Jump to content
RemedySpot.com

RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

News to me that corn and potatoes were on any other continent other than

this New World. They've found the original corn grass in archaeological

sites that South American tribes started from and grew out the earlike parts

to become their corn. The today's potato original stocks are still grown by

Andes tribes. Get messed up on historical times so I can't put Galen,

Hippocrates to Egypt. Do remember a science special where cocaine was found

in either Greek or Egyptian hair analysis. Researcher who found said the

coca plant is indigenous only to South America, appears on no other

continent. Trade between the two continents had to be present then. Was

marijuana too in hair analysis but that was available from an indigenous

species not far away.

Wanita

> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of the

> introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen actually named it

> who would be the one I would pursue reading if interested in old cultures

> and their health problems as he wrote " the book " that was used as law in

> medicine for about 1000 years. He taught Hippocrates. If I remember

> correctly, Egytians were into maize.

>

> Does that mean corn causes diabetes? Not exactly - corn causes high

> glucose/insulin levels because of the type of carbs (i.e. sugars). The

> Irish's high rates of diabetes are linked to their preference for potatoes

> which cause the same high glucose/high insulin levels. Modern bread

because

> of its refining processes, also causes the same high production of

insulin.

> Insulin is about glucose - insulin problems are about glucose which is

all

> about sugar which is all about carbohydrates. But as has pointed

out,

> not all carbs are exactly equal (in the form of simple sugars) and affect

> insulin exactly the same.

>

> The epidemic of diabetes is because the American diet has taken the worst

> all the way around - refined sugar, potatoes, and corn. Yea,

Macs.

>

> High carb and high fat consumption at the same time sends triglyceride

> levels off the charts. That is sufficiently documented which is why I

> question the suggestions of combining the two on the reasoning that

insulin

> production will be minimized.

>

>

> Re: Early Morning Waking

>

>

>

> > Egypt has the first evidence of diabetes. Iirc, it is some

> archeological

> > remnant whose residue indicated ketoacidosis. They considered

> grains to be the

> > most important food, and red meat to be the least valuable. They

> may have been

> > overconsuming carbs, but I suspect wheat was part of their diet? I

> suppose

> > Heidi would know.

> >

> > Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a message dated 1/12/04 8:00:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mhysmith@... writes:

> . I can't remember now where I read

> a few years ago but it was an article by paleontologists studying ancient

> Indian remains. They were challenging the accepted belief that Indians were

> quite healthy and said their review showed that they in fact, were

> unhealthy.

Do you mean American Indians? Price excavated Indian skeletons, and found

pre-Columbian Indians to have superior bone structure and thicker skulls to

post-Columbian Indians, which would seem to indicate corn had been the culprit.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a message dated 1/12/04 8:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> In some of the old books I've read, they do sometimes

> refer to " corn " as in " barleycorn " . So he may have said " corn "

> in the translations, albeit it was probably barley or wheat.

It might help to note that the association of the word " corn " with the maize

plant is purely American, and in " corn " has otherwise referred to all grains

collectively in the English language.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a message dated 1/12/04 10:03:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mhysmith@... writes:

> ***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates of

> insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

> the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

> population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

> caucasian race.

But native americans *aren't*. Even the ones who subsisted on corn only did

so for several hundred years. Hispanics tend to be genetically geared more

for an Inuit diet than a high-carb diet. And the Inuit are a good example of

folks who are geared for a low-carb diet, and do awful on a high-carb diet.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you implying the opposite is true?

> ***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

> additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

> rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

> womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

> she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem has

> already begun.

I'm not sure what you're saying, and I haven't read anything indicating

insulin resistance starts in the womb. Some people, a select group of people,

are

specifically incapable of properly metabolizing fructose. Perhaps fructose is

evil inherently in some way, I'm not sure. But I'm referring to a specific

metabolic disorder. Or, in any case, a specific, genetic, metabolic

characteristic, to avoid value judgments of genetics.

>

> >I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's made

> some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or may

> not

> be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

> high-fructose

> staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could cause

> major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

> of

> carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

>

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

> Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

> sugars actually.

Who ate corn for thousands of years? The north american indians didn't.

Mexican Indians were cultivating half-inch long corn cobs in 1500 AD. I don't

think anyone's been eating corn for " 1000's of years, " and certainly not any

corn that remotely resembles today's corn.

> >And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

> cause

> the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

>

> *** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

> that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

Agreed. Though, perhaps Heidi can clarify, I'm pretty sure that purified

wheat gluten could produce T1 diabetes itself.

>

> **** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

> consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved.

Yes, on a disease-producing diet. That seems rather tangential, or rather

outside the circle.

With

> magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

> will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency.

No, it would be absolutely physically and chemically impossible for magnesium

to bind with calcium, since both are positively charged ions.

Milk has lactose - another

> bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it.

Traditional societies fermented their milk though, and some didn't, like

Swiss kids, who nevertheless had fantastic teeth. They ate plenty of bread and

milk sugar, and I don't think had any signs of diabetes.

I was saying, in the point you're responding to, that modern diets are not

only high-carb, but low-nutrient, compared to traditional diets.

If a person

> is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

> and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium deficiency

> could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

> causing the insulin resistance problems.

That's kind of a far out theory.

1) Magnesium can't bind calcium. It's impossible.

2) According to Ron Rosedale, insulin itself uses magnesium, so the mechanism

by which insulin directly depletes magnesium is established

3) You need to provide some evidence that there is any correlation between

diabetes and milk drinking

4) You need to explain why milk drinkers who are not diabetic and do not have

insulin resistance nevertheless do not suffer from magnesium deficiency.

5) It would be difficult how populations that subsisted on massive amounts of

milk such as the Masai and other such African tribal groups do not have

magnesium deficiency, despite drinking vastly more milk than any American

diabetic

drinks

>

> >Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

> animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin resistance

> on a

> sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

> intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

> for EFAs,

> and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

>

> **** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

> instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

The seafood they traditionally ate, organ meats, liver. Also, oats supply

GLA. They wouldn't get the enzymes much in the diet, but rather the pre-formed

fatty acids.

> So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

> insulin

> resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

> variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

> carbohydrates is.

>

> *** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production of

> insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

No, that isn't clear, because, as pointed out numerous times, there are

high-carb indigenous diets that don't produce insulin resistance. Furthermore,

there are a variety of variables that will prevent insulin resistance, and EFA's

will prevent insulin resistance even when sugar is deliberately fed to rodents

in the amounts that otherwise cause insulin resistance.

Furthermore, without insulin resistance, carbs do *not* secrete too much

insulin. And high insulin levels to not lead to resistance unless they are

*chronically* elevated. The very high insulin levels you see in insulin

resistant

people would not be found in an insulin sensitive person eating the exact same

amount of carbohydrate.

You are right that carbs are involved, but it is far more complex, not black

and white, than you are making it out to be.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

wrote -- << The epidemic of diabetes is because the American diet has taken

the worst all the way around - refined sugar, potatoes, and corn. >>

~~~ and because of the SIZE of the portions served in the US... not sure you

realise the shock to anyone coming to the US for the first time [like I did many

years ago] and seeing how gigantic all food portions are..! EVERYWHERE..!

Dedy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of

>> the introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen

>> actually named it who would be the one I would pursue reading

>> if interested in old cultures and their health problems as he

>> wrote " the book " that was used as law in medicine for about 1000

>> years.

>

>That's not possible. Galen was born in 129 A.D., over 1,000

>years before maize was introduced from the New World.

In some of the old books I've read, they do sometimes

refer to " corn " as in " barleycorn " . So he may have said " corn "

in the translations, albeit it was probably barley or wheat.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

You are shattering my world. I thought I had it figured out that the

Europeans won the war against the Indians by giving him sugar for the first

time and he could not tolerate it. But you are right - it actually makes

more sense why the native Indians would be even more sensitive to refined

sugar, have a higher incidence of diabetes, and why their immune systems

were so vulnerable to European diseases. I can't remember now where I read

a few years ago but it was an article by paleontologists studying ancient

Indian remains. They were challenging the accepted belief that Indians were

quite healthy and said their review showed that they in fact, were

unhealthy.

Corn is now a major crop of Egypt but obviously wouldn't have been before

Columbus' travels.

I also thought Galen had taught everyone. He seems to get a lot of the

credit as does Aretaeus but the following article gives the credit to the

Hindu Susrata for the original diagnosis in 1000 BC.

http://scijou.eou.edu/scijou00/node146.html

On this site, they state the Egyptians had treatment for it dating back to

1500 BC. That apparently included herbs and diet - ignored by the Greeks.

http://www.isensecorp.com/history.htm So there had to be someone before

Susrata.

Re: Early Morning Waking

>

> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of

> the introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen

> actually named it who would be the one I would pursue reading

> if interested in old cultures and their health problems as he

> wrote " the book " that was used as law in medicine for about 1000

> years.

That's not possible. Galen was born in 129 A.D., over 1,000

years before maize was introduced from the New World.

> He taught Hippocrates.

You must mean that Hippocrates taught Galen, at least in the

sense that Galen was a student of Hippocrates' writings, since

Galen was born almost 600 years after Hippocrates.

> If I remember correctly, Egytians were into maize.

Not the ancient Egyptians, since there was no maize in the Old

World at that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>There are other issues to consider. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that

overconsumption of carbs doesn't play a role, especially among people who

aren't

genetically accustomed to eating such a diet.

***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates of

insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

caucasian race.

>But... different carbs, like proteins, can be handled in individual ways.

Corn is relatively high in fructose. Some people can handle a tbsp or

several of glucose without blood sugar disturbances, while having major BG

disturbances

from the same or a lesser amount of high-fructose corn syrup.

***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem has

already begun.

>I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's made

some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or may

not

be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

high-fructose

staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could cause

major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

of

carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

*** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

>And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

cause

the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

*** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

>A third issue is nutrient density. Its clear that certain nutrient

deficiencies, including, but probably not limited to, EFA deficiency and

magnesium

deficiency, play a role in insulin resisntance. It might be that a diet

that is

80% oats but of which the remainder is composed of super-nutrient dense

foods

such as fish heads and livers and shell fish will not cause insulin

resistance,

but a diet that is 80% oats but the remainder of which is muscle meats

might

cause insulin resistance. Since corn is relatively devoid of nutrition,

the

lack of nutrient density in a diet in which corn is a staple might play a

role.

**** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved. With

magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency. Milk has lactose - another

bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it. If a person

is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium deficiency

could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

causing the insulin resistance problems.

>Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin resistance

on a

sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

for EFAs,

and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

**** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

insulin

resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

carbohydrates is.

*** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production of

insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know the asutralian aboriginal has 2 very bad afflictions since us while

folk gave them a " modern improved life " and go tthem with the times.

Diabetes and alcoholism is just rife through the native aboriginal

community.

_____

From: [mailto:mhysmith@...]

Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2004 1:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

>There are other issues to consider. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that

overconsumption of carbs doesn't play a role, especially among people who

aren't

genetically accustomed to eating such a diet.

***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates of

insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

caucasian race.

>But... different carbs, like proteins, can be handled in individual ways.

Corn is relatively high in fructose. Some people can handle a tbsp or

several of glucose without blood sugar disturbances, while having major BG

disturbances

from the same or a lesser amount of high-fructose corn syrup.

***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem has

already begun.

>I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's made

some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or may

not

be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

high-fructose

staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could cause

major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

of

carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

*** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

>And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

cause

the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

*** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

>A third issue is nutrient density. Its clear that certain nutrient

deficiencies, including, but probably not limited to, EFA deficiency and

magnesium

deficiency, play a role in insulin resisntance. It might be that a diet

that is

80% oats but of which the remainder is composed of super-nutrient dense

foods

such as fish heads and livers and shell fish will not cause insulin

resistance,

but a diet that is 80% oats but the remainder of which is muscle meats

might

cause insulin resistance. Since corn is relatively devoid of nutrition,

the

lack of nutrient density in a diet in which corn is a staple might play a

role.

**** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved. With

magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency. Milk has lactose - another

bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it. If a person

is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium deficiency

could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

causing the insulin resistance problems.

>Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin resistance

on a

sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

for EFAs,

and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

**** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

insulin

resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

carbohydrates is.

*** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production of

insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read Price the same as you and went to the same thinking. But in

reconsidering my thought processes, there were many different tribes. Some

were nomadic and followed the buffalo, but other tribes were not. They

cultivated crops, lived in permanent dwellings, etc. The pictures I

remember Sally posting were of Apaches who were nomadic, and also some of

the fiercest fighters down to the end. It would make sense that some of the

tribes were high meat eaters and others not. I know too that some of the

groups, including ones in South America, were cannibals.

Re: Re: Early Morning Waking

In a message dated 1/12/04 8:00:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mhysmith@... writes:

> . I can't remember now where I read

> a few years ago but it was an article by paleontologists studying

ancient

> Indian remains. They were challenging the accepted belief that Indians

were

> quite healthy and said their review showed that they in fact, were

> unhealthy.

Do you mean American Indians? Price excavated Indian skeletons, and found

pre-Columbian Indians to have superior bone structure and thicker skulls

to

post-Columbian Indians, which would seem to indicate corn had been the

culprit.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

After I have been reading today on corn, I'm thinking it may actually be the

other way around. They gave it to the white folk.

RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

>There are other issues to consider. To be clear, I'm not suggesting

that

overconsumption of carbs doesn't play a role, especially among people

who

aren't

genetically accustomed to eating such a diet.

***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates

of

insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

caucasian race.

>But... different carbs, like proteins, can be handled in individual

ways.

Corn is relatively high in fructose. Some people can handle a tbsp or

several of glucose without blood sugar disturbances, while having major BG

disturbances

from the same or a lesser amount of high-fructose corn syrup.

***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem

has

already begun.

>I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's

made

some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or

may

not

be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

high-fructose

staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could

cause

major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

of

carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

*** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

>And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

cause

the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

*** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

>A third issue is nutrient density. Its clear that certain nutrient

deficiencies, including, but probably not limited to, EFA deficiency and

magnesium

deficiency, play a role in insulin resisntance. It might be that a diet

that is

80% oats but of which the remainder is composed of super-nutrient dense

foods

such as fish heads and livers and shell fish will not cause insulin

resistance,

but a diet that is 80% oats but the remainder of which is muscle meats

might

cause insulin resistance. Since corn is relatively devoid of nutrition,

the

lack of nutrient density in a diet in which corn is a staple might play

a

role.

**** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved. With

magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency. Milk has lactose - another

bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it. If a

person

is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium

deficiency

could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

causing the insulin resistance problems.

>Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin

resistance

on a

sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

for EFAs,

and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

**** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

insulin

resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

carbohydrates is.

*** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production

of

insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah ok so what we are thinking is at some point they went from their native

diet to eating lots of corn ect ect

And became unhealthy down the track then whiteman added it to his list of

already bad items ?

_____

From: [mailto:mhysmith@...]

Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2004 1:15 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

,

After I have been reading today on corn, I'm thinking it may actually be the

other way around. They gave it to the white folk.

RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

>There are other issues to consider. To be clear, I'm not suggesting

that

overconsumption of carbs doesn't play a role, especially among people

who

aren't

genetically accustomed to eating such a diet.

***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates

of

insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

caucasian race.

>But... different carbs, like proteins, can be handled in individual

ways.

Corn is relatively high in fructose. Some people can handle a tbsp or

several of glucose without blood sugar disturbances, while having major BG

disturbances

from the same or a lesser amount of high-fructose corn syrup.

***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem

has

already begun.

>I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's

made

some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or

may

not

be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

high-fructose

staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could

cause

major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

of

carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

*** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

>And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

cause

the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

*** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

>A third issue is nutrient density. Its clear that certain nutrient

deficiencies, including, but probably not limited to, EFA deficiency and

magnesium

deficiency, play a role in insulin resisntance. It might be that a diet

that is

80% oats but of which the remainder is composed of super-nutrient dense

foods

such as fish heads and livers and shell fish will not cause insulin

resistance,

but a diet that is 80% oats but the remainder of which is muscle meats

might

cause insulin resistance. Since corn is relatively devoid of nutrition,

the

lack of nutrient density in a diet in which corn is a staple might play

a

role.

**** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved. With

magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency. Milk has lactose - another

bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it. If a

person

is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium

deficiency

could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

causing the insulin resistance problems.

>Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin

resistance

on a

sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

for EFAs,

and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

**** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

insulin

resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

carbohydrates is.

*** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production

of

insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>It might help to note that the association of the word " corn " with the maize

>plant is purely American, and in " corn " has otherwise referred to all grains

>collectively in the English language.

>

>Chris

That's kind of what I meant. Seems they named the Indian's

grain " corn " because that is what they called the European grain.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

>Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

>sugars actually.

Remember awhile back they were talking about Africans that

have less colon cancer, and the thought was that the corn

they ate (truly corn, in this case) was a low-glycemic corn?

They were talking about using the genes from that corn

in rice to make it lower glycemic, or searching for lower-glycemic

natural rice.

Sooo ... yeah, Indians ate corn, and beans, and potatoes, but

likely their corn was not as high-glycemic as the hybrids

used today. Not to mention it wasn't corn syrup.

Also, it seems you can hydrolyse corn starch and

make corn syrup. But what is the yeild? Does ALL the

starch turn into fructose? And if so, at what rate?

Indian corn wasn't terribly sweet, I think, it was more

like popcorn.

And fructose is supposed to NOT be

as high glycemic as other sugars, but nontheless

problematic, at least in the form of corn syrup. But

some cultures ... like the South Seas islanders ...

ate a lot of fruit and nontheless have high rates

of diabetes on " white man food " . If anyone should

be immune to fructose, it would be them, I'd think.

> >And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

>cause

> the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

>

> *** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

>that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

I expect it's a deadly combo. Esp. wheat combined with corn

syrup to make a nice breakfast cereal.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>Agreed. Though, perhaps Heidi can clarify, I'm pretty sure that purified

>wheat gluten could produce T1 diabetes itself.

It absolutely does, in mice and rats, as does casein (but not hydrolyzed

casein, apparently). And in some percentage

of T1 kids the " diabetic antibodies " (the ones that destroy

the pancreas) go away on a GF diet. It's highly genetically linked

though ... if there were any of that gene in the isolated Swiss

Alps I'd guess it died out a long time ago with all that bread and milk.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

wrote:

>***What I read on corn says its cultivation dates back over 3000 years in

>the Americans - that's north and south. No one said anyone subsisted on corn

>only.  It was introduced to Europe by Columbus. Do a search and read on it.

>I stood corrected already.  It's your turn.

Fair enough, I misread my source. They'd managed to turn the half-inch corn

cobs into six-inch corn cobs by 1500 AD, but had been cultivating them longer.

According to a quick Google search, you appear to be right that it's been

cultivated in MesoAmerica for thousands of years.

However, as regards to American Indians not of Mexican ancestry, it wasn't.

Corn arrived in Eastern " US " Indians in 200 AD, but was not a significant crop

until 900 AD. (Diamon, _Guns Germs and Steel_) Even then, we're probably

talking the half-inch corn cobs that had to be bred over time into what we now

have. Since Price noticed a major decline in health of the skeletons he

excavated around the time that corn was becoming a major crop into the main

staple, I

suspect they are directly related.

The same might go for Mesoamerica-- half-inch corn cobs may have been

providing a less concentrated source of sugar as a smaller portion of the diet.

  ***I think it would a logical deduction that hispanics current diet is not

suiting them too well.  But where do you get that Hispanics are genetically

" geared " the same as the Inuits?  Is there anything to substantiate this on

other than their higher rates of diabetes and some opinions blaming genes

that no one has identified?

Hmm... you know what, I have no idea. I read them lumped in with Inuits just

yesterday, but I honestly know nothing about hispanic indigenous diets.

Although, I doubt there is a monolithic indigenous hispanic diet by any means.

  > Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you implying the opposite is true?

   ***Yes, that is what I am implying.

Well, Native Americans are NOT traditional high-carbers, nor are they

traditional corn-eaters, but have been doing so for about a thousand years, and

as

the main staple, I'd guess less, and at that, only *some* NA groups. I'd be

interested to see rates of Mexican Americans versus American Indians with

diabetes, although the Spanish ancestry mixed with the former might cause some

problems evaluating it.

>  ***Can you substantiate that some people cannot properly metabolize

>fructose but others can without using insulin resistant people to prove your

>point.

Not at the moment. There is a large and fantastic supplement on fructose in

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1993; 58 (supplement)

The article I read was in there, and I thought I'd copied it and brought it

home, but apparently did so for several other articles. I might be going out

in the area today or tomorrow, if so, I'll try to stop by UMass and retrieve

the article. AJCN has some of their stuff free on their website now, but I

don't think it goes back to 1993.

Heidi's mentioned fructose intolerance before. If that means an immune

reaction, it's something different. If it means dismetabolism, she might be

able

to provide some information on it.

>> Or, in any case, a specific, genetic, metabolic

>>  characteristic, to avoid value judgments of genetics.

>***Where is the gene in diabetes II?  It could be worth a noble prize

>because the best of the best have failed to find it.

As I'm sure you know, all proteins are coded for by genes, some genes

regulate their production, and many phenotypic expressions are contributed to p

artially by numerous genes. I already mentioned a possible mechanism by which

genetic differences could lead to problems metabolizing carbs-- e.g., different

proprtion of insulin and adrenalin receptors on fat cells.

>  ***Sudden dramatic changes in the porportional balance of intake in a

>person's diet will cause metabolic disruption to anyone.   Some one who has

>been eating high carb who suddenly cuts them will most definitely feel it

>and vice versa.  That is because of the changes caused to ones metabolism.

>All other things normal, the body will restabalize or die trying.

I should have said " a people " rather than " people. " I didn't mean an

individual-- I meant a genetic pool that had never selected for people capable

of

metabolizing significnat amounts of fructose, could have a genetic inability to

metabolize a high-fructose diet.

For whatever reason, some people react with blood sugar problems to specific

kinds of sugar, and not to others. I don't know why, but it would appear to

have some genetic basis.

>  ***The difference in who can tolerate and who cannot tolerate fructose is

>about insulin resistance.  If insulin resistance does not exist, insulin

>will do its job and maintain stable control of blood sugar levels.  It you

>eat excess, insulin will store what is not needed in fat cells.  When there

>are insulin resistant problems, that means it is having difficulty

>controlling those levels.  It may store too much, it may not be able to

>store enough and your blood has excess sugar in it.  This is about one of

>insulins functions or dysfunctions.  I don't think you really understand the

>problem.

I don't think you understand the metabolism of fructose. A large amount of

fructose is never converted to glucose, and fructose does not have a high

glycemic index compared to glucose, because a large amount of it is converted

into

pyruvate, lactate, fat, and cholesterol.

About 50% of fructose is taken up by the liver immediately, and some fraction

is taken up by the kidney, leaving less than half the fructose to affect the

blood. Overall, total conversion of fructose to glucose is about 66%, and

some of it doesn't occur immediately.

Thus, fructose has significantly *less* an affect on insulin, and does not

represent a significant increase in plasma insulin unless accompanies by

glucose.

Now, fructose over time DOES lead to insulin resistance. BUT, it is clearly

*not* due to excessive insulin production, because the replacement of glucose

and even starches with fructose LOWERS the glycemic index and plasma insulin

response! The effect of lowered glucose tolerance is matched by increased

ability to metabolize fructose, and is a great example of how insulin resistance

is not simply a matter of " too much insulin " as you are trying to represent it.

See Mayes, A., " INtermediary Metabolism of Fructose 1-3 " , American

Jounral of Clinical Nutrition, 1993; 58 (supplement): 754S-65S

>  ***What is " purified " wheat gluten?  Are you talking about vital wheat

>gluten?  Let's look at vital - in one tablespoon, there are 2 grams of

>carbs, 1 is fiber (I don't know if that is soluble or insoluble), AND there

>are 6 grams of protein.  So we are talking about a substance that is

>predominantly protein, not carb.   Are you saying that proteins cause

>insulin resistance?

I'm saying it causes T1 diabetes, which would be insufficient insulin.

>    As for now, the following is NIH's explanation of magnesium deficiency

as

>CAUSED by diabetes.  It does not cause it and therefore, certainly is not

>going to cure it, nor prevent it.

>  http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/magn.html#def

It says elevated BG can deplete magnesium. It seems possible that Mg could

be involved in the etiology in some way. But if it isn't, we do *know* that

EFAs are, because EFAs will prevent diabetes in rats, as I said, when diabetes

induction is attempted with sugar diets.

>  ***I seriously doubt there were no signs of diabetes OR other pathologies

>caused by higher carb intake in the Swiss.  I don't drink milk one way of

>the other so I'm not up on the fermentation process or the pastuerization

>process, and what either does to the lactose but I would suspect that would

>be relevant.

Well they weren't fat and Price observed them in perfect health. We can't

know one way or another, but based on Price's observations and pictures, I'd

think the burden of proof would be on the person suggesting they were diabetic.

> More importantly, it is not a particular food that causes

>insulin resistance, it is over consumption of carbohydrates. Which means the

>total of all carbs in all foods a person eats.

Which is clearly a simplistic and inaccurate view of insulin resistance

because

-- when total carbs are equivalent, periodic fasting increases insulin

sensitivity

-- when total sugar is equivalent, a diabetes-producing diet will not produce

diabetes with fish oil supplementation

-- fructose worsens glucose tolerance and insulin resistance over the

long-term when compared to glucose and starch-rich diets, even though much less

" total carbohydrate " is produced from an equivalent amount of fructose as

another

carb

And thank you for clarifying for that I'm not debating a " straw man. "

> > 4) You need to explain why milk drinkers who are not diabetic and do not

>>have

>>insulin resistance nevertheless do not suffer from magnesium deficiency.

> ***How do you know they do not?  Are you familiar with the signs of

>deficiency?

Probably not as much as you are, but diabetics have higher rates of heart

disease, and the Masai have been studied extensively and found not to have heart

disease, and magnesium deficiency is associated with poor skeletal health, and

Price found them to have perfect skeletal health. Moreover, probability

should be considered above possibility. That the Masai suffer from significant

Mg

deficiency at the time studied by Price, Mann, etc, is vastly improbable.

>  ***Did they drink their milk with their Snicker bars or chocolate cake and

>ice cream?

You said the mechanism by which milk causes magneisum deficiency is by

calcium binding the magnesium (which is physically impossible). So how is it

relevant to your point?

  >  >Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

  > animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin

resistance

  > on a

  >  sugar-rich diet,

  ***Oh really?  Can you back that up with respectable scientific studies?

Yes. I don't have a full citation, but the study was conducted at the

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine, Biddeford, ME, last

year.

>> Furthermore, without insulin resistance, carbs do *not* secrete too much

>>  insulin.  And high insulin levels to not lead to resistance unless they

>>are *chronically* elevated.

>  *** carbs do not secret insulin, they cause its secretin.

It's somewhat apparent that that is what I meant.

>  > The very high insulin levels you see in insulin resistant

>>  people would not be found in an insulin sensitive person eating the exact

>>same amount of carbohydrate.

>  ***Now what is the difference in your mind as to insulin resistant and

>insulin sensitive?

An insulin resistant person has high fasting insulin, secretes more insulin

for the same amount of carbs, and their insulin is deficiently effective in

binding to cells and facilitating the transport of glucose.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a message dated 1/13/04 11:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

jaltak@... writes:

> As with many things that are good in their whole forms, I'm sure that the

> processed fructose bears little resemblance to that found naturally in

> fruits .

That's true in the sense that when you eat a piece of whole fruit, you get

much less fructose, and you have fiber and nutrients with it, but the actual

fructose molecule is exactly the same and is metabolised exactly the same. On a

diet high in fruit juice fresh squeezed from fruit, you'd get all the

metabolic changes of a diet high in high fructose corn syrup, or some other

fructose

source.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> But native americans *aren't*. Even the ones who subsisted on corn only

did

so for several hundred years.

***What I read on corn says its cultivation dates back over 3000 years in

the Americans - that's north and south. No one said anyone subsisted on corn

only. It was introduced to Europe by Columbus. Do a search and read on it.

I stood corrected already. It's your turn.

> Hispanics tend to be genetically geared more

for an Inuit diet than a high-carb diet. And the Inuit are a good example

of

folks who are geared for a low-carb diet, and do awful on a high-carb

diet.

***I think it would a logical deduction that hispanics current diet is not

suiting them too well. But where do you get that Hispanics are genetically

" geared " the same as the Inuits? Is there anything to substantiate this on

other than their higher rates of diabetes and some opinions blaming genes

that no one has identified?

> Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you implying the opposite is true?

***Yes, that is what I am implying.

>I'm not sure what you're saying, and I haven't read anything indicating

insulin resistance starts in the womb. Some people, a select group of

people, are

specifically incapable of properly metabolizing fructose. Perhaps

fructose is

evil inherently in some way, I'm not sure. But I'm referring to a

specific

metabolic disorder.

***Why would you think an embryo's metabolism would be different from the

mother. Type the words in for a web search. You'll get enough to read.

http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/465be.htm

***Can you substantiate that some people cannot properly metabolize

fructose but others can without using insulin resistant people to prove your

point.

> Or, in any case, a specific, genetic, metabolic

characteristic, to avoid value judgments of genetics.

***Where is the gene in diabetes II? It could be worth a noble prize

because the best of the best have failed to find it.

>

> >I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's

made

> some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or

may

> not

> be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

> high-fructose

> staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could

cause

> major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the

quantity

> of

> carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

***Sudden dramatic changes in the porportional balance of intake in a

person's diet will cause metabolic disruption to anyone. Some one who has

been eating high carb who suddenly cuts them will most definitely feel it

and vice versa. That is because of the changes caused to ones metabolism.

All other things normal, the body will restabalize or die trying.

***The difference in who can tolerate and who cannot tolerate fructose is

about insulin resistance. If insulin resistance does not exist, insulin

will do its job and maintain stable control of blood sugar levels. It you

eat excess, insulin will store what is not needed in fat cells. When there

are insulin resistant problems, that means it is having difficulty

controlling those levels. It may store too much, it may not be able to

store enough and your blood has excess sugar in it. This is about one of

insulins functions or dysfunctions. I don't think you really understand the

problem.

>

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

> Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

> Who ate corn for thousands of years? The north american indians didn't.

***Again, check your facts.

> Mexican Indians were cultivating half-inch long corn cobs in 1500 AD. I

don't

think anyone's been eating corn for " 1000's of years, " and certainly not

any

corn that remotely resembles today's corn.

***The history books date corn cultivation in the Americas back 3000

years. Maybe the natives grew it for fun?

> >And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

> cause

> the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

>

> *** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher

carbs

> that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

> Agreed. Though, perhaps Heidi can clarify, I'm pretty sure that

purified

wheat gluten could produce T1 diabetes itself.

***What is " purified " wheat gluten? Are you talking about vital wheat

gluten? Let's look at vital - in one tablespoon, there are 2 grams of

carbs, 1 is fiber (I don't know if that is soluble or insoluble), AND there

are 6 grams of protein. So we are talking about a substance that is

predominantly protein, not carb. Are you saying that proteins cause

insulin resistance?

>

> **** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

> consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved.

> Yes, on a disease-producing diet. That seems rather tangential, or

rather

outside the circle.

With

> magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

> will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency.

> No, it would be absolutely physically and chemically impossible for

magnesium

to bind with calcium, since both are positively charged ions.

***I'm too tired right now and cannot find the info I have explaining this

chemical process but I will find it for you another day.

As for now, the following is NIH's explanation of magnesium deficiency as

CAUSED by diabetes. It does not cause it and therefore, certainly is not

going to cure it, nor prevent it.

http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/magn.html#def

" Magnesium and diabetes

Magnesium is important to carbohydrate metabolism. It may influence the

release and activity of insulin, the hormone that helps control blood

glucose levels (15). Elevated blood glucose levels increase the loss of

magnesium in the urine, which in turn lowers blood levels of magnesium

[(14). This explains why low blood levels of magnesium (hypomagnesemia) are

seen in poorly controlled type 1 and type 2 diabetes. "

Traditional societies fermented their milk though, and some didn't, like

Swiss kids, who nevertheless had fantastic teeth. They ate plenty of

bread and

milk sugar, and I don't think had any signs of diabetes.

***I seriously doubt there were no signs of diabetes OR other pathologies

caused by higher carb intake in the Swiss. I don't drink milk one way of

the other so I'm not up on the fermentation process or the pastuerization

process, and what either does to the lactose but I would suspect that would

be relevant. More importantly, it is not a particular food that causes

insulin resistance, it is over consumption of carbohydrates. Which means the

total of all carbs in all foods a person eats.

> I was saying, in the point you're responding to, that modern diets are

not

only high-carb, but low-nutrient, compared to traditional diets.

***Modern diets are higher carb and lower nutrient than traditional which

is why diabetes is occurring at extremely high rates. So what is your

point?

> 3) You need to provide some evidence that there is any correlation

between

diabetes and milk drinking

***If you have yet to see ALL the correlations to sugars at this point,

why should I waste my time.

> 4) You need to explain why milk drinkers who are not diabetic and do not

have

insulin resistance nevertheless do not suffer from magnesium deficiency.

***How do you know they do not? Are you familiar with the signs of

deficiency?

> 5) It would be difficult how populations that subsisted on massive

amounts of

milk such as the Masai and other such African tribal groups do not have

magnesium deficiency, despite drinking vastly more milk than any American

diabetic

drinks

***Did they drink their milk with their Snicker bars or chocolate cake and

ice cream?

> >Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

> animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin

resistance

> on a

> sugar-rich diet,

***Oh really? Can you back that up with respectable scientific studies?

> So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

> insulin

> resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

> variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

> carbohydrates is.

>

***Who was it that said most people would rather believe than know? The

role of carbs has been clearly established in diabetes II.

> No, that isn't clear, because, as pointed out numerous times, there are

high-carb indigenous diets that don't produce insulin resistance.

Furthermore,

there are a variety of variables that will prevent insulin resistance, and

EFA's

will prevent insulin resistance even when sugar is deliberately fed to

rodents

in the amounts that otherwise cause insulin resistance.

***You have yet to produce any society that eats carbs - complex or

simple, at a rate of 250+ net of fiber per day and does not have occurence

of diabetes II or other related pathologies.

> Furthermore, without insulin resistance, carbs do *not* secrete too much

insulin. And high insulin levels to not lead to resistance unless they

are

*chronically* elevated.

*** carbs do not secret insulin, they cause its secretin.

> The very high insulin levels you see in insulin resistant

people would not be found in an insulin sensitive person eating the exact

same

amount of carbohydrate.

***Now what is the difference in your mind as to insulin resistant and

insulin sensitive?

> You are right that carbs are involved, but it is far more complex, not

black

and white, than you are making it out to be.

***No it isn't at all. It's only complicated when you can't see the

forest from all the trees.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heidi,

> Sooo ... yeah, Indians ate corn, and beans, and potatoes, but

> likely their corn was not as high-glycemic as the hybrids

> used today. Not to mention it wasn't corn syrup.

That is precisely the point as to why there was less incidence of diabetes

than now, but they still had diabetes before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As with many things that are good in their whole forms, I'm sure that the

processed fructose bears little resemblance to that found naturally in

fruits .

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

>Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

>sugars actually.

Remember awhile back they were talking about Africans that

have less colon cancer, and the thought was that the corn

they ate (truly corn, in this case) was a low-glycemic corn?

They were talking about using the genes from that corn

in rice to make it lower glycemic, or searching for lower-glycemic

natural rice.

Sooo ... yeah, Indians ate corn, and beans, and potatoes, but

likely their corn was not as high-glycemic as the hybrids

used today. Not to mention it wasn't corn syrup.

Also, it seems you can hydrolyse corn starch and

make corn syrup. But what is the yeild? Does ALL the

starch turn into fructose? And if so, at what rate?

Indian corn wasn't terribly sweet, I think, it was more

like popcorn.

And fructose is supposed to NOT be

as high glycemic as other sugars, but nontheless

problematic, at least in the form of corn syrup. But

some cultures ... like the South Seas islanders ...

ate a lot of fruit and nontheless have high rates

of diabetes on " white man food " . If anyone should

be immune to fructose, it would be them, I'd think.

> >And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

>cause

> the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

>

> *** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

>that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

I expect it's a deadly combo. Esp. wheat combined with corn

syrup to make a nice breakfast cereal.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> ***What is " purified " wheat gluten? Are you talking about vital wheat

>gluten? Let's look at vital - in one tablespoon, there are 2 grams of

>carbs, 1 is fiber (I don't know if that is soluble or insoluble), AND there

>are 6 grams of protein. So we are talking about a substance that is

>predominantly protein, not carb. Are you saying that proteins cause

>insulin resistance?

In the case of wheat gluten and casein, the *immune* reaction

to those proteins has been shown to cause T1 diabetes. It might contribute

to T2 -- the immune reaction messes up the pancreas (and liver

and gall bladder). Which can and does mess up the insulin/cortisol

production, but how exactly that fits in T2 I don't know. It

is not the same issue as " overeating carbs " though.

-- Heidi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in the processed fructose all you are getting is fructose. There are no

other natural ingredients to " buffer " it.

As an example: when amino acids are separated from the whole they work

differently in the body than they do in the whole form.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

In a message dated 1/13/04 11:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

jaltak@... writes:

> As with many things that are good in their whole forms, I'm sure that the

> processed fructose bears little resemblance to that found naturally in

> fruits .

That's true in the sense that when you eat a piece of whole fruit, you get

much less fructose, and you have fiber and nutrients with it, but the actual

fructose molecule is exactly the same and is metabolised exactly the same.

On a

diet high in fruit juice fresh squeezed from fruit, you'd get all the

metabolic changes of a diet high in high fructose corn syrup, or some other

fructose

source.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

Corn and all other grains have been bastardized (love that term, someone

else brought up last week) with hybridization from what they were 1000 years

ago. All true maize of this continent is either a flint or dent. One is

grown for grinding, cornmeal, other for soaking in either lime or hardwood

ashes, outside kernel covering removed, to get hominy, inside kernel. That

dried then ground is grits. The closest to Native American corn seen often

is whats used for animal feed, field, silage corn. Kernels are hard, dry and

not sweet. Even that has been bastardized for more ear quantity, production

and sugar content by the carb crazed world giving corn feeding livestock a

bad name. Want to scream when I see those metal signs next to a field with

the genetically engineering company's name and corn type on it, thinking of

the poor cows getting fed it. Closest maize to sweet corn eaten by Native

Americans is green corn. When the silk is green the kernels weren't hard yet

the green corn was eaten raw or soaked in water then put in fire to steam

cook. Is ceremonial, only done over a few days. Rest allowed to completely

grow for processing and storage to next harvest.

Wanita

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

> Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

> sugars actually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a message dated 1/13/04 5:13:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Don't understand what you mean? Were few written projects when I went to

> school.

Wanita,

This *is* a fantastically witty joke, right? :-)

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hispanic and Native American friend of mine lived in Mexico off and on over

a few years. She lived where they still pretty much got their own food.

Caught fish was the daily meat, chicken was once a week if available, lots

of tortillas, beans, avocado. Surprised when she said there were coconuts

nearby but they weren't eaten much. She went to where they were next time

down and had some. She had read D'Adamo's Eat Right for Your Blood Type. Is

O and focused on meat because of it when there. Predominant blood type of

Hispanics is O. Told her my A was vegetarian to him along with no way. Would

feed her beef when she'd visit. Would be highly difficult to sustain an

Inuit type diet in the South Americas as the land mammals are smaller than

those of the north. Deer for one get smaller the further south the

latitude.Argentina is an exception with beef raising.

> Hispanics tend to be genetically geared more

> for an Inuit diet than a high-carb diet. And the Inuit are a good example

of

> folks who are geared for a low-carb diet, and do awful on a high-carb

diet.

Wanita

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...