A few random thoughts...

[Guest guest]

Hi everybody... I'm sitting here eating my breakfast of raw

hamburger, pickles and potato salad. This is my 4th time with

the raw hamburger, and I have to say, it's not bad. I read an

excerpt of Aajonus Vonderplanitz's " We Want to Live " last week,

and decided to try some raw protein. Hamburger was kind of a

weird choice, since it is the " scary " meat, randomly striking down

kids who eat at Jack in the Box and other fast food joints. But I

have a memory of being a kid, and tasting raw hamburger

because my sister said it tasted good. It did! So since I knew

already that it had a sweet, nice, taste, and since I had some

grassfed hamburger thawing in my fridge... well, you know the

rest!

I recently started working at a local healthfood store. The fact

that I have the energy to work is a testament to NT and Jordan

Rubin's G of L products. It feels a little strange, being educated

and a published illustrator, to be back doing the hourly wage

thing... but I really like working there. Low stress (unlike

illustration) and rewarding (leading people towards NT). I have

to say, I can see a mom and her kids and the store, and predict

that all their groceries when I ring them up will be vegetarian, soy

crap. I see ill health everywhere I look now. My husband and I

went to Disney in Oct., and I was appalled at how unhealthy 90%

of the children looked (wan, dark circles, narrow faces and small

heads... frail or overweight...) and of course many of them had

icecreams and chips in their hands.

I've also been distressed by the current state of Atkins and the

whole low-carb thing. We have a whole aisle of fake low-carb

foods. People come in and buy cases of shakes and boxes of

bars instead of our healthy meats and produce. As a big

proponent of low carb for overweight people, this saddens me.

People fill up on processed crap instead of getting the nutrients

their bodies need. I can't imagine Atkins will work for them in the

long run, and then the underlying premise of Atkins will be

blamed. The only way I've found to have my cake and eat it too,

is NT. I can eat soaked oatmeal, and raw honey, and potatoes,

and my blood sugar is stable, and I don't gain weight like I did on

the processed carbs and refined sugar. I think the average

non-obese person doesn't need to cut out that many carbs if they

want to lose weight. And for those with severe metobolic

disturbances, an NT style Atkins diet would probably be great.

Just my morning musings...

[Guest guest]

,

I share in your concern about how many people have a distorted view of what

is " healthy " . I, too, notice how many children look unhealthy, and I don't

mean just teenagers. Every day when I pick my son up from school, I notice how

many other children, ages 2-5, have severe dark circles under their eyes, have

runny noses all the time, and just generally look malnourished. We are starting

to look like the people of a third-world country. What frightens me, is that

if this is the condition of today's children, what physical and mental

catastrophe awaits tomorrow's adults?

Heavy musings.........but at least it is afternoon.

Theresa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/03 6:36:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Polyclean@... writes:

> Every day when I pick my son up from school, I notice how

> many other children, ages 2-5, have severe dark circles under their eyes,

> have

> runny noses all the time, and just generally look malnourished. We are

> starting

> to look like the people of a third-world country

This is somewhat off the topic, but when I was in kindergarten one thing that

annoyed me was seeing kids with snot running down their nose till it reached

their lip. I don't know if these runny noses are caused by bad diet, but

regardless, can't parents teach their kids to wipe their nose when it's running?

Chris

[Guest guest]

I have noticed the same thing for many years now. The species is really

degenerating.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

> I've also been distressed by the current state of Atkins and the

> whole low-carb thing. We have a whole aisle of fake low-carb

> foods. People come in and buy cases of shakes and boxes of

> bars instead of our healthy meats and produce. As a big

> proponent of low carb for overweight people, this saddens me.

> People fill up on processed crap instead of getting the nutrients

> their bodies need. I can't imagine Atkins will work for them in

> the long run, and then the underlying premise of Atkins will be

> blamed.

I agree. I have an original Adkin's diet book as well as a new-n-

improved one and while there are differences, none stand out so much

as in the one published after his death. Forgive me, I forget the

title, but it is designed for those who have lost their weight and

need 60 days of menus and all 60 are based on fake carbs like Adkin's

muffins for breakfast with a side of Adkin's toast, sandwiches for

lunch using Adkin's bread and snacks of Adkin's bars. These are soy

based products and loaded with glycerine and none will make one feel

full nor are they low carb. They do contain more than the label

states due to the glycerine.

And it will cause these 'losers' to gain their weight back.

Lauri

[Guest guest]

This is somewhat off the topic, but when I was in kindergarten one thing that

annoyed me was seeing kids with snot running down their nose till it reached

their lip. I don't know if these runny noses are caused by bad diet, but

regardless, can't parents teach their kids to wipe their nose when it's running?

~Chris

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'll never forget the boy in my grade 1 class who had to stand up during silent

reading time because he was acting up. He laughed - snorted really, and a long

rubbery string of snot hit the ground and bounced back up again. Kind of like a

booger bungee jump rope. Funny how comments like yours can trigger ancient

memories!

Filippa :-D

[Guest guest]

> ... What frightens me, is that if this is the condition of today's

children, what physical and mental catastrophe awaits tomorrow's adults?<

I think we'd better start some heavy networking now, in the interest of our

future grandchildren. I would rather my three beautiful children fell in

love with healthy people who understand what healthy food really is - so far

that's not available in our current neighborhood. How about yearly get

togethers, on a grand scale? Mind you I've years until my oldest is looking

for love, but younguns having a chance to meet other healthy knowledgeable

younguns would be just one benefit. Aren't there some singles on this list

looking for love amidst animal fats? Add in Heidi's proposal for some

nutrition/food prep classes, put it in a great location... and watch the

love bloom while you learn " Kimchi Secrets of the Slim Warrior Goddes " and

" How To *Idol*ize Sausage at Home " .

; )

Rhea

[Guest guest]

>I have noticed the same thing for many years now. The species is really

>degenerating.

>

>Elainie

If you read the beginning of the Price book, he was afraid of it even

then. Actually they were afraid the birth rate was dropping so

precipitously that we'd die out.

I tend to agree with the look of today's kids though. Tiny little

heads and faces. The doctor called my daughter " pumpkin head " and

they checked the other because they were afraid he had water on

the brain -- they really do have huge heads compared to their

classmates. But then I never fed them vegetarian food!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> " Kimchi Secrets of the Slim Warrior Goddes " and

> " How To *Idol*ize Sausage at Home " .

Whoa, I love those titles!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>I've also been distressed by the current state of Atkins and the

whole low-carb thing. We have a whole aisle of fake low-carb

foods. People come in and buy cases of shakes and boxes of

bars instead of our healthy meats and produce.

--->I thought this was interesting you mention Atkins and people doing it wrong.

I don't really know how the Atkins diet is supposed to work, but I thought I

would ask here since I know at least a few people follow it and know it well.

My husband was mentioning to me a comment from a nutritionist/endocrinologist

that Atkins would destroy people's kidneys--nothing I haven't heard before on

20/20, of course the source claims to know enough about the Atkins diet to say

that, which I have my doubts. BUT...my husband works at the state patrol academy

and they have cadets stay during the week and of course they feed them,etc. He

said they were having a big problem in the kitchen with these guys on the Atkins

diet because they were taking huge amounts of meat, bacon, etc, and one guy in

particular took 5 steaks one night. I can tell you they don't skimp on portions

at this place, if anything I always thought they over did it, so I thought that

5 steaks for one guy seemed really excessive and not really in line with the

Atkins diet. Anyway, it causes a problem because they don't serve in amounts for

each person, or even one guy, to take 5 steaks. That just means someone else

probably gets to eat vegetarian (so to speak) that night. I was hoping that

these people are just doing Atkins wrong, otherwise they are really giving the

diet a bad name. I would love to hear others thoughts on this.

Michele

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/03 11:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

honeysuckles@... writes:

> Aren't there some singles on this list

> looking for love amidst animal fats? Add

I'm not really looking to fall in love right now, but if I do it will be

amidst animal fats. Oh, and who is going to write the book of all the non-food

uses of kefir?

Chris

[Guest guest]

haah all the non food uses of kefir.

u also forgot about fruit chutney!

_____

From: ChrisMasterjohn@... [mailto:ChrisMasterjohn@...]

Sent: Friday, 28 November 2003 4:51 PM

Subject: Re: A few random thoughts...

In a message dated 11/26/03 11:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

honeysuckles@... writes:

> Aren't there some singles on this list

> looking for love amidst animal fats? Add

I'm not really looking to fall in love right now, but if I do it will be

amidst animal fats. Oh, and who is going to write the book of all the

non-food

uses of kefir?

Chris

[Guest guest]

>> I was hoping that these people are just doing Atkins wrong, otherwise they

are really giving the diet a bad name. I would love to hear others thoughts on

this. <<

Atkins doesn't give set amounts of food. At every phase, you have to do the work

to determine your own individual levels of nutrients and volume of food in

accordance with your own body's needs, activity level, etc. Even the level of

carbohydrate in the diet is invididually arrived at once you are past the

initial two-week " induction " phase, which you skip if you don't have body fat to

lose. We're told to eat when hungry, to eat until satisfied, but not to eat

until " stuffed. " I think this is why Atkins is so wonderful, but it's also why

so many people have so much trouble with it. They either want to be told what to

do in precise terms, or they just don't WANT to have to do any work.

I am quite sure there are men out there, especially very active men who have a

lot of lean muscle, who can handle five steaks a day. But as a general rule, of

course people on Atkins don't eat five steaks a day. First of all, protein can

be used like carbs by the body, so Atkins tells you not to eat more protein then

your body needs (although there is a popular perception that this is a " high

protein " diet, it's not - it's a moderate protein, low carb, high fat diet).

Second of all, for nearly everyone, five steaks at one meal is way, way past

being " stuffed " and into serious gluttony.

Third of all, no diet that requires eating five steaks a day could ever be very

successful, as few people could afford that. <G>

Several people have commented that " a steak and a plate of veggies " wouldn't be

a meal for them. I'm not surprised! It leaves out the magic ingredient that

makes Atkins work, and of course, that is dietary fat! Sauces, cheese, eggs,

creams dressings..... the combination of meat, cream, eggs, cheese, low glycemic

veggies and fruits, nuts, seeds, and of course, herbs and spices, mean that you

can eat abundantly and healthfully on Atkins. All you really " give up " is grains

(although some people can tolerate adding some whole grains back when no longer

on the fat loss portion of the plan), white flour, sugar and its " cousins " such

as high fructose corn syrup and other concentrated sweeteners including honey,

and the highest glycemic vegetables such as potatoes. That's it. Other than

those few very-high-glycemic foods, the Atkins plan is about as nutritionally

abundant as a diet can be. It's not meant to be a lean piece of meat and a

mountain of steamed veggies, hold the salt and fat, please!

Christie

[Guest guest]

Second of all, for nearly everyone, five steaks at one meal is way, way past

being " stuffed " and into serious gluttony.

Third of all, no diet that requires eating five steaks a day could ever be very

successful, as few people could afford that. <G>

---->I knew you would know something about this <G>. My dh and I were just

talking and he said he thinks they are 6oz steaks, so maybe some people (hey,

even me) could eat two, but 5?!!! But the two issues are, they are not paying

to eat this much extra, whether they can/need to or not, and what about all the

other guys that want to have a steak that night? All this trouble, and then

once again, the Atkins diet gets a bad name.

And, by the way, I always thought that Atkins was low carb/high fat, not high

protein like all the opponents try to say.

Michele

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/30/03 10:45:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ctr24845@... writes:

> ---->I knew you would know something about this <G>. My dh and I were just

> talking and he said he thinks they are 6oz steaks, so maybe some people

> (hey, even me) could eat two, but 5?!!! But the two issues are, they are not

> paying to eat this much extra, whether they can/need to or not, and what about

> all the other guys that want to have a steak that night? All this trouble,

> and then once again, the Atkins diet gets a bad name.

6 oz steaks? Are you kidding? 5 six ounce steaks is only 30 ounces, which

is barely more than 2 real steaks.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

No kidding. A 6oz " steak " is more like a niblet.

>6 oz steaks? Are you kidding? 5 six ounce steaks is only 30 ounces, which

>is barely more than 2 real steaks.

-

[Guest guest]

6 oz steaks? Are you kidding? 5 six ounce steaks is only 30 ounces, which

is barely more than 2 real steaks.

Chris

Well, I don't care about that. This is a governement agency footing the bill

ie: the taxpayer's ! These guys are not paying for their meal, so it is not

going to include a pound of steak just to accomadate their eating habits. You

don't expect other people to support your pound of steak(s) eating habit do you?

This is not the Hilton they are staying at, most are only their for a week, I

think they can sacrifice their " diet " for a week since it's free food to them.

There is no one stopping them from going out and buying their own 2 lb steaks

every night, I don't see any of them doing that. Instead they are graciously

allowing someone else to foot the bill. You guys are the first people I've met

that eat 2 lbs of steak at one sitting. I guess if this is what Atkins is all

about they really are going to get a bad name when they expect someone else to

pay for it.

Michele

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/03 3:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ctr24845@... writes:

> Anyway, whether it's the Atkins way or not, these guys selfish behavior is

> giving Atkins a bad name. I guys these guys should just be considered

> selfish for feeding their diet at someone else's expense, but what happens is

> people get the idea that the Atkins diet is glutinous. I hope that makes more

> sense

You could say the same thing if they took all the bread because they were

following the food pyramid. I thought the question was whether or not they were

following the Atkins diet, which is what I responded to, and also to the

accusation that they were eating too much meat. I didn't realize the question

was

whether or not they were sponges-- sure, they are. I don't see how they give

the Atkins diet a bad name though, for the reasons pointed out.

Chris

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " and Michele " <ctr24845@...>

> Well, I don't care about that. This is a governement agency footing

the bill ie: the taxpayer's ! These guys are not paying for their meal,

so it is not going to include a pound of steak just to accomadate their

eating habits. You don't expect other people to support your pound of

steak(s) eating habit do you? This is not the Hilton they are staying

at, most are only their for a week, I think they can sacrifice their

" diet " for a week since it's free food to them. There is no one

stopping them from going out and buying their own 2 lb steaks every

night, I don't see any of them doing that. Instead they are graciously

allowing someone else to foot the bill. You guys are the first people

I've met that eat 2 lbs of steak at one sitting. I guess if this is

what Atkins is all about they really are going to get a bad name when

they expect someone else to pay for it.

I'm not following your reasoning here. Suppose, for the sake of

argument, that eating two pounds of beef every day is an integral part

of the Atkins diet. What does the inconsiderate behavior of a few of its

adherents have to do with the merits of the diet? Were you under

impression that " The Diet Revolution " devoted a chapter to getting other

people to pay for your food? Would the diet magically become better if

they had gone out and bought their own food?

[Guest guest]

I'm not following your reasoning here. Suppose, for the sake of

argument, that eating two pounds of beef every day is an integral part

of the Atkins diet. What does the inconsiderate behavior of a few of its

adherents have to do with the merits of the diet? Were you under

impression that " The Diet Revolution " devoted a chapter to getting other

people to pay for your food? Would the diet magically become better if

they had gone out and bought their own food?

The whole point of my questioning was because these guys are coming into a work

cafeteria that is funded by taxpayers, they are staying there for a week of

training and the food prepared in this cafeteria is made in amounts to feed a

certain number of people a certain amount of food each, and these guys are

taking 5x the amount in meats, i.e.; steak, bacon, etc. They claim to be doing

the Atkins diet, but this cafeteria can't support their Atkins habit for them.

I was only wondering if someone on the list knew if this was really in keeping

with Atkins or were they just being gluttonous. Some thought they were being

gluttonous, and it wasn't really in keeping with Atkins, others thought that it

wasn't really that much meat and maybe they need it. It sort of wandered off

into whether or not they should eat that much or deserved it. I think they

should eat as much meat as they want as long as it's their dime and not the

taxpayers. Besides the fact that somewhere down the line someone else is going

to walk in for their dinner and find that someone else has eaten all the steak

because they are doing Atkins. It's not that I don't think they should do it,

just not in that situation...IF that's really the way Atkins is done. The

people preparing the food are frustrated because they can't support these guys

eating habits in this way, whether it's Atkins, Warrior, or just glutinous. I

think an example would be going to someone's house for a dinner party, say, and

taking all the meat or most of it because " you " are on a special diet, while the

other guest get stuck with rolls and vegetables. That's the view of the people

who pay for and prepare the food. Anyway, whether it's the Atkins way or not,

these guys selfish behavior is giving Atkins a bad name. I guys these guys

should just be considered selfish for feeding their diet at someone else's

expense, but what happens is people get the idea that the Atkins diet is

glutinous. I hope that makes more sense.

Michele

[Guest guest]

Don't remember who posted the police/Atkins thoughts. Is Atkins here

intended for weight loss, muscle building? Atkins doesn't work for everyone

nor is it intended for everyone just like all diets not personalized to the

individual. Think we've all learned that sometimes whats craved the most is

the worst for you. Hope those steaks weren't commercial low fat.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

I don't see how they give

the Atkins diet a bad name though, for the reasons pointed out.

Chris

Because they take more than the share that's prepared for them and they say

" Well, we're doing Atkins so we HAVE to have all this. "

Michele

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/03 10:50:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ctr24845@... writes:

> Because they take more than the share that's prepared for them and they say

> " Well, we're doing Atkins so we HAVE to have all this. "

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :-)

Chris