesn't

get me to sleep, but helps with the muscle pain tremendously. A real

life saver..might want to check it out.

Lyn

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[Guest guest]

Lyn,

You are so right about drug induced sleep. It sucks. I wake up with a

hangover feeling like I haven't slept at all. My belief is that you

will sleep when good and tired. If you just lay there and rest, it

helps alot. It may not be good for your body, but neither is our

diseases. The doctor told me that as long as I rest, it won't do my

body harm. What does he know anyway. FIND A BETTER DRUG!!! I AM A

SLEEP DEPRIVED MANIAC!

Lyn Gottschalk wrote:

>

> From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

>

> Mike, this is was people always ask me about. " Well why don't you just

> take enough meds to put you to sleep? " Answer is what you said, I find

> that drug induced sleep does not make me feel rested.

> I have done the falling asleep in from others routine also..that's what

> got me in trouble with family ....they thought this indicated drug

> problems!! Does no good to try and explain.

> Lyn

>

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>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Actually the stuff I take now works pretty well _if_ I always stick to the

same way of taking it. It's really weird but it's actually " time based " ! I

have supper, immediately after that I take the Elavil ( 100 mg) , 20

minutes after I take a Tylenol 3 and an hour after I take the Prevacid.

Around 9 pm, a " hammer " drops out of the sky and thumps me on the head ! My

speech gets slurred, my brain goes numb and if I go to bed right away, I

fall asleep within 5 minutes.

Every time I've strayed from this routine, I've gotten all screwed up.

That's how there are times when I'm up all night and sleep all day. Takes

me about a week to get things straight again. The only problem with the

routine is that I get drug induced sleep instead of natural sleep and I

never feel really rested but I can function for the most part. On the other

hand the same routine is great for getting rid of unwanted guests !

Something very weird and amusing happens when you suddenly keel over and

snore in their face ! Most of our friends now know that it's the signal to

" go away " !

Mike

> From: lyn55@... (Lyn Gottschalk)

>

> Mike, I built up a tolerance to flexeril. They switched me to zanaflax

> and oh my goodness what a difference. Half a pill and I zone! Doesn't

> get me to sleep, but helps with the muscle pain tremendously. A real

> life saver..might want to check it out.

> Lyn

>

[Guest guest]

Ya, but a everything seems funnier when you are sleep deprived, and

at least WE think we are funnier too!! LOL!

Lyn

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[Guest guest]

:

:situation, and I show no signs of being depressed. So, I don't know how

:an anti-depressant will make me feel better, except to cause me not to

:care if my situation is changed or not. It might help with my perception

:of pain if it was my pain that was causing my depression, but it's more

:from what I can't do because of the pain. I still hold strong to the

:belief that some people get relief because they do have a chemical

:imbalance that causes them to not be able to deal with pain.

:Anti-depressants corrects that.

Chemical imbalance, the phrase that is used for many things, is what is

helped with the SSRI type anti depressants. To keep the serotonin active in

your brain longer has been shown to help with the perception of pain. It's

not going to cure your pain. It's not going make it go away. It will, in

most people, change the way they perceive their pain level and that in turn

will help them to feel better overall.

For many chronic pain patients who are not depressed these drugs still help

them because of this. These SSRI drugs have some nasty side effects in some

folks, I was SOLIDLY against them because of the side effects. However,

some of them don't bother some folks and it's all a matter of patience and

trial & error with which one, how much, when to take it, and so on. A LOT of

fiddling but if you can find the right combo it WILL help. The one I'm

trying, for the second time, is newer and doesn't have the nasty side

effects that the older ones do, at least for ME (older ones meaning Prozac,

Paxil, Zoloft). The Serzone is not only a SSRI but also a norepinephrine

(sp?) reuptake inhibitor. They've found that norepinephrine also helps

folks so to keep it active longer is a positive thing.

I loved the 5-HTP which was not a SSRI but instead helped the body to create

more serotonin and get it into the brain better. However since it is not

overseen by anyone as to what is actually put into the capsules I was buying

OTC or mail order, and I read a couple negative reports about this from the

Mayo Clinic I decided that, FOR ME, it wasn't worth the risk and decided to

give the Serzone another shot but this time be more patient and much more

flexible with the dosage.

Now here's the good stuff, during the time since I started taking the 5-HTP

and then the Serzone my FMS symptoms started to recede. In the past two

months they've disappeared completely!!! I attribute this to the increase

in serotonin activity in my brain. I also no longer need the trazadone I

was taking at night to help me sleep....which was for the FMS.

This started BEFORE I started to have major problems again w/my lower spine

and legs ... mainly after I fell at the end of August. So I can't

attribute the elimination of the FMS pain to the pain meds I'm now taking

for that. I also have NONE of the other FMS symptoms. Yesterday the doc

did another good checkup on the trigger points, I had pain in 18 of the 18

points when I was first dx w/FMS a little over 2 yrs. ago.

Perhaps if I wasn't using the Serzone my pain level would be even higher

than it is now! I know that the depression would be present because I'm in

more pain than I have been in since before my surgery, probably even higher

than then (which was a little over 9 yrs. ago). I've also had to face this

stuff w/all the re-evaluation, visits to the doctors, the tests, more to

come and more visits to come, and the brace. I KNOW that all that would

have me down and out! I also know that my anxiety level would be mucho

higher. I just GOTTA attribute it all to the Serzone. I'm glad I was

patient with it, willing to give it another go, bite through some of the

side effects that are now wearing off, and fuss with changing doses and

when/how I take it.

I suppose I sound like an ad for this stuff, eh?? :-) I think it's only

because a year ago I would have been yelling my fool head off that this

stuff doesn't do diddly for someone in pain and the side effects STINK.

Once I learned more about how serotonin, and other neurotransmitters, work

and what their job is I got a much clearer picture about why the doctors are

using this stuff with chronic pain patients. One place that I learned a lot

was from a book I bought on 5-HTP. It's titled 5-HTP: The Natural Way to

Overcome Depression, Obesity, and Insomnia by Murray, N. D.

ISBN: 0-553-10784-4 Oh...and my hubby has been using this stuff at a

very low dose and has lost 24 pounds now! The Dr. is thrilled (he's got

diabetes, just set in last year and he needed to lose some weight) and so is

he, and of course I am too. I also noticed when I took it that it decreased

my appetite although that was not my reason for using it. Because I had

some tummy upset I started taking it WITH my meal and really negated any

really USEFUL appetite suppressant but got rid of my tummy upset. Anyway,

even if you've no intention of trying this stuff I did find the book a

useful source of info about serotonin and how it helps us/what it does.

Also lots of good references in the book.

CUL,

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

:

:Flexeril, there's one drug that does absolutely nothing for me. Right now

:I'm on Toredol, Prevacid, Elavil and Tylenol 3 and that seems to help but

:like you nightime has always been a pain.

Flexeril, the drug from hades for me. I had the weirdest, awfulest reaction

to it when I tried it. I had great hopes for it too, I knew several who got

some nice relief from it.

My hubby is taking Prevacid now. He LOVES it. He has acid reflux due to a

defect where he has no flap (don't remember the correct term) at the end of

his esophagus. He was using 800mg of Tagmet but it just about stopped

working for him. I told him I'd read about the new drugs that work better

than Tagmet so he took himself to see our doc and she put him on the

Prevacid. He said he's never felt so good in all his life!

Tylenol 3 don't do a thing for me except send me to the bathroom to return

everything I've ever eaten! :-)

CUL,

Ruthie

====================================

Ruthie Cunliffe K2ZQ

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