Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/03 6:44:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> Could you explain your comment about no fat protein before a workout and no

> fat protein and carbs after a workout for weight lifters.

To maximize the immediate anabolic impact, your muscles need a quick and

large supply of protein. Fat slows down digestion significantly. Ideally the

protein should be pre-digested, as with a qualtiy whey powder supplement, liquid

whey, or, perhaps, fermented raw liver, which I've never tried. It was

previously thought it was ideal to consume the protein immediately after a

workout,

but new research is finding it is 2.5 times more effective to eat it within 1

hour *before* the workout. But I say, what the heck, why not do both? In

order to maximize the anabolic impact, you also need to maximize your

post-workout insulin levels. You want high-glycemic carbs. I use maple syrup

and

mollasses. Raw honey would be best, but I'm currently out. I also suggest

butter

oil before a workout and cod liver oil after a workout. Arachidonic acid

should be consumed throughout the day preceeding the workout and EPA should be

consumed after the workout.

> Whose ideas are you following?

Everyones? I'm not aware of any weight-lifting advice that goes contrary.

What about those who do aerobics for about 1

> hr. 4x wk? Same food choices or different?

*shrug*. The advice was for maximizing anabolic impact of exercise, and

aerobics has no anabolic effect whatsoever to my knowledge, so it wouldn't

matter

as much. But I would still recommend a general tendency to undereat and eat

less carbs before exercising, and eat more and more carbs afterwards, which

should help with fat-burning.

I thought runners in particular suppose to carb load before a run, so they

don't run

> out of fuel and start burning muscle.

That's true, but it makes more sense to me to carb-load the night before.

The point is to maximize your glycogen storage, and if you store glycogen the

night before, it certainly isn't going to go anywhere while you're sleeping.

That would eliminate blood sugar issues. I certainly wouldn't want to carb-load

before anything but bed. But I wasn't speaking about running.

>

> Also, you mentioned not eating carbs till the evening and that you don't

> have to worry about how much. This is contrary to the zone programs and

atkins,

> etc., etc. I assume this is from the W.D. But, why is this???

I would recommend almost everything contrary to The Zone. In particular, eat

lots of arachidonic acid and saturated fat, and if you're an athlete, you

might not want to eat the amount of fish oil he recommends.

Anyway, these are both primarily weight loss diets. I know, I know, people

who advocate them will insist otherwise, but it is quite obvious that is their

primary focus. Most people who actually qualify as athletes do not need to

limit their carbs. If you have lots of fat to lose, you might benefit from

ketosis short-term, but you might also benefit from consuming carbs cyclically.

If you are weight lifting, you need to eat LOTS of carbs in the evening,

piles of them, and piles of everything else, if you want to gain muscle. If

you're everyone else, you need to eat a decent amount of carbs, and it would be

wise to not *always* be eating carbs, so you don't have chronically elevated

insulin levels. It would also be wise not to chronically restrict carbs, so you

don't have chronically low insulin. If you're going to pick a time to have

each, it makes sense to have the insulin in the evening, since it stimulates

relaxation-related hormones that have positive effects largely determined by the

insulin-depressant hormones preceeding it.

If you want more info on the positive effects of carbs, I'd recommend Ori's

article that someone posted here before, which is in the archives. If you want

the big scoop, read Maximum Muscle, Minimum Fat: The Science of Physical

Perfection by Ori Hofmekler.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/03 9:41:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jaltak@... writes:

> Protein, on the other hand, is like a hardwood log it burns slow and even

> for a long time. It takes longer to digest protein and it stays with a

> person much longer. And there is no burnout in a couple of hours or so, as

> there is with carbs.

That's true, but burnign protein you've eaten that day is not realistic for

an athlete at all. You're primarily going to burn carbs for fuel, and probably

fat if you're doing endurance training, but not the stuff you've eaten that

day, rather the stuff you've stored. I burn more calories in my *warmup* than

I could possibly digest in a given time, and you can't continue digesting food

once you start exercising, and if anything , food slows you down. Anyone

who's tried fasting knows that exercise helps shut hunger down, too.

The last thing I'd want to burn during exercise is protein, cause that would

mean I'm contributing to muscle breakdown, or significantly lowering my blood

aminos, which wouldn't be that great either.

I think carb-loading makes sense, but not the day of the exercise. If

anything, it would make sense to eat a light meal or no meal, some glutamine and

caffeiene.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Something I could never understand is why athletes would want to load up on

carbs before a workout or competition. Carbs are like burning a newspaper.

Flash and they are gone.

Protein, on the other hand, is like a hardwood log it burns slow and even

for a long time. It takes longer to digest protein and it stays with a

person much longer. And there is no burnout in a couple of hours or so, as

there is with carbs.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

Could you explain your comment about no fat protein before a workout and no

fat protein and carbs after a workout for weight lifters. Whose ideas are

you following? What about those who do aerobics for about 1 hr. 4x wk?

Same food choices or different? I thought runners in particular suppose to

carb load before a run, so they don't run out of fuel and start burning

muscle.

Also, you mentioned not eating carbs till the evening and that you don't

have to worry about how much. This is contrary to the zone programs and

atkins, etc., etc. I assume this is from the W.D. But, why is this???

Thanks,

Jafa

[Guest guest]

From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

Reply-

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:07:33 EST

Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

> Anyway, these are both primarily weight loss diets. I know, I know, people

> who advocate them will insist otherwise, but it is quite obvious that is their

> primary focus. Most people who actually qualify as athletes do not need to

> limit their carbs. If you have lots of fat to lose, you might benefit from

> ketosis short-term, but you might also benefit from consuming carbs

> cyclically.

>

> If you are weight lifting, you need to eat LOTS of carbs in the evening,

> piles of them, and piles of everything else, if you want to gain muscle. If

> you're everyone else, you need to eat a decent amount of carbs, and it would

> be

> wise to not *always* be eating carbs, so you don't have chronically elevated

> insulin levels. It would also be wise not to chronically restrict carbs, so

> you

> don't have chronically low insulin. If you're going to pick a time to have

> each, it makes sense to have the insulin in the evening, since it stimulates

> relaxation-related hormones that have positive effects largely determined by

> the

> insulin-depressant hormones preceeding it.

>

You know, I don't think I come up with easy references, but it seems to me

that plenty of people are making excellent muscle gains on low carb diets.

At least according to what I read on the Dragon Door list, and elsewhere.

While I am not attempting to add muscle, and my primary focus is

kettlebells, I find that I have gained more muscle since I have gravitated

to a relatively low carb diet, and upped my fat intake.

Is it possible that you are stating as fact what is quite open to debate?

[Guest guest]

Not being an athlete and not having close contact with one, I have no direct

knowledge of such things.

Thanks for the explanation.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

In a message dated 12/11/03 9:41:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jaltak@... writes:

> Protein, on the other hand, is like a hardwood log it burns slow and even

> for a long time. It takes longer to digest protein and it stays with a

> person much longer. And there is no burnout in a couple of hours or so, as

> there is with carbs.

That's true, but burnign protein you've eaten that day is not realistic for

an athlete at all. You're primarily going to burn carbs for fuel, and

probably

fat if you're doing endurance training, but not the stuff you've eaten that

day, rather the stuff you've stored. I burn more calories in my *warmup*

than

I could possibly digest in a given time, and you can't continue digesting

food

once you start exercising, and if anything , food slows you down. Anyone

who's tried fasting knows that exercise helps shut hunger down, too.

The last thing I'd want to burn during exercise is protein, cause that would

mean I'm contributing to muscle breakdown, or significantly lowering my

blood

aminos, which wouldn't be that great either.

I think carb-loading makes sense, but not the day of the exercise. If

anything, it would make sense to eat a light meal or no meal, some glutamine

and

caffeiene.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/03 10:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> While I am not attempting to add muscle, and my primary focus is

> kettlebells, I find that I have gained more muscle since I have gravitated

> to a relatively low carb diet, and upped my fat intake.

This could be due to decreasing your carb intake before your exercise, which

would increase the anabolic impact of exercise, or increasing your fat intake,

which would increase your androgen levels.

> Is it possible that you are stating as fact what is quite open to debate?

That's always possible. But there's detailed research supporting this

position, and the anecdotes available do not isolate the variables we're talking

about.

You speak of " low-carb " as if it is opposed to " high-carb, " while I'm saying

certain feeding schedules in relation to exercise have different effects, and

am primarily pitting eating carbs before your workout to eating carbs after

your workout, which is a whole 'nother axis.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/12/03 9:30:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> You stated that in order to gain muscle you HAD TO eat lots of carbs " in

> the

> evening " . I think that's blatantly overstated. One cannot eat ''low carb'

> and eats " lots of carbs " , at least according to my understanding of the

> language. In that sense, 'low carb' is opposed to 'high carb'.

My apologies, I used bad language. One will, in my estimation, gain muscle

to the extent one eats carbs after the workout.

>

> But, I guess this is another subject about which you know everything, eh?

I think you're overestimating my knowledge. As far as I know, there isn't

any subject about which I know everything, nor are there any about which I know

most of what there is to know, and probably there aren't any about which I

know " much " either.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/12/03 11:16:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> So, if one does not eat carbs after the workout, one cannot gain any muscle

> at all under any circumstances? LOL!

I suspect if one ate no carbs, one would have an enormously tough time

gaining muscle.

If you don't eat it immediately after the workout, it doesn't matter. You

are missing out on a 60 minute window to have a signifcant immediate anabolic

impact, but you wouldn't compromise your ability to gain muscle per se. The

insulin-dependent hormones necessary for building muscle can be stimulated at

any

point after the workout, and could probably even be stimulated the next day

without being stimulated the first day. But the lower your insulin levels, the

lower the anabolic activity. The immediate post-workout meal is necessary if

you want to maximize total anabolic activity, but not necessary if you just

want some anabolic activity.

Also, even while fasting there is some insulin in the blood, so there is

probably *some* cGMP too, and you'll be secreting *some* IGF-1/HGH, etc. So

it's

possible you could have anabolic activity, though I think on a strictly

no-carb diet, you'd run the risk of muscle-breakdown, but I'm not sure of that.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

>

> From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

> Reply-

> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:22:36 EST

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

>

>

> In a message dated 12/11/03 10:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> implode7@... writes:

>

>> While I am not attempting to add muscle, and my primary focus is

>> kettlebells, I find that I have gained more muscle since I have gravitated

>> to a relatively low carb diet, and upped my fat intake.

>

> This could be due to decreasing your carb intake before your exercise, which

> would increase the anabolic impact of exercise, or increasing your fat intake,

> which would increase your androgen levels.

>

>> Is it possible that you are stating as fact what is quite open to debate?

>

> That's always possible. But there's detailed research supporting this

> position, and the anecdotes available do not isolate the variables we're

> talking

> about.

>

> You speak of " low-carb " as if it is opposed to " high-carb, " while I'm saying

> certain feeding schedules in relation to exercise have different effects, and

> am primarily pitting eating carbs before your workout to eating carbs after

> your workout, which is a whole 'nother axis.

>

> Chris

>

>

You stated that in order to gain muscle you HAD TO eat lots of carbs " in the

evening " . I think that's blatantly overstated. One cannot eat ''low carb'

and eats " lots of carbs " , at least according to my understanding of the

language. In that sense, 'low carb' is opposed to 'high carb'.

But, I guess this is another subject about which you know everything, eh?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

> Reply-

> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:07:58 EST

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

>

>

> In a message dated 12/12/03 9:30:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> implode7@... writes:

>

>> You stated that in order to gain muscle you HAD TO eat lots of carbs " in

>> the

>> evening " . I think that's blatantly overstated. One cannot eat ''low carb'

>> and eats " lots of carbs " , at least according to my understanding of the

>> language. In that sense, 'low carb' is opposed to 'high carb'.

>

> My apologies, I used bad language. One will, in my estimation, gain muscle

> to the extent one eats carbs after the workout.

>

So, if one does not eat carbs after the workout, one cannot gain any muscle

at all under any circumstances? LOL!

>>

>> But, I guess this is another subject about which you know everything, eh?

>

> I think you're overestimating my knowledge.

Oh, I doubt that very much.

> As far as I know, there isn't

> any subject about which I know everything, nor are there any about which I

> know

> most of what there is to know, and probably there aren't any about which I

> know " much " either.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

who said you have to beleive a word he says ? i swear ppl are reading into

shit too much now

everyone here is just putting forth knowledge they have aquired and their

own thoughts.

its up to you to read what they say and make a judgement on it.

IF you dont beleive a word he says then im sorry but SHUT THE HELL UP

im getting a bit perturbed reading posts like this.

_____

From: Gene Schwartz [mailto:implode7@...]

Sent: Saturday, 13 December 2003 3:43 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

I just simply don't believe a word you say!

From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

Reply-

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:43:10 EST

Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

In a message dated 12/12/03 11:16:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> So, if one does not eat carbs after the workout, one cannot gain any

muscle

> at all under any circumstances? LOL!

I suspect if one ate no carbs, one would have an enormously tough time

gaining muscle.

If you don't eat it immediately after the workout, it doesn't matter. You

are missing out on a 60 minute window to have a signifcant immediate

anabolic

impact, but you wouldn't compromise your ability to gain muscle per se. The

insulin-dependent hormones necessary for building muscle can be stimulated

at any

point after the workout, and could probably even be stimulated the next day

without being stimulated the first day. But the lower your insulin levels,

the

lower the anabolic activity. The immediate post-workout meal is necessary

if

you want to maximize total anabolic activity, but not necessary if you just

want some anabolic activity.

Also, even while fasting there is some insulin in the blood, so there is

probably *some* cGMP too, and you'll be secreting *some* IGF-1/HGH, etc. So

it's

possible you could have anabolic activity, though I think on a strictly

no-carb diet, you'd run the risk of muscle-breakdown, but I'm not sure of

that.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I just simply don't believe a word you say!

From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

Reply-

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:43:10 EST

Subject: Re: Re: Eating and working out-Chris

In a message dated 12/12/03 11:16:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> So, if one does not eat carbs after the workout, one cannot gain any muscle

> at all under any circumstances? LOL!

I suspect if one ate no carbs, one would have an enormously tough time

gaining muscle.

If you don't eat it immediately after the workout, it doesn't matter. You

are missing out on a 60 minute window to have a signifcant immediate

anabolic

impact, but you wouldn't compromise your ability to gain muscle per se. The

insulin-dependent hormones necessary for building muscle can be stimulated

at any

point after the workout, and could probably even be stimulated the next day

without being stimulated the first day. But the lower your insulin levels,

the

lower the anabolic activity. The immediate post-workout meal is necessary

if

you want to maximize total anabolic activity, but not necessary if you just

want some anabolic activity.

Also, even while fasting there is some insulin in the blood, so there is

probably *some* cGMP too, and you'll be secreting *some* IGF-1/HGH, etc. So

it's

possible you could have anabolic activity, though I think on a strictly

no-carb diet, you'd run the risk of muscle-breakdown, but I'm not sure of

that.

Chris