Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 will write more later. house full n client hate=[for me] actively, consciously directing ill will to another what differs n can be positive= OUTRAGE! that is a healthy expression. hatred involves revenge n is ruled by neg proc of Scorpio. it always rebounds on the 'hater'- scorpion one of the few creatures capable of suicide - sting itself to death. much more later - ! love, in haste ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 Well, dear Alice, Good post. It is always good to get the definitions in order before any discussion(G). Of course, My definition of Hatred is more in line with OUTRAGE! I never wish ill will on anyone..I have been guilty of wishing they might experience what they dish out in a Karmic sense..but am able, most of the time, to let God's will be done. If you all knew me well..you would understand that it was a very important part of my process, to even admit, that i had buried rage, anger and hatred about past injustices to my being. Hate was an Evil word and not allowed to be felt growing up. To me, 'Hate' was rage and anger..Outrage.So folks, is not sitting in a pool of slim here and she is not trying to be difficult. I am not full of bitterness and thoughts of revenge..only trying to mend a broken heart and spirit. So to clarify it better, let's call it righteous anger. I never felt better, than when i finally let someone have it who deserved it...FINALLY! And Greg, I did not feel poisoned at all...i felt like i had purged an awful beast out of my system and placed it where it needed to go...right into the 'beast' that put it in me...for the last time(G)! Hate is just another opposite...like light and dark...full and empty.Just a bit more 'shadowy'...hence my original post. And folks, please give me a little credit here...I am not stupid.I read all the books and sometimes even gleam a thing or two(G)! I care about you all. I have been guilty of posts in the past that were not well spoken or delivered well enough to even be understood. I just get a bit passionate at times is all. I have not been posting for quite sometime because i knew i had an 'edge' on me that needed sanding down.A beast that needed to roam free for awhile. I just get sick of the 'pat Jungian' answers at times. It does little good until it can be digested at an 'INDIVIDUAL' speed. 'Victims' in this world are not always ready to hear that they brought it on themselves..ESPECIALLY when they did not! They are not always ready to hear that their Love was in VAIN, either. If I ever Love again, in a romantic sense...I'm thinking i would never want to be with a Jungian(G)! I can think of nothing more boring than throwing hooks around and having the 'fish' throw it back out of the 'Water' everytime! Never catching enough to filet.....hahaha....and roast...or stuff and mount...or tenderly prepare and enjoy!(In jest).... Take Care, IonaDove@... wrote: > > will write more later. house full n client > > hate=[for me] actively, consciously directing ill will to another > > what differs n can be positive= OUTRAGE! that is a healthy expression. hatred > involves revenge n is ruled by neg proc of Scorpio. it always rebounds on the > 'hater'- scorpion one of the few creatures capable of suicide - sting itself > to death. > > much more later - ! > > love, in haste > > ao > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! > 1. Fill in the brief application > 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds > 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/975/6/_/642966/_/955200809/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 In message , " K. Armstrong " writes >I >just get sick of the 'pat Jungian' answers at times. It does little good >until it can be digested at an 'INDIVIDUAL' speed. 'Victims' in this >world are not always ready to hear that they brought it on >themselves..ESPECIALLY when they did not! OK - enough already! I am going to refrain from using the word " we " , in this post. It appears that the rest of the list have the patience of Job as far as you are concerned. I, however, am sick to death of your constant " victim posts " . When you go after Alice (and yes, you did, . You said something nice about her in the first sentence of your 'hate' post - then you attacked her) - I will NOT stand by and watch without comment. You want to talk about how 'victims' feel, do you? Has it ever entered your selfish little head that there are other people on this list who have suffered? There is at least one person on this list who had to flee their native land because of Nazi persecution. There are several people who were raped as children. Others have given birth and watched their children die. Do they parade their suffering in front of our eyes in every single post? No. Do you? I'm not even going to bother to answer that - because until YOU do - and do it honestly - there is no point whatsoever. I don't believe that anyone has ever said you were stupid, . But, if you really fear that even one of us might think that you are - instead of protesting to us all the time about how many books you have read - SHOW that you understand the difference between a recreational mailing list and a therapy session. Righteous anger does not attack innocent people, . How DARE you suggest that Alice has had it easy? If you cared about anyone other than yourself, you would realise that she most certainly has not. OK, Mike, I'm sorry. If you want to remove me from the list for the sake of harmony, I will have no hard feelings. But has been getting away with way too much for way too long, and it seems as though I'm the only one mouthy enough to tell her. -- fa http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 fa..I did not ATTACK ALICE...i simply had a different opinion and once i understood the differences in what we were talking about..i recognized the miscommunication and the better judgement and wisdom of Alice..trying at the same time, not to lose focus of what i was clumsily trying to say in the first place. Sorry you did not see that. Sorry, the whole group is tired of my " VICTIM POSTS " , as you call them. No, i have no right to spill my beans here and my judgement has been impaired to do so! In the same token..why do you treat my posts as a place to 'pratice therapy'? I hardly post anymore, fa! And you can be assured that i will not do so again and be subjected to your 'know it all attitude'..You are way out of line here..just as you believe me to be! Good Day! fa wrote: > > In message , " K. Armstrong " > writes > >I > >just get sick of the 'pat Jungian' answers at times. It does little good > >until it can be digested at an 'INDIVIDUAL' speed. 'Victims' in this > >world are not always ready to hear that they brought it on > >themselves..ESPECIALLY when they did not! > > OK - enough already! > > I am going to refrain from using the word " we " , in this post. It appears > that the rest of the list have the patience of Job as far as you are > concerned. I, however, am sick to death of your constant " victim posts " . > When you go after Alice (and yes, you did, . You said something nice > about her in the first sentence of your 'hate' post - then you attacked > her) - I will NOT stand by and watch without comment. > > You want to talk about how 'victims' feel, do you? Has it ever entered > your selfish little head that there are other people on this list who > have suffered? There is at least one person on this list who had to flee > their native land because of Nazi persecution. There are several people > who were raped as children. Others have given birth and watched their > children die. Do they parade their suffering in front of our eyes in > every single post? No. Do you? I'm not even going to bother to answer > that - because until YOU do - and do it honestly - there is no point > whatsoever. > > I don't believe that anyone has ever said you were stupid, . But, if > you really fear that even one of us might think that you are - instead > of protesting to us all the time about how many books you have read - > SHOW that you understand the difference between a recreational mailing > list and a therapy session. > > Righteous anger does not attack innocent people, . How DARE you > suggest that Alice has had it easy? If you cared about anyone other than > yourself, you would realise that she most certainly has not. > > OK, Mike, I'm sorry. If you want to remove me from the list for the sake > of harmony, I will have no hard feelings. But has been getting away > with way too much for way too long, and it seems as though I'm the only > one mouthy enough to tell her. > -- > fa > http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2121/6/_/642966/_/955245648/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 Dear fa, The 'pat answers' i spoke of, had nothing to do with ALICE...the hook was intended for you..and you caught it. I am not an innocent victim here....guilty as charged! No wonder you are mad as hell! I would be too. I too, am guilty of your 'pat answers'. It sickens me when i think about how many times i have let my ego run away with me and glorified my knowledge at the sake of someone else's heart! fa wrote: > > In message , " K. Armstrong " > writes > >I > >just get sick of the 'pat Jungian' answers at times. It does little good > >until it can be digested at an 'INDIVIDUAL' speed. 'Victims' in this > >world are not always ready to hear that they brought it on > >themselves..ESPECIALLY when they did not! > > OK - enough already! > > I am going to refrain from using the word " we " , in this post. It appears > that the rest of the list have the patience of Job as far as you are > concerned. I, however, am sick to death of your constant " victim posts " . > When you go after Alice (and yes, you did, . You said something nice > about her in the first sentence of your 'hate' post - then you attacked > her) - I will NOT stand by and watch without comment. > > You want to talk about how 'victims' feel, do you? Has it ever entered > your selfish little head that there are other people on this list who > have suffered? There is at least one person on this list who had to flee > their native land because of Nazi persecution. There are several people > who were raped as children. Others have given birth and watched their > children die. Do they parade their suffering in front of our eyes in > every single post? No. Do you? I'm not even going to bother to answer > that - because until YOU do - and do it honestly - there is no point > whatsoever. > > I don't believe that anyone has ever said you were stupid, . But, if > you really fear that even one of us might think that you are - instead > of protesting to us all the time about how many books you have read - > SHOW that you understand the difference between a recreational mailing > list and a therapy session. > > Righteous anger does not attack innocent people, . How DARE you > suggest that Alice has had it easy? If you cared about anyone other than > yourself, you would realise that she most certainly has not. > > OK, Mike, I'm sorry. If you want to remove me from the list for the sake > of harmony, I will have no hard feelings. But has been getting away > with way too much for way too long, and it seems as though I'm the only > one mouthy enough to tell her. > -- > fa > http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2121/6/_/642966/_/955245648/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 Ahem!... Girls?... Do you mind if I step in and break this little one up?... When it comes to selfishness, um... I don't think stone-throwing is the answer... No-one here, as far as I can work out, is devoid of selfishness... If we were, we wouldn't know to recognise it in another... So... can we just let this drop?... It was me brung up de debbil. As you can see, he/she/is is alive and well and living in each one of our hearts... " Lord of Light " , " Light-bearer " ... This is, in my opinion, fundamental - that in the deepest darkness is the greatest of all light... I just regaled poor old with the following. I thought it might be worth a share: " ... Alice and I are not talking about the - so-called - 'morality' of suffering - (ALL suffering, from the tyrant's ingrown toenail and fear of impotence to the worst torture and refusal of dignity in his lowest dungeon, is equal in nature for the person who is going through it - It is suffering, MY suffering) - what *we* are questioning is its efficacity. Nor is rejection of one's suffering and anger at its apparent source in any way 'unnatural'. On the contrary! Nothing could *be* more natural. But where does it LEAD? The reason no war has ever been won - that no war has ever brought either happiness or peace - is simply that there has always been a loser. A loser is always sore. Both Buddha and Freud noticed that desire and hatred were two of the building-blocks of the world. Freud called them libido and thanatos and missed their point to great degree. Shakyamuni called the first of them raga, a Sanskrit word which means 'colouring, dyeing; colour; redness; passion, vehement desire, love, affection or sympathy for, joy or delight in'; and - by extension - 'loveliness, beauty, colouring', and, as we know, this is also the term for a musical mode. The second he termed khrodha, 'angry', which stems from the root khrud meaning 'to become angry or to enrage' Behind these, however, he also spotted the primordial " poison " (in the sense that it poisons the view of the person that has it), and this he called moha, 'loss of consciousness, bewilderment; delusion, infatuation; folly, error; stupefaction, swoon, etc.' The Tibetan translators, who were a little more enlightened than the occidentals who unfortunately established our first translations from which we are still trying to escape, translated these as 'dö-chag, 'desire-attachment' (with a secondary meaning of 'agglomeration' to the particle 'chag'); she-dang, ''hatred-aversion'; and ti-mug 'mental darkness and bewilderment'. On the basis of just generally not understanding what the hell is going on here, one is pulled by he nose of one's desires towards what one thinks one wants, and pushed in the chest of one's aversion, away from the object of one's dislike, thereby increasing the turbulence of one's mental darkness, round and round, like a dog chasing its tail, ad aeternam... This is the exact meaning of samsara - 'running round in circles'... So what's to be done? If you want muddywater to clear, how do you go about it? Do you try and stir up the mud and then skim it off with a net? Or do you just let the water lie for a bit until the mud settles to the bottom and then pour off the clear? The point being: we DON'T see each other; we see our own interpretations, our own suffering, and we project - sometimes accurately, sometimes less so... Let it drop. The important thing here is to look not at each other's ignorance, but into the murk and endless depths of our own. You can, if you really want to, pull out - pull out of this forum of supportive friends (and it IS a therapy-session, fa... to a degree...), or pull out of the murk, the - as the Iranian Sufis used to say - 'cloak of darkness' which the true man of light is struggling to rip off in a sandstorm... Give me the word, I'll hit the button. But there are plenty of hooks. And more than enough willing mouths! Love, m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 Woops! everyone back off - just observe what happens when 1] a discussion moves fr AD REM- to the matter - to AD HOMINEM - to the person, personally. 2] and how great is the importance of defining words bef we use them once the word 'hate' was defined, mary n i could agree that outrage was a better term than hate for what she was expressing! so PAX rather than pox be on us!:} i certainly did not feel in anyway attacked n if it came to that, hopefully, am still capable of explaining my position. PLEASE PLEASE let there not be another round of fuss n feathers!!! we are all here at the fire with a common interest in becoming more conscious and compassionate. which leads me to another important distinction: about the word PLAY. whenever we play a competitive game, be it soccer or chess we are engaged in an AS IF situation, an alternative reality. whenever we watch a PLAY we are also participating in an altern reality. which the ancient Greeks used to change coll consc. whenever the playing spills over out of its safe container, however, terrible things can ensue as we have witnessed in sports fans killing each other by identifying with rather than apprec all the " mock " fury of the true game. this is something we need to keep in mind at the fire. i learned this fr observ my mother n grandmother playing cards - Russian Bank. they never wld play in the hotel lounges - only in bedrooms, so they could sneer, threaten, and insult each other ALL in good fun! Later i played w/mother n taught my children that during the game they were free to insult me as much as they wanted. we were on equal footing, n a healthy outlet it always was. only once did my Leo daughter slip n in disgust thew the pack of cards all over the place. the AS IF is a true safety vessel n gives all forms of playing a quite serious purpose. when i had 2 hands, i was one MEAN Russ Bank n backgammon player. HA! love u all n let's get back to playing the old lady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 Dear , Right on! We do tend to rush to judgement when we hear words like " hate " , " forgiveness " , and I , for one, tend to preach, before I've listened carefully. I remember as a teen ager, and later, saying " I hate my Father, which I did, and having the world around me, piously saying : " no, you don't " " " how can you even think that? " . Well, I did. Then someone said " to hate means to wish someone had never exsisted " to be dead " And I realized, in horror, I didn't mean that at all. Even as a teen, I knew no human being has a right to wish that. It took me a lifetime to understand, that it had been OK for me to be so angry and outraged at the verbal abuse my mother and I suffered through. And much prayer and understanding to realize many, many years later, that he could not, at the time, have done otherwise. I went through many sessions on " inner healing " in the Charismatic renewal of the 70's, in which I was able to forgive myself for my feelings, and him for what he really made us suffer. He was long dead, but not gone, by the time our relationship was healed. I think of him often, with sadness, that we could not have understood each other in his lifetime. But,I feel ,he knows now. So, I for one, understand your dismay at the misunderstandings. Toni " K. Armstrong " wrote: > Well, dear Alice, > Good post. It is always good to get the definitions in order before any > discussion(G). Of course, My definition of Hatred is more in line with > OUTRAGE! I never wish ill will on anyone..I have been guilty of wishing > they might experience what they dish out in a Karmic sense..but am able, > most of the time, to let God's will be done. If you all knew me > well..you would understand that it was a very important part of my > process, to even admit, that i had buried rage, anger and hatred about > past injustices to my being. Hate was an Evil word and not allowed to be > felt growing up. To me, 'Hate' was rage and anger..Outrage.So folks, > is not sitting in a pool of slim here and she is not trying to be > difficult. I am not full of bitterness and thoughts of revenge..only > trying to mend a broken heart and spirit. So to clarify it better, let's > call it righteous anger. I never felt better, than when i finally let > someone have it who deserved it...FINALLY! And Greg, I did not feel > poisoned at all...i felt like i had purged an awful beast out of my > system and placed it where it needed to go...right into the 'beast' that > put it in me...for the last time(G)! Hate is just another > opposite...like light and dark...full and empty.Just a bit more > 'shadowy'...hence my original post. And folks, please give me a little > credit here...I am not stupid.I read all the books and sometimes even > gleam a thing or two(G)! I care about you all. I have been guilty of > posts in the past that were not well spoken or delivered well enough to > even be understood. I just get a bit passionate at times is all. I have > not been posting for quite sometime because i knew i had an 'edge' on me > that needed sanding down.A beast that needed to roam free for awhile. I > just get sick of the 'pat Jungian' answers at times. It does little good > until it can be digested at an 'INDIVIDUAL' speed. 'Victims' in this > world are not always ready to hear that they brought it on > themselves..ESPECIALLY when they did not! They are not always ready to > hear that their Love was in VAIN, either. If I ever Love again, in a > romantic sense...I'm thinking i would never want to be with a > Jungian(G)! I can think of nothing more boring than throwing hooks > around and having the 'fish' throw it back out of the 'Water' everytime! > Never catching enough to filet.....hahaha....and roast...or stuff and > mount...or tenderly prepare and enjoy!(In jest).... Take Care, > > IonaDove@... wrote: > > > > will write more later. house full n client > > > > hate=[for me] actively, consciously directing ill will to another > > > > what differs n can be positive= OUTRAGE! that is a healthy expression. hatred > > involves revenge n is ruled by neg proc of Scorpio. it always rebounds on the > > 'hater'- scorpion one of the few creatures capable of suicide - sting itself > > to death. > > > > much more later - ! > > > > love, in haste > > > > ao > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! > > 1. Fill in the brief application > > 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds > > 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR > > Apply NOW! > > http://click./1/975/6/_/642966/_/955200809/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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