Re: Mark Purdey on Mad Cow

[Guest guest]

Not following something here. Can understand dairy cows vs. grazing beef

being more prone to BSE when organophosphate is used in barns for fly

infestation. Don't understand how an even principally barned dairy cow would

be more likely to contract BSE from radioactive metal downpour vs.a beef

grazing outside in it. The dairy cow's diet possibly lacking an essential

nutrient or disadvantaged due to grain feeding may give higher

susceptibility even with less exposure. Does the grazing protect the beef

even though they're more exposed? Anyone remember if it was dairy or beef in

Canada's BSE? Proximity to nuclear plants, waste? IIRC, was all west coast.

Could Chernobyll drift that far?

Wanita

From: " " <karenr@...>

> Email from Mark Purdey, reposted with permission:

>

> CJD etc are basically caused by a rogue radioactive metal that sticks onto

> a normal brain protein, called the prion protein, in place of its normal

> copper co-partner. So this will happen in environments which are

> intoxicated by radioactive metals and where copper deficiency is a

problem.

> If its humans or farmed livestock then exposure to specific types of

> chemical insecticides - that chelate/lock up copper - will produce the

> copper deficiency facet of the disease. The radioactive metals probably

> come via the atmosphere or in the food that has been grown in the

> contaminated areas. - like your BSE cow next to the Hanford nuclear metal

> dump, and our BSE cows being showered in the 1986 chernobyll radioactive

> metal downpour.

>

> So this prion protein looses its normal copper co partner ( that performs

a

> role in the conduction of electromagnetic energy around the brain - light

> and sound ,etc. ) and is then susceptible to binding up with any rogue

> metals - like strontium 90 - that may be present in the brain. The rogue

> metal represents the infectious agent of this disease. eg it gets attached

> to the prion protein in place of copper, so the protein misfolds and

starts

> to initiate a dysfunctional melt down whereever it travels in the brain.

> This initiates chain reactions of free radical damage and CJD ensues.

>

> Other neurodegenerative diseases like alzheimers and parkinsons are much

> the same , but involve different types of metals and different types of

> proteins that get screwed up. There is no infectious agent as such. The

> free radical chain reactions cause the actual degenerative lesions in the

> brain, that is why antioxidants like selenium, copper, zinc, vit C and E,

> are good protectors in moderation.

>

> Best,

>

> mark

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/30/03 12:29:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> This doesn't relate to Mark Purdey, but to my original post

> about whether the downer cow got into the food chain

> or not. Guess what, they actually seem to have used

> that downer cow (after taking a sample to test, so they

> know it was sick) to make hamburger.

>

> Eeeesh. Whether or not mad cow is contagious, the

> idea that they are happy to put cows too sick to walk

> into the food supply just ain't right ...

130,000 downer cows were put into the American food supply last year, which

is a very small percentage of the total-- 39,000,000-- but one seems too many

to me.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Not following something here. Can understand dairy cows vs. grazing beef

>being more prone to BSE when organophosphate is used in barns for fly

>infestation. Don't understand how an even principally barned dairy cow would

>be more likely to contract BSE from radioactive metal downpour vs.a beef

>grazing outside in it. The dairy cow's diet possibly lacking an essential

>nutrient or disadvantaged due to grain feeding may give higher

>susceptibility even with less exposure. Does the grazing protect the beef

>even though they're more exposed? Anyone remember if it was dairy or beef in

>Canada's BSE? Proximity to nuclear plants, waste? IIRC, was all west coast.

>Could Chernobyll drift that far?

>

>Wanita

Mark Purdey's work seems to support several different mechanisms for BSE --

which

may well be the case, it may arise something like cancer (which also arises from

a

rogue protein, this time a DNA protein). LOTS of things cause cancer, and the

immune system is supposed to repress it. But once a cancer gets started, it

can replicate itself. Ditto, lots of things may cause rogue prions. There are

a lot of theories about what causes them in the first place, and pesticides

and radioactive waste both would seem to be good suspects. Viruses might

be suspect too (there is a virus that seems to trigger cervical cancer, for

instance). It seems there is a low level of BSE-like disease in ALL mammals,

however, and maybe there always has been.

The theory is that BSE is started by a rogue protein prion and

then the protein replicates itself. Mark seems to agree on this point, albeit

his mechanism is a little different. The question

is, can the protein jump from animal to animal, and THAT seems to be the

point of contention. Researchers claim they can routinely give BSE to mice

and other animals from infected beef, but others seem to disagree that it

is contagious. The disparity here is interesting and I still haven't found

an explanation.

Now, the disparity in the FAT researchers has been explained pretty

well, and I'm comfortable with it at this point. Haven't found any such

explanation to reconcile the two sides of the prion debate.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Researchers claim they can routinely give BSE to mice

>and other animals from infected beef, but others seem to disagree that it

>is contagious. The disparity here is interesting and I still haven't found

>an explanation.

Heidi - I may not understand your point, but Mark did say the other

day that researchers who inject infected materials directly into the

nerve tissues (brain/spinal cord/etc) of healthy animals are able to

spread the 'disease.' He has no contention with that. -Allan

[Guest guest]

This doesn't relate to Mark Purdey, but to my original post

about whether the downer cow got into the food chain

or not. Guess what, they actually seem to have used

that downer cow (after taking a sample to test, so they

know it was sick) to make hamburger.

Eeeesh. Whether or not mad cow is contagious, the

idea that they are happy to put cows too sick to walk

into the food supply just ain't right ...

-- Heidi

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/national/30ASSE.html?hp

---------------------

It seems almost inevitable that some part of the cow was eaten. It was killed on

Dec. 9, and ground up with about 20 others to make a batch of 10,000 pounds of

hamburger that was shipped to groceries in eight states and Guam, although 80

percent went to Oregon and Washington, the Agriculture Department says.

The diseased cow was not found until Dec. 23, and a recall order was issued.

Dr. Weber, a spokesman for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, said

he thought that, like most ground beef, the batch would have been frozen for

transit. He had heard that 20 percent was found in storage, he said. But he said

of the rest: " I'd hazard a guess that some of it has been consumed. "

[Guest guest]

BTW in this article it also says that the " oral uptake " for mad cow isn't

very good, which was why only 150 people or so got infected in

England even though thousands of BSE infected cows were eaten --

the prions get digested (that's been my theory too, which is why

I'm not avoiding beef, though I think I'm avoiding store bought

burger).

-- Heidi

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/national/30ASSE.html?hp ---------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi, I live in Alberta where the first BSE cow was found in North America.

It was a beef cow. No nuclear plants anywhere near, none in western Canada, I

don't know about the western USA.

There is lots of oil and gas activity, agriculture and forestry here.

We are a long ways from Russia too. : -)

Background radiation should be " normal " levels I would think.

Bruce

P.S. what's IIRC?

----- Original Message -----

From: Wanita Sears

Not following something here. Can understand dairy cows vs. grazing beef

being more prone to BSE when organophosphate is used in barns for fly

infestation. Don't understand how an even principally barned dairy cow would

be more likely to contract BSE from radioactive metal downpour vs.a beef

grazing outside in it. The dairy cow's diet possibly lacking an essential

nutrient or disadvantaged due to grain feeding may give higher

susceptibility even with less exposure. Does the grazing protect the beef

even though they're more exposed? Anyone remember if it was dairy or beef in

Canada's BSE? Proximity to nuclear plants, waste? IIRC, was all west coast.

Could Chernobyll drift that far?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " jafa " <jafasum@...>

> What is a prion protein actually? And how does it become contagious?

Even cancer, which are mutated cells, aren't contagious. How does a

malformed protein become contagious?

As you may know, proteins consist of long chains of amino acids folded

into specific forms. Furthermore, many proteins will not spontaneously

fold into their correct forms, but require guidance from proteins known

as " chaperone proteins. " A prion, according to the generally accepted

theory, is a protein which is misfolded in such a way that it becomes

infectious and causes other molecules of the same type of protein to

misfold in the same way, possibly--and this is where my understanding

gets a bit hazy--through interference with the chaperone proteins or by

acting as a chaperone itself. The word " prion, " by the way, is derived

from " PRoteinaceous Infectious -ON " (the latter being a suffix for units

of things related to heredity).

[Guest guest]

>>Researchers claim they can routinely give BSE to mice

>>and other animals from infected beef, but others seem to disagree that it

>>is contagious. The disparity here is interesting and I still haven't found

>>an explanation.

>

>Heidi - I may not understand your point, but Mark did say the other

>day that researchers who inject infected materials directly into the

>nerve tissues (brain/spinal cord/etc) of healthy animals are able to

>spread the 'disease.' He has no contention with that. -Allan

The contentions I've been hearing are that it isn't

contagious in animal feed. And there was the

question of whether or not it is safe to eat

BSE meat. One side seems to be saying it just isn't

contagious orally ... but the researchers do seem to

be able to make animals sick using oral feeding.

The reason it is an issue is that if it IS

contagious from food, then it is important

to clean up the animal food supply. And

perhaps the people food supply.

However, the researchers are also saying that

it isn't *very* contagious orally ... i.e. they

feel they have proof animals can get it from eating,

but the contagion rate is pretty low, because the

prions get digested.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Network news this AM said cow was born before 1997 when it became law that

animal feed could not contain brain and spinal parts Was 6 1/2 years old so

most exposure she got to possibly contaminated food was 6 months. If food

contamination is the main cause or just what they're looking at then any

cases should be " only " older dairy cows not beef that are usually raised

from 2-4 years. If its orally transmitable is it also genetically to

offspring?

Wanita

> The contentions I've been hearing are that it isn't

> contagious in animal feed.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Bruce. Kind of remembered it was beef unlike dairy in U.S.and U.K.

IIIRC is if I remember correctly. :-) Was there only one case? Does Canada

have any law against use of brain and spinal parts in feed?

Wanita

> Hi, I live in Alberta where the first BSE cow was found in North America.

> It was a beef cow. No nuclear plants anywhere near, none in western

Canada, I don't know about the western USA.

> There is lots of oil and gas activity, agriculture and forestry here.

>

> We are a long ways from Russia too. : -)

> Background radiation should be " normal " levels I would think.

>

> Bruce

>

> P.S. what's IIRC?

[Guest guest]

Wonder if hanging time is relaxed to keep meatcutters busy on cows that are

going just into hamburger or hot dogs. Long enough to get the meat cold for

cutting maybe. That would mean test results aren't back by the time its out

into the food supply. Anyone have the Taubes NY Times article saved

where he bought a beef for a rancher to raise and went to the processing

plant? Looking for how many days in until he had meat back to get legal

hanging time.

Wanita

> This doesn't relate to Mark Purdey, but to my original post

> about whether the downer cow got into the food chain

> or not. Guess what, they actually seem to have used

> that downer cow (after taking a sample to test, so they

> know it was sick) to make hamburger.

>

> Eeeesh. Whether or not mad cow is contagious, the

> idea that they are happy to put cows too sick to walk

> into the food supply just ain't right ...

>

> -- Heidi

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/national/30ASSE.html?hp

> ---------------------

> It seems almost inevitable that some part of the cow was eaten. It was

killed on Dec. 9, and ground up with about 20 others to make a batch of

10,000 pounds of hamburger that was shipped to groceries in eight states and

Guam, although 80 percent went to Oregon and Washington, the Agriculture

Department says.

>

> The diseased cow was not found until Dec. 23, and a recall order was

issued.

>

> Dr. Weber, a spokesman for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association,

said he thought that, like most ground beef, the batch would have been

frozen for transit. He had heard that 20 percent was found in storage, he

said. But he said of the rest: " I'd hazard a guess that some of it has been

consumed. "

>

[Guest guest]

Just heard on the news that the FDA has banned all " downer " cattle from the

food chain.

Not a bad thing at all.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

>>Researchers claim they can routinely give BSE to mice

>>and other animals from infected beef, but others seem to disagree that it

>>is contagious. The disparity here is interesting and I still haven't found

>>an explanation.

>

>Heidi - I may not understand your point, but Mark did say the other

>day that researchers who inject infected materials directly into the

>nerve tissues (brain/spinal cord/etc) of healthy animals are able to

>spread the 'disease.' He has no contention with that. -Allan

The contentions I've been hearing are that it isn't

contagious in animal feed. And there was the

question of whether or not it is safe to eat

BSE meat. One side seems to be saying it just isn't

contagious orally ... but the researchers do seem to

be able to make animals sick using oral feeding.

The reason it is an issue is that if it IS

contagious from food, then it is important

to clean up the animal food supply. And

perhaps the people food supply.

However, the researchers are also saying that

it isn't *very* contagious orally ... i.e. they

feel they have proof animals can get it from eating,

but the contagion rate is pretty low, because the

prions get digested.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Judith-

That is good news, though there are plenty of very sick cows which will

still make it into the food supply.

>Just heard on the news that the FDA has banned all " downer " cattle from the

>food chain.

-

[Guest guest]

No doubt, . But it is a start.

Judith Alta

RE: Mark Purdey on Mad Cow

Judith-

That is good news, though there are plenty of very sick cows which will

still make it into the food supply.

>Just heard on the news that the FDA has banned all " downer " cattle from the

>food chain.

-

[Guest guest]

> Thanks, Bruce. Kind of remembered it was beef unlike dairy in

U.S.and U.K.

> IIIRC is if I remember correctly. :-) Was there only one case? Does

Canada

> have any law against use of brain and spinal parts in feed?

Hello Wanita

What does IIIRC stand for again? I don't quite understand.

Yes, there was only one case in Canada . . . and it didn't even make

it into the food chain . . . not even hamburger or hot dogs!

Yes, there is a law against using brain and spinal parts in feed.

Implementation date was around 1997.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

>Wonder if hanging time is relaxed to keep meatcutters busy on cows that are

>going just into hamburger or hot dogs. Long enough to get the meat cold for

>cutting maybe. That would mean test results aren't back by the time its out

>into the food supply. Anyone have the Taubes NY Times article saved

>where he bought a beef for a rancher to raise and went to the processing

>plant? Looking for how many days in until he had meat back to get legal

>hanging time.

>

>Wanita

The NYTimes article I'm familiar with seems

to be by Pollan, and you can see it here:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/17/cattle1.htm

I didn't see a mention of miniumum hanging

time though. Whenever I've heard it discussed,

the only purpose is for tenderizing, and the cheaper

meat typically isn't aged.

However, if the cow is sick I'd expect the meat

to be quarantined. Likely things go so fast in

the average slaughterhouse ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi All....

It has been widley known for a very long time in cattle circles that Mc's

has always been the end result for cows that were sick or slow or in very bad

shape.

But downers are not to be ground up, but there are downers and then there are

downers, and the difference is who is looking when and where..

Tim

Re: Mark Purdey on Mad Cow

This doesn't relate to Mark Purdey, but to my original post

about whether the downer cow got into the food chain

or not. Guess what, they actually seem to have used

that downer cow (after taking a sample to test, so they

know it was sick) to make hamburger.

Eeeesh. Whether or not mad cow is contagious, the

idea that they are happy to put cows too sick to walk

into the food supply just ain't right ...

-- Heidi

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/national/30ASSE.html?hp

---------------------

It seems almost inevitable that some part of the cow was eaten. It was killed

on Dec. 9, and ground up with about 20 others to make a batch of 10,000 pounds

of hamburger that was shipped to groceries in eight states and Guam, although 80

percent went to Oregon and Washington, the Agriculture Department says.

The diseased cow was not found until Dec. 23, and a recall order was issued.

Dr. Weber, a spokesman for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association,

said he thought that, like most ground beef, the batch would have been frozen

for transit. He had heard that 20 percent was found in storage, he said. But he

said of the rest: " I'd hazard a guess that some of it has been consumed. "

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/04 12:11:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

toyotaokiec@... writes:

> Doesn't the body break proteins apart, then reassemble them into the

> proteins it needs?

Not always. In part, because of digestive deficiencies. The body also

incorporates undenatured proteins intentionally when they can be of use.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/04 3:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, bberg@...

writes:

> By the way, no serious researcher is claiming that anyone who eats meat

> containing BSE prions will always get nvCJD. In the British outbreak,

> there were millions of people potentially exposed to meat from infected

> cows, and fewer than 150 people died. The general consensus seems to be

> that the vast majority of people who consume BSE prions will not develop

> nvCJD.

,

So what is your opinion on Mark Purdy's research? And what is your

estimation of the reason(s) it seems the mainstream is ignoring it?

Chris

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " " <toyotaokiec@...>

> A couple of years ago when I first started reading about BSE, I got

> the idea that the prion proteins are " contagious " primarily because

> of their shape. Their shape influences neighboring proteins to also

> become deformed. There are probably other factors involved

> (nutritional deficiencies/excesses, etc.), but those other factors

> only influence how rapidly the neighboring proteins become malformed

> also.

>

> That said, I have trouble believing that simply eating food

> containing prions can always cause BSE in the consuming animal/person.

>

> Doesn't the body break proteins apart, then reassemble them into the

> proteins it needs?

The body breaks most proteins down, but not all. If all proteins were

broken down in the stomach, then bacterial and viral food poisoning

would be impossible, as would gluten issues. Some proteins are just

harder to break down than others. Particularly if someone has a problem

with producing insufficient stomach acid and protease enzymes and leaky

gut syndrome, it's entirely conceivable that the prions could be

absorbed into the bloodstream. How they make it through the blood-brain

barrier, I don't know, but then, I don't know much about the BBB.

By the way, no serious researcher is claiming that anyone who eats meat

containing BSE prions will always get nvCJD. In the British outbreak,

there were millions of people potentially exposed to meat from infected

cows, and fewer than 150 people died. The general consensus seems to be

that the vast majority of people who consume BSE prions will not develop

nvCJD.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Bee " <beewilder@...>

> You are right on. Also, consider that chemtrails have been dropped

> in many areas in Canada and the US without the public's knowledge or

> okay. Many of the chemtrails are done to experiment on people,

> without their knowledge, others are to control pests or foliage

> problems, others are possibly bioweapons of choice to control over

> population. A lot to think about eh?

Uh huh. And what evidence has led you to this conclusion?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/04 7:20:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> From what I understand, the rate of human CJD

> infection in the UK has not risen above the

> international average rate, ever, despite the increase

> in BSE in cows. I'm afraid I don't have a source for

> this, but the person I heard it from is a source I

> trust and who is well read/researched in these things.

That doesn't seem relevant to me. The question should be whether there has

been an increase *in Britain* of CJD that corresponds to the increase in BSE

with any proportionality.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

My thoughts exactly. I, too, put much more stock in Mark Purdy's theories

and findings than I do in anyone else's claims.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

A couple of years ago when I first started reading about BSE, I got

the idea that the prion proteins are " contagious " primarily because

of their shape. Their shape influences neighboring proteins to also

become deformed. There are probably other factors involved

(nutritional deficiencies/excesses, etc.), but those other factors

only influence how rapidly the neighboring proteins become malformed

also.

That said, I have trouble believing that simply eating food

containing prions can always cause BSE in the consuming animal/person.

Doesn't the body break proteins apart, then reassemble them into the

proteins it needs?

I place a lot of credence in Mark's hypothesis. He has found a

pattern of BSE-like illness among many different animals/people

located in many different locations in the world, with these 3

factors in common:

1. Dietary mineral deficiencies/excesses (e.g., too little copper

along with too much manganese, or too much silver).

2. Above-normal environmental stressors (e.g., more UV light than

normal, more sound pollution--like sonic booms--than normal, etc.).

3. The presence of organophosphate pesticides, many times in

quantities greater than recommended for normal use.

For the past 2 years or so, I have been wondering where the first

American Mad Cow would be found. When it was said to have been found

in Washington state, I was puzzled. But when I found that the locale

also contained many orchards (non-organic, I would assume, since

Washington is such a big producer of apples and other fruit), then I

figured that there is probably a lot of pesticides/fungicide use up

there. I saw an article recently that told about a lady whose son

was born without eyes, simply because she had walked past an orchard

while she was 7 weeks pregnant. The chemical Benlate was

implicated. I think she got $7 million.

It's probably a wonder that they haven't ID'd a Mad Cow up there

before.

Actually, one article I read said that the cow was classified as

a " downer " because she had had trouble calving. I have heard of such

things. Sometimes calving can damage the cow's nerves and prevent

her from being able to stand after giving birth. If you value the

cow, you can suspend her in a " cow hospital " and get her back on her

feet while the damage heals. If you don't value her, you can send

her to the slaughterhouse.

Since the use of organophosphate pesticides on cows is so prevalent,

it's my thinking that more cows have prions than we know. But if

they remain asymptomatic until slaughter, then who would ever know?

Since most beef cattle are raised to slaughter weight as quickly as

possible, most will never make it to the 6-1/2 year age that the

Washington Holstein was when she was slaughtered.

It's my understanding that prions are not found in the meat or fat of

cattle. I plan to continue eating the meat and fat of cattle. I get

too much benefit from including beef in my diet, to consider

eliminating it from my diet.

I also plan to avoid exposure to organophosphate pesticides as much

as possible.

[Guest guest]

>That said, I have trouble believing that simply eating food

>containing prions can always cause BSE in the consuming animal/person.

>

>Doesn't the body break proteins apart, then reassemble them into the

>proteins it needs?

Yes, and it is not easy to get BSE orally. It has been done, it seems,

in the lab with animals, but usually the proteins are digested.

There is some thought that if people are getting it, it may

be from inhaled proteins or ones that get in through

a scratch (much like you catch viruses -- viruses don't make

it through the digestive tract well either). For instance, if you

were cutting up a brain to eat and had a scratch on your hand.

Only 150 people seem to have caught BSE in England, and

thousands of infected cows were thought to have been

eaten.

It isn't very contagious by feed among cows either,

according to the people who say it is contagious by

feed ... only 3 out of 1000 cows got it.

But the " feed " theory and Mark's theories aren't

mutually exclusive at all -- environmental factors

likely create the initial prions, whether or not they

are contagious.

Anyway, it's a good enough reason for me to

pay attention to where my beef comes from.

And a good reason not to use nerve agents

on our pets ... I'm thinking those de-flea drops

are similar to what they were using on the cows.

-- Heidi