Guest guest Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 >This makes me think that our community of advocates of animal foods >for their nutritional benefits should focus more attention on >advocating better farming/processing practices than trying to >convince people that " meat is good " . We cheer at the deconstruction >of the lipid myths and the rabid popularity of low-carb diets, yet >these things implicitly sanction greater consumption of supermarket >beef when unaccompanied by clear expositions of the agricultural >nightmare we are in the midst of. Many of us make an effort to >obtain properly raised beef, but we are still propagating a culture >of wildly irresponsible beef-centrism. While I eat 100% grass-fed, >conscientiously raised, local beef almost everyday, I struggle >conceptually with this beef-centrism and have my eyes open for ways >to support greater diversity of meats, especially wild meats, but >there are so many obstacles on this wiser path that I feel trapped by >my culture. I totally agree that we should all be doing our part to get people off the " supermarket mentality. " It goes beyond just meat though ... MOST of the food in the market has massive problems environmentally and politically. I'm not sure, but part of this " beef centrism " might be inbred. If the Paleo folks truly wandered behind herds of large animals for thousands of years, we may have an inbred tendency to like the meat of large ruminants. " Beef, it's what's for dinner " . I'm not sure why it is " wildly irresponsible " ? Large ruminants can graze land and the land can do just fine ... HOW it is done is another matter, but their were huge herds of bison and longhorn all over the land before they got herded up by the cowboys. Much of that land is still empty and unused. Although, there is great potential in goat herds too ... our little bit of property could probably sustain an nice herd of goats. But how would you make " wild " meat sustainable? I know some farmers are keeping herds of elk and deer, but then they aren't " wild " . A lot of this comes down to population density. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17474 In China, these forest creatures – rare and growing rarer by the minute – are transformed into pills and powders, soups and stews, and traditional medicine sold at specialty shops. The penchant for ye wei – literally, " wild taste " – is paradoxically as unstoppable as China's great leap forward toward capitalism and modernity. But ye wei depletes the forest of animals, and it causes diseases. SARS, which killed hundreds of people in China and left 5,300 Chinese sick with pneumonia earlier this year (and nearly brought China to an economic standstill) is believed by scientists to be linked to the civet cat – a favorite Chinese ye wei dish, preferably in a stew. .... But for humans, practicality goes out the window when it comes to eating habits. According to Diamond in his brilliant book, " Guns, Germs and Steel, " one acre of farmland can feed 10 to 100 times more people than hunting and gathering on one wildlife-rich acre. Wild animals that haven't already been tamed thousands of years ago, Diamond says, will not be tamed now, because of their relatively low nutritional value compared to the time and resources necessary for domestication. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A truly " wild " diet carries it's own problems ... >The following passage in the article Heidi posted really gives me >pause: > >@@@@@@@ >The late Ed Abbey had it right when he declared, " The rancher—with a >few honorable exceptions—is a man who strings barbed wire all over >the range; drills wells and bulldozes stock ponds; drives off elk and >antelope and bighorn sheep; poisons coyotes and prairie dogs; shoots >eagles, bears, and cougars on sight; supplants the native grasses >with tumbleweed, snakeweed, povertyweed, cow shit, anthills, mud, >dust, and flies. And then leans back and grins at the TV cameras and >talks about how he loves the American West. " >@@@@@@@@ I'm not sure I agree with that, at least not for all farmers. A lot of them are not grazing public land, and the land I got my beef from really isn't very usable for much else. >This makes me realize how rich our natural animal food resources are >in this country, yet we are ridiculously fixated on cows, chickens, >and pigs. Reading books like " Unmentionable Cuisine " >and " Curiosities of Food " overwhelms me with the magnitude of animal >food resources untapped in our current culture but rich with >historical precedent. I'd like to see some of the more easily implemented foods used more. For instance, escargot! The whole idea of " bug cuisine " is really untapped, and really ecologically friendly. Some of the other " unmentionables " I've tried aren't very ecologically friendly ... harvesting tidepools, for instance. You can get a lot of neat food from a tidepool, but it will ruin the tidepool if everyone does it. I could see raising escargot though, or " shell-less escargot (slugs). But what foods would you suggest? I've tried a few ... wild ducks, for one. I cleaned 16 of those guys in one sitting, and got enough food for maybe 2 meals. I think one of the reasons we are fixated on chickens, pigs, and cows is that they give a lot of food per animal. Most people I know who really DO eat wild food eat venison or elk, which really aren't that different from goat and beef. And we HAVE been giving mention to using some of the " other parts " of beef. I was surprised at how much protein gets thrown out (or likely, made into dog food or sausage) from one beef. >One of the great virtues of WAPF is the focus on integrating >nutritional, ecological, and social considerations in our foodways, >and it cannot be denied that it is a frighteningly daunting battle to >restore the primacy of small farms and local food distribution in the >face of disastrous large-scale agricultural practices. Nevertheless, >while this battle is urgent and necessary, more and more I'm >beginning to question the fundamental premises of the agricultural >model common to both WAPF-style family farms and mega-farms, >namely " cows, chickens, pigs, a handful of (often genetically >bastardized) vegetables and fruits, to hell with anything else " . >Thinking about the diversity and healthfulness of wild foods and >Masanobu Fukuoka's Natural Farming, I'm really not convinced that the >WAPF agricultural ideal takes things far enough. We are fighting >nature and losing badly. So what sorts of other things does Fukuoka recommend? I think this group is game to try anything ... I have to think that part of this is human nature. Hunter gatherers ate a wide variety of stuff, but farmers for the last umpteen years have concentrated on one or two " main " crops (and maybe eating the " pests " on those crops too!). Chickens, pigs, goats, and cows have been and are a mainstay in many cultures, not just ours. Of course, I didn't realize, until now, that this was from YOU Mike! So of course you have more experience than any of is in " alternative sustainable " foods. For what it is worth, when I was a kid NO ONE ate sushi, and now it is available at most supermarkets. So who knows, fried grasshoppers might not be far off. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 >Last year the Seattle, Washington TV station KIRO-TV had an >investigation about downer cows. You can read about this here: > ><http://www.kirotv.com/station/2249324/detail.html>http://www.kirotv.com/statio\ n/2249324/detail.html > >The investigation series can be viewed from the links under the >header " Downer cows investigation " . Marieta: Good article! Thanks. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Reading the article, I note it is about Midway Meats, in Oct 2002. That is where the BSE cow was processed in Dec 2003. -- Heidi >Last year the Seattle, Washington TV station KIRO-TV had an >investigation about downer cows. You can read about this here: > ><http://www.kirotv.com/station/2249324/detail.html>http://www.kirotv.com/statio\ n/2249324/detail.html > >The investigation series can be viewed from the links under the >header " Downer cows investigation " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 also, at least in my case, wild meat is not organic: the deer that i could easily get from my back porch unfortunately ranges not only on my organic farmland, but also on the two NOT organic farms to either side - with gmo corn, chemical fertilizers, herbacides and pesticides. i know exactly what my cows are eating, ya know? (the fact that i have to waste land as a bufferzone against the neighbors is another issue!) -katja, in central vt, new to the list... At 01:49 AM 1/2/2004, you wrote: >I'm not sure, but part of this " beef centrism " might be inbred. If the >Paleo folks >truly wandered behind herds of large animals for thousands of years, >we may have an inbred tendency to like the meat of large ruminants. " Beef, >it's what's for dinner " . > >I'm not sure why it is " wildly irresponsible " ? Large ruminants can graze land >and the land can do just fine ... HOW it is done is another matter, but their >were huge herds of bison and longhorn all over the land before they got >herded up by the cowboys. Much of that land is still empty and unused. atg technical support support@... 1-800-RING ATG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Pretty much how I grew up too, Bee even though Dad operated a slaughterhouse with plenty of domestic raised next piece over from house when I was preschool age. Beef we bought from raisers well known from slaughterhouse, neighbor raised chickens, we raised pigs, had Guernsey milk cow. Fish or game was at least twice a week as he hunted every season but bear. What amazed me with the BSE case and the beef sanctions placed by only a few of the foreign receiving countries is the amount of beef produced here thats shipped out, fattens a few pockets and destroys everyone else's environment. Wanita > Mike, I agree with you that the common meats consumed from farms, > that may be destroying natural habitat and wild meats, is not the way > to go. When I was growing up in Northern Wisconsin both of my > grandfathers had dairy farms and also raised pigs and chickens so we > got our share of domestic meats. But we also had lots of locally > obtained wild meat, i.e. deer, rabbit, squirrel, racoon, partridge, > quail, pheasant, duck, goose, turkey, fish from the nearby Chippewa > River, etc. > > Occasionally my father would go on a hunting trip out West and bring > back elk or bear. The women in our family were also hunters. One > Fall when father was hunting out West my mother shot a deer and a few > birds to feed us in the meantime. > > Bee > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 I hear you, Katja! Welcome! Wanita in northwest ma > also, at least in my case, wild meat is not organic: the deer that i could > easily get from my back porch unfortunately ranges not only on my organic > farmland, but also on the two NOT organic farms to either side - with gmo > corn, chemical fertilizers, herbacides and pesticides. i know exactly what > my cows are eating, ya know? (the fact that i have to waste land as a > bufferzone against the neighbors is another issue!) > > -katja, in central vt, new to the list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 ----- Original Message ----- From: " Bee " <beewilder@...> > Mike, I agree with you that the common meats consumed from farms, > that may be destroying natural habitat and wild meats, is not the way > to go. When I was growing up in Northern Wisconsin both of my > grandfathers had dairy farms and also raised pigs and chickens so we > got our share of domestic meats. But we also had lots of locally > obtained wild meat, i.e. deer, rabbit, squirrel, racoon, partridge, > quail, pheasant, duck, goose, turkey, fish from the nearby Chippewa > River, etc. If you want to do that, that's fine, but the world just isn't big enough to provide game for six billion people. Any minor problems that there may be with properly-farmed meats are at worst a necessary evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Bee, LOL...notice your email has shaw in it. Another neighbor growing up was Mrs. Shaw, an elderly English lady who'd watch us 4 when my parents needed. We used and ate just about every part of pigs except the kidneys which Dad didn't like. They went to Mrs. Shaw. Today's meat raising and agricultural practices methods have little to do with how nature works. They legislate on small farmer's manure runoff going into streams yet commercial operations can spew hundreds of times more than that, nevermind pesticides, herbicides and nitrogen based fertilizers. Mass monoculture is plain idiotic. Most rural areas have the proper mix of grazing to growing land, as nature made it in close enough proximity to support at least itself and the nearest city. Having the world dependant on our products opens up the door to trouble when things go wrong. Other countries purchasing the tools for their own production would mean their own product production and less dependancy. Can't have that. Doesn't seem worth that egg that is eventually going to fly back at you when it doesn't work. Wanita From: " Bee " <beewilder@...> > Dear Wanita, > We have a lot in common with our backgrounds. > > Yes it is amazing how much beef is produced and how much it destroys > the environment. But I believe it is the methods used that destroys > the environment, much more so than if they were raised with plenty of > range land and provided the proper balance in nature, giving back to > the soil good manure as fertilizer. > > Bee > > > Pretty much how I grew up too, Bee even though Dad operated a > slaughterhouse > > with plenty of domestic raised next piece over from house when I was > > preschool age. Beef we bought from raisers well known from > slaughterhouse, > > neighbor raised chickens, we raised pigs, had Guernsey milk cow. > Fish or > > game was at least twice a week as he hunted every season but bear. > > > > What amazed me with the BSE case and the beef sanctions placed by > only a few > > of the foreign receiving countries is the amount of beef produced > here thats > > shipped out, fattens a few pockets and destroys everyone else's > environment. > > > > Wanita > > > > > > > Mike, I agree with you that the common meats consumed from farms, > > > that may be destroying natural habitat and wild meats, is not the > way > > > to go. When I was growing up in Northern Wisconsin both of my > > > grandfathers had dairy farms and also raised pigs and chickens so > we > > > got our share of domestic meats. But we also had lots of locally > > > obtained wild meat, i.e. deer, rabbit, squirrel, racoon, > partridge, > > > quail, pheasant, duck, goose, turkey, fish from the nearby > Chippewa > > > River, etc. > > > > > > Occasionally my father would go on a hunting trip out West and > bring > > > back elk or bear. The women in our family were also hunters. One > > > Fall when father was hunting out West my mother shot a deer and a > few > > > birds to feed us in the meantime. > > > > > > Bee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 >When I was growing up in Northern Wisconsin both of my >> grandfathers had dairy farms and also raised pigs and chickens so we >> got our share of domestic meats. But we also had lots of locally >> obtained wild meat, i.e. deer, rabbit, squirrel, racoon, partridge, >> quail, pheasant, duck, goose, turkey, fish from the nearby Chippewa >> River, etc. > >If you want to do that, that's fine, but the world just isn't big enough >to provide game for six billion people. Any minor problems that there >may be with properly-farmed meats are at worst a necessary evil. Although, quail, goose, deer, rabbits, squirrels etc. coexist quite nicely with beef herds. One farmer runs " chicken tractors " in the same field as the beef ... the chickens eat the manure and the parasites and the beef are more healthy. He made the observation that in Africa, the birds follow the ruminants and they live together. If one didn't want to be chicken-centric, one could " seed " the beef fields with any game bird you like. Around here the hunters buy pheasant chicks and raise them for a few weeks, then release them into the fields. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 >Hi Heidi, > >Where do you live? -R > >Robin Stone, MS, RD About 40 miles north of Seattle, in the middle of nowhere. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 >That's great - I've never heard of " chicken tractors. " Chicken- >centric? LOL! Love your humour. It is good to have co-existence >and balance in nature to keep the ecosystem alive and thriving. > >Bee A chicken tractor is a big cage with chickens in it, which you move from spot to spot on a field. Really, it's hard to have really " free " chickens, esp. if you want the eggs ... they tend to get eaten by coyotes or eat something toxic (we lose them regularly that way). I thought the term " chicken tractor " was because a tractor tows the cage, but the chickens also can ACT like a tractor. We built a smaller cage ... you put it on a spot you want rototilled, and leave the chickens in there awhile. They take out all the grass, AND all the bugs! And fertilize. Then move the cage, and plant. Most of the problems with farming happen because, I think, of the " efficiency " drive in the 50's. The idea was to pack the animals together to the max, to see how little space you could get away with. So you keep the animals in cages, and stack the cages, and use automatic feeders. When I was a kid I got quail, and I kept getting these ads for commercial quail pens. Tiny cages, easy to clean. At a job I had, they had the same attitude on people ... to see how little space you could cram one worker into. Hence Cubeland. Some people also talk about how the earth could support more people, if we just crammed together more. But " cramming " animals, or people, just doesn't work longterm ... there is a biological and social need for SPACE, and buffer zones. I don't think it's a matter of one animal being " better " than another though. The vegetarians say raising all animals is bad ecologically, and the fish eaters say beef is bad, etc., but all animals can be either grown ecologically or not, IF that is your goal. The average Seattle neighborhood could support enough chickens to supply the egg needs of that neighborhood, and maybe a pig or two, and a goat or two, just on yard clippings and what goes down the garbage disposal. And if you get into humanure and gardening, they could probably grow most of their own vegies too. BTW speaking of pork, I knew a guy who put himself through college growing pigs ... he bought the little ones, and fed them from scraps he collected from restaurants. Don't know if that is still legal, but it sure was ecological! Now if someone collected kudzu to raise goats ... -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 mmm. speaking of organs...do any of you have sausage recipes? i am new to organ meats, and i was thinking sausage would be a good way to make it happen... At 10:36 AM 1/3/2004, you wrote: >Dear Wanita, >That's interesting that Mrs. Shaw got the kidneys. When I was >growing up we ate most of the organs of pigs and cows, i.e. heart, >kidneys, liver, etc. I have a funny story about pig kidneys - when I >was about 14 years old my Dad said he had a craving for pig kidneys >and got some for my mother to cook. He went out for awhile and when >he returned the pig kidneys were happily cooking on the stove, but it >stank like pee in the whole house. My Dad scrunched up his nose, >looked into the pot cooking on the stove and without a word picked up >the pot and put it outside. That was the end of cooking pig kidneys >in our house. Mother knew that they should be soaked for some time >in salt water but Dad had been in a hurry so I guess to save time she >had eliminated that step. LOL! > > > Today's meat raising and agricultural practices methods have little >to do with how nature works. They legislate on small farmer's manure >runoff going into streams yet commercial operations can spew hundreds >of times more than that, nevermind pesticides, herbicides and >nitrogen based fertilizers. Mass monoculture is plain idiotic. Most >rural areas have the proper mix of grazing to growing land, as nature >made it in close enough proximity to support at least itself and the >nearest city. Having the world dependant on our products opens up the >door to trouble when things go wrong. Other countries purchasing the >tools for their own production would mean their own product >production and less dependancy. Can't have that. Doesn't seem worth > > that egg that is eventually going to fly back at you when it >doesn't work.<<<<< > >So true Wanita. > >Bee > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 oh, heidi... i could write paragraphs on this, but for now i'm just gonna agree heartily. and also... this lady called me today totally out of the blue. our little farm is about to go through its first butchering, and in the spring we should have the CSA organized for its first go-round, so i listed us on this little website called " sustainable table " as an organic pasture-raised blah blah...so this lady called out of the blue, asking if she could buy meat. she had read some book about factory farming, i'm assuming from the title that i can't remember, and wanted to know that her meat had never been " in a cage " , and wanted to come over and SEE the happy cows in the pasture and the chickens clucking around, etc. at first i just assumed she was, ya know, one of us. but i heard her dutifully writing " s-a-l-l-y-f-a-l-l-o-n " and all the other reference material i rattled off...it was like she'd never realized there was -- ya know, it was like the matrix. ok, this is going to get kinda cheesey but she sorta threw me. it was like she just woke up and realized that the Supermarket Matrix is this big lie and that there's a truth out there that she never knew enough to look for. her voice had this sorta dazed-but-panicked tone.... i don't really know where i'm going with this. but she's coming over sometime, and she sounded like she was going to go out Right Now to buy the books i listed, and heck, if she makes it to this list someday i won't be surprised. does this mean i get a toaster? or for us is it like, a pound of celtic sea salt... At 01:35 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote: > > >That's great - I've never heard of " chicken tractors. " Chicken- > >centric? LOL! Love your humour. It is good to have co-existence > >and balance in nature to keep the ecosystem alive and thriving. > > > >Bee > >A chicken tractor is a big cage with chickens in it, which you move >from spot to spot on a field. Really, it's hard to have really " free " >chickens, esp. if you want the eggs ... they tend to get eaten by >coyotes or eat something toxic (we lose them regularly that way). > >I thought the term " chicken tractor " was because a tractor tows the >cage, but the chickens also can ACT like a tractor. We built a smaller >cage ... you put it on a spot you want rototilled, and leave the chickens >in there awhile. They take out all the grass, AND all the bugs! And fertilize. >Then move the cage, and plant. > >Most of the problems with farming happen because, I think, of the > " efficiency " drive in the 50's. The idea was to pack the animals together >to the max, to see how little space you could get away with. So you keep >the animals in cages, and stack the cages, and use automatic feeders. When >I was a kid I got quail, and I kept getting these ads for commercial quail >pens. Tiny cages, easy to clean. > >At a job I had, they had the same attitude on people ... to see how little >space you could cram one worker into. Hence Cubeland. Some people >also talk about how the earth could support more people, if we just >crammed together more. But " cramming " animals, or people, just >doesn't work longterm ... there is a biological and social need for >SPACE, and buffer zones. > >I don't think it's a matter of one animal being " better " than another >though. The vegetarians say raising all animals is bad ecologically, and >the fish >eaters say beef is bad, etc., but all animals can be either grown >ecologically or not, IF that is your goal. The average Seattle neighborhood >could support enough chickens to supply the egg needs of that >neighborhood, and maybe a pig or two, and a goat or two, just on >yard clippings and what goes down the garbage disposal. And if you >get into humanure and gardening, they could probably grow most >of their own vegies too. > >BTW speaking of pork, I knew a guy who put himself through college >growing pigs ... he bought the little ones, and fed them from scraps >he collected from restaurants. Don't know if that is still legal, but >it sure was ecological! Now if someone collected kudzu to raise >goats ... > >-- Heidi > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 >i don't really know where i'm going with this. > >but she's coming over sometime, and she sounded like she was going to go >out Right Now to buy the books i listed, and heck, if she makes it to this >list someday i won't be surprised. > >does this mean i get a toaster? >or for us is it like, a pound of celtic sea salt... Interesting experience! I can only say that I was dazed and befuddled for a long, long time myself. My first post to this list was " how to you KNOW kimchi doesn't have botulism? " or some such. I expect there is going to be more and more interest in " real " meat. I know I've been giving " samples " to everyone I meat (heh heh) and a lot of them have become " converts " . Seeing my first " butchering " was sort of a conversion experience also. Going through the Matrix, again. Sometimes you wonder how much one human brain can handle. OK, gotta have another dish of kimchi ... -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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