Re: circulatory probls and crioglobulinemy

[Guest guest]

From: Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon.

Hi Marco,

This may or may not be relevant, but I've suffered from cold-induced oedema,

itchiness and discoloration of the hands since early 20s (and have low BP).

It was diagnosed as Raynaud's (whether primary or secondary to a systemic

condition still remains to be seen), and I had what was then the standard

treatment (bilateral axillary sympathectomy), which is no longer performed as

it at best only alleviates symptoms marginally.

I found that the classic herbal combo of circulatory stimulants (gingko,

zanthox, zingiber, achillea etc) ultimately made the oedema worse.

What has helped was

a) Vaccinium, Vit E and buckwheat derived rutin, which appears to stabilise

the blood vessels, but must be taken religiously. I imagine the reason why

the circulatory stimulants aggravated my condition was that they were

increasing circulation through an essentially leaking system.

A dry atmosphere - my oedema gets worse in houses without central heating,

deteriorated when I moved to the wet West Country, disappeared when I visited

eastern Europe in the winter despite the fact that it could be a good 10-15

degrees colder. I have since installed a dehumidifier in the bedroom, which

helps a lot.

c) Tangerines, clementines and other Christmas citruses (but not oranges),

including chewing the peel.

d) Common-sense things like gloves when outside and gloves for washing-up.

Although I haven't tried this yet, I'd be interested to see whether any of

the anti-oxidant supplements (eg pycnogenol) would help.

Hope this may be of some use. Do keep us updated.

Best regards,

Krystyna

[Guest guest]

Hi all, first of all thank you to those who provided info on herbalists in

Birmingham.

Secondly, I'd like to have your opinion on this patient of mine. 20 yo girl,

presenting with severe hand acrocyanosis with edema, purpura, itching, no

pain, triggered by cold. No history of con tiss disease, no articular probs,

no history of chronic infection, infective hep, HVC infection or GIT problems,

no migraines, no fam his of con tiss or rheum disorders, although father side

general arthritic tendency and mother side hypertens. History of water

retention and cold extremities but never so severe, recent drastic weight loss

(15 Kg, she has now regained 3 Kg) follows severe diet, goes to the gym 4

times/w, stress at home (parents separating after 10 yr struggle), no menses

in the last 4 months, general low BP, dark under eyes. We are waiting for lab

results on Rheum Fact, AntiNuclAntib and criocrit.

It could be primary or secondary to many dis, but GP thinks crioglobulinemy is

a possibility. I have no experience with that. My first Rx concentrates of

circ stim and tonics to face the emergency (the hands are really discolored

and edematous)

Infusion of

Zingiber

Glycyrrhiza

Crataegus

Achillea

plus Vaccinium tablets and EP oil capsules

A bit wary of using Ephedra or stron circ stimilants because she seems a bit

unstable, and it seems to me she is adrenalinic, seemingly strong but fragile

Any insights on treatment od crioglobilunemy and this Px?

Thanks

marco

--

Marco Valussi BSc (Hons.) Herbal Medicine

Medical Herbalist

Vicolo Santa Cecilia 7

37121 Verona

Italy

[Guest guest]

Hi Marco,

Happy new year to you. I'm back at my desk after this cold day walking about

in Verona and an even colder Xmas holiday in good old Germany. Last Friday,

I handed

in my deferred thesis, which was the last effort for my studies. Now this

burden is finally off my shoulders. It wasn't easy writing with 3 babies

around

my desk!

I haven't heard of the disease you're describing but Hananja at the Archway

had unexpected success in lowering persistently high blood pressure with

Zanthoxylum, which is also indicated for Raynauds. Maybe worth a shot.

I greatly enjoyed the morning in your cosy apartment chatting about our

profession. You might be interested to know that last autumn only 25

students

started the course at MDX and the Uni are now throwing out 2 of the teaching

staff

to account for this. Cruel world.

I remember promising to supply you with some infos but I forgot which ones.

Please

remind me. One was the date of the conference: 12-15 April in Cirencester.

If you're

interested I can send you a copy of the application. The other was the

German herb

supplier which I have to find. What else??

Regards

> Re: circulatory probls and crioglobulinemy

>

> Hi all, first of all thank you to those who provided info on herbalists in

> Birmingham.

>

> Secondly, I'd like to have your opinion on this patient of mine. 20 yo

> girl,

> presenting with severe hand acrocyanosis with edema, purpura, itching, no

> pain, triggered by cold. No history of con tiss disease, no articular

> probs,

> no history of chronic infection, infective hep, HVC infection or GIT

> problems,

> no migraines, no fam his of con tiss or rheum disorders, although father

> side

> general arthritic tendency and mother side hypertens. History of water

> retention and cold extremities but never so severe, recent drastic weight

> loss

> (15 Kg, she has now regained 3 Kg) follows severe diet, goes to the gym 4

> times/w, stress at home (parents separating after 10 yr struggle), no

> menses

> in the last 4 months, general low BP, dark under eyes. We are waiting for

> lab

> results on Rheum Fact, AntiNuclAntib and criocrit.

> It could be primary or secondary to many dis, but GP thinks

> crioglobulinemy is

> a possibility. I have no experience with that. My first Rx concentrates

> of

> circ stim and tonics to face the emergency (the hands are really

> discolored

> and edematous)

>

> Infusion of

> Zingiber

> Glycyrrhiza

> Crataegus

> Achillea

>

> plus Vaccinium tablets and EP oil capsules

>

> A bit wary of using Ephedra or stron circ stimilants because she seems a

> bit

> unstable, and it seems to me she is adrenalinic, seemingly strong but

> fragile

>

> Any insights on treatment od crioglobilunemy and this Px?

>

> Thanks

>

> marco

> --

> Marco Valussi BSc (Hons.) Herbal Medicine

> Medical Herbalist

> Vicolo Santa Cecilia 7

> 37121 Verona

> Italy

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry for this circulation, was obviously meant to go privately!

[Guest guest]

Hi Marco,

Q1. The ginger, a spice which I dislike intensely and so avoid in food, was

part of the tincture, a 1:2. I have tried ginger tablets in the past with no

effect.

Q2. Have tried gingko in the past as tablets (before I started training and

got access to tinctures); again no circulatory improvement, just buzzing in

the head.

Q3. Combination tincture, which also included crataegus and achillea,

prescribed when I was a student, initially (first 1-2 weeks) allieviated the

symptoms (in my case the worst is excruciating pain on PIPs if I knock them

in any way). Then my right hand, which since the sympathectomies has always

been worse, swelled up rather alarmingly, especially the fingers. There was

none of the oragnge and purple discolourations. Interestingly, one of my

neighbours, who suffers from similar problems, also tried the tincture and

experienced nose bleeds. One of my practioners suggested that the zanthox may

have been responsible.

Over the years I have tended to regard this as a condition that requires

vaso-motor stabilisation rather than circulatory boosting.

Best reagrds,

Krystyna

[Guest guest]

Dear Krystyna

> I found that the classic herbal combo of circulatory stimulants (gingko,

> zanthox, zingiber, achillea etc) ultimately made the oedema worse.

Interesting. Just a couple of questions: was the ginger dried or fresh? and,

did you try ginkgo on its own or was it always in combo? Being 'cooler' then

zanthox or ginger, could it be less aggressive? Just wondering, but I take

your point

> What has helped was

> a) Vaccinium, Vit E and buckwheat derived rutin, which appears to stabilise

> the blood vessels, but must be taken religiously. I imagine the reason why

> the circulatory stimulants aggravated my condition was that they were

> increasing circulation through an essentially leaking system.

Yep, seems a good reason. Did the cir stim combo help in the initial phase or

did it make things worse at the very beginning?

> A dry atmosphere - my oedema gets worse in houses without central heating,

> deteriorated when I moved to the wet West Country, disappeared when I visited

> eastern Europe in the winter despite the fact that it could be a good 10-15

> degrees colder. I have since installed a dehumidifier in the bedroom, which

> helps a lot.

> c) Tangerines, clementines and other Christmas citruses (but not oranges),

> including chewing the peel.

> d) Common-sense things like gloves when outside and gloves for washing-up.

>

> Although I haven't tried this yet, I'd be interested to see whether any of

> the anti-oxidant supplements (eg pycnogenol) would help.

> Hope this may be of some use. Do keep us updated.

Thank you for the very useful insight, I will let you know, patient is coming

with lab results this Friday and we'll see if the Rx give has made any

difference.

Best wishes

Marco

>

> Best regards,

>

> Krystyna

--

Marco Valussi BSc (Hons.) Herbal Medicine

Medical Herbalist

Vicolo Santa Cecilia 7

37121 Verona

Italy

[Guest guest]

Yes, it was standardised.

[Guest guest]

May I ask a question on your note 3. re. neighbour who experienced nose

bleeds. Was there gingko in this mix? I've had a patient who responded to

gingko standardised extract with nose bleeds which ceased when gingko

withdrawn and resumed when started again. I have gone back to using tincture

since.

Re: circulatory probls and crioglobulinemy

> Hi Marco,

>

> Q1. The ginger, a spice which I dislike intensely and so avoid in food,

was

> part of the tincture, a 1:2. I have tried ginger tablets in the past with

no

> effect.

> Q2. Have tried gingko in the past as tablets (before I started training

and

> got access to tinctures); again no circulatory improvement, just buzzing

in

> the head.

>

> Q3. Combination tincture, which also included crataegus and achillea,

> prescribed when I was a student, initially (first 1-2 weeks) allieviated

the

> symptoms (in my case the worst is excruciating pain on PIPs if I knock

them

> in any way). Then my right hand, which since the sympathectomies has

always

> been worse, swelled up rather alarmingly, especially the fingers. There

was

> none of the oragnge and purple discolourations. Interestingly, one of my

> neighbours, who suffers from similar problems, also tried the tincture and

> experienced nose bleeds. One of my practioners suggested that the zanthox

may

> have been responsible.

>

> Over the years I have tended to regard this as a condition that requires

> vaso-motor stabilisation rather than circulatory boosting.

>

> Best reagrds,

>

> Krystyna

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From: Marco Valussi

<<...patient of mine. 20 yo girl,presenting with severe hand acrocyanosis

with edema, purpura, itching, no pain, triggered by cold.>>

Dear Marco

A study of magnesium levels in women with Rayauds showed that in summer

months blood Mg levels were higher than normal and in winter blood Mg levels

were considerably lower than normal. Conclusion was an abnormality in Mg

metabolism.

Maybe winter Mg supplementation would help or Epsom salt hand/feet soaks ?

Cold extremities and poor circulation etc may be connected with zinc

deficiency.

Evening primrose oil study showed benefit of supplementation for Raynauds

patients.

Centella (Hydrocotyl asiatica) is helpful in peripheral circ disorders more

as a restorative of vascular connective tissue than a circ stimulant.

Ginkgo and Centella work well as a combo.

Regards

Morag Chacksfield BSc, MNIMH

moragchacksfield@...

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

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[Guest guest]

Interested in Morags comments regarding magnesium. This is a universally

deficient mineral with a few exceptions. It is extraordinary how correcting

Mg sorts so may problems. It always acts as a smooth muscle relaxant. It is

a co-factor in so many biological pathways. Blood tests need to be for

either red cell magnesium or white cell Mg. Serum Mg is worthless as its

intracellular. I always do a blood test for red cell magnesium where there

is any chronic ill health. It is lost by the cells in stress due to

oxidative damage to the cell membrane. I don't know about this condition

so much but as in any difficult health problem a good lab work up provides

clues. If the red cell magnesium is low correct it. I know from experience

that if low it can take 6 months of good supplementation to correct it.

Hence many doctors working in nutritional medicine use Mg intra muscular

shots to get levels up faster. (Painful unless you add a little

lignocaine).

lind Blackwell ND MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Hi Ros

> Interested in Morags comments regarding magnesium. This is a universally

> deficient mineral with a few exceptions. It is extraordinary how

correcting

> Mg sorts so may problems. It always acts as a smooth muscle relaxant. It

is

<snip>

If someone is on a Ca/Mg supplement such as 'Osteogard' will that be enough

to raise Mg levels, or is a specific Mg supplement neccessary?

Cheers

Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH.

Medical Herbalist

Bishop's Stortford & Buntingford

--------------------------------------------------------------------

gcwhite@...

[Guest guest]

Hello Graham, Osteoguard (Lamberts)? contains 250 mg Mg per cap and 500 mg

calcium. If the patient is Mg deficient they need considerably more

magnesium. If they are not deficient and they take 2 per day they may do

fine. I am not sure which form the Mg is in. Since it is so poorly absorbed

it needs to be one of the good combinations, amino acid chelated or

taurine, glycine etc as long as its not Mg oxide that is worthless.

Generally I prefer the Cal Mg ratio to be 2:1 in favour of the Mg rather

than the other way round. Magnesium is crucial in osteoporosis for all

sorts of reasons but it helps the absorption of calcium. If you have a

patient who is magnesium deficient (there really is no substitute for blood

tests but suspect deficiency in someone who is stressed, drinks

alcohol....even moderately, is ill, has angina, cramps/musle spasms,

constipation, migraines) they need to take 500 -1000 mg tablets or caps per

day.....really to bowel tolerance , in some people it makes them too loose.

When the dosage is listed it is often not the elemental magnesium, this is

the important measure, which needs to be 90-100 mg or thereabouts. Some

chronically ill people simply can't absorb it by mouth hence the IM or IV

route in these people, especially chronic fatigue, severe depression, and

fibromyalgia. With dosages it really depends on how low they are, how fast

they are losing it and whether you can replace it faster than they lose it.

Stopping the Mg loss is as important as supplementing. It leaks out of the

cells during stress. Adrenaline is the stress molecule and causes

oxidative damage and hence leaky cell membranes. Mg serves as a co-factor

in so many biochemical pathways and necessary for the absorption of other

nutrients, essential fatty acids, B vits etc. etc. and since increased

intracellular levels of calcium poison cellular enzymes it is crucial.

Calcium channel blockers are used by mainstream medicine to deal with this

but Mg is Natures ca channel blocker. Mg needs to stay inside the cells and

calcium on the outside. In addition to Mg supplements it is chlorophyll

that is such marvellous stuff. Chlorophyll converts solar energy into

chemical bond energy and is a magnesium chelate. So making green juices and

eating greens is a good source and we come full circle to plants! The

people that need it most often don't eat these things. Epsom salts which is

Mg sulphate in baths can boost levels too whilst helping other things. OK

off my magnesium soapbox now!

All the best

lind Blackwell

[Guest guest]

I'd like to thank all those who gave suggestions for the acrocyanosis patient.

Allt he lab investig were negative and the patient was relieved to know this;

she returned with remarkable improvements after 10 days of antiinflam and circ

stim decoction: edema, discoloraton end itching all greately reduced. worked

on diet to improve antiox and flavonoids, and added a longer term Rx with

Ginkgo, Crataegus, Bupleurum,Rosmarinus.

Talked to GP and will do Mg test, and suggested rutin plus bioflavonoid

supplementation

Thank again

cheers

marco

--

Marco Valussi BSc (Hons.) Herbal Medicine

Medical Herbalist

Vicolo Santa Cecilia 7

37121 Verona

Italy