New Doctor Gives Old Lines

[Guest guest]

Went to see a new Rheumatologist yesterday because my doctor retired. Checked

with his office staff to see if he had any other patients with my condition

before I made appointment. I have Reiters Syndrome a Reactive Arthritis

diagnosed 24 years ago at Vanderbilt University Medical Center Rheumatology

Clinic, Nashville, TN, and confirmed by three other university medical center

rheumatology clinics since that time, plus consistent with diagnosis and

treatment protocols of all but one doctor I've seen since then.

This new doc does his exam, asks his questions, then says, " I don't think you

have Reiters. " I ask, " Then what do I have? " He says he doesn't know. Now who

do I believe? All of the other doctors that have treated me over the last 25

years or him who I have just met? He discounts the fact that almost every other

member of my family has one form or another of Reactive Arthritis and/or other

autoimune diseases.

I tell him that I am seeing him because I cannot sleep due to pain in right hip

and right shoulder and feet, especially the heels of my feet (very consistent

with inflammation of Achilles' tendon with Reiters). He says that the NSAID I'm

taking (Feldene) is obviously not helping me and takes me off of the Feldene.

Then he says that NSAID's and Asulfasalzine and Methotrexate, etc., have too

many side effects compared to their usefulness and won't prescribe them. He

gives me Wygesic for pain, 65 mg. every 8 hours. I say, " I took Darvon when I

was in college for migraine headaches. " " Oh, " he says, " Wygesic is not darvon.

It is very different. " Yet, when I go to pharmacist and ask what Wygesic is,

both pharmacist and the PDR tell me that Wygesic and Darvon are the same drug.

Then the doctor says, " Lots of patients with RS have had good results taking

tetracyclines like minocycline. " So I say, " But I thought you said I didn't

have RS? " So he decides to wait on prescribing the minocycline until we meet

next week.

To top all of this off, the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm talking. He asks

questions and then cuts me off before I've finished answering. He gets up and

walks out of the room while I'm still talking. Then he zeroes in on urinary

tract symptoms which for me are at an all time low in terms of discomfort. I

say I don't need any assistance in that area, but it is all he keeps talking

about. " I think I'll send you to a urologist for a lazer vaporization of the

prostate. " I keep saying, " That is not why I'm here today. I'm here because I

have intolerable pain in my hip and shoulder. "

I called his office this morning and ask why he has told me that Wygesic is not

the same as Darvon. His nurse says, " Because it is combined with tylenol. " I

already knew that. Darvon-type compounds work best when combined with aspirin

or tylenol. But to say that they aren't the same basic drug is quite misleading

and in fact just plain wrong.

His nurse says, " He's been practicing for over 40 years and that's just the way

he is. " Well, I'm 49 years old and this is just the way I am...I think I'll go

and see a doctor with more up-to-date information and knowledge of the disease

who isn't trapped in a 40-year old picture of the disease and its treatment.

Things have changed in 40 years. The old concepts of RS and its sister disease

Anklosying Spondilitis have undergone tremendous changes in understanding of the

disease and its treatment.

Has anyone had any luck with trying to " interview " a doctor before you commit to

undergoing a new patient batter of tests and physical? I'd gladly pay $50.00

for a fifteen minute interview to find out about the doctor before making a real

new patient appointment. Haven't found anyone that's willing to do that yet.

Told my wife today (she's an OB/GYN) to ask around and find out who her

doctor-peers would go to if they had an arthritic disorder. Hopefully, I can

get a good doc that way.

Ray in Virginia

----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

* Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

14278868@...

For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

Ray in Virginia

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray,

Sounds like this doc started off like a good rheumatologist, taking

a very god history, but is somewhat lost in history himself. Maybe

1800's or so.

Interview? Great idea. But you shouldn't have to pay for it, and I

think the better doc would understand completely. Maybe this doc should

be taking his own medicine (that's what witchdoctors do, isn't it).

How about starting with the chief of rheumatology at a good teaching

hospital, & working your way down, if necessary, instead of up from the

abyss.

Ken

H. R. Neal wrote:

> Went to see a new Rheumatologist yesterday because my doctor

> retired. Checked with his office staff to see if he had any other

> patients with my condition before I made appointment. I have Reiters

> Syndrome a Reactive Arthritis diagnosed 24 years ago at Vanderbilt

> University Medical Center Rheumatology Clinic, Nashville, TN, and

> confirmed by three other university medical center rheumatology

> clinics since that time, plus consistent with diagnosis and treatment

> protocols of all but one doctor I've seen since then. This new doc

> does his exam, asks his questions, then says, " I don't think you have

> Reiters. " I ask, " Then what do I have? " He says he doesn't know. Now

> who do I believe? All of the other doctors that have treated me over

> the last 25 years or him who I have just met? He discounts the fact

> that almost every other member of my family has one form or another of

> Reactive Arthritis and/or other autoimune diseases. I tell him that I

> am seeing him because I cannot sleep due to pain in right hip and

> right shoulder and feet, especially the heels of my feet (very

> consistent with inflammation of Achilles' tendon with Reiters). He

> says that the NSAID I'm taking (Feldene) is obviously not helping me

> and takes me off of the Feldene. Then he says that NSAID's and

> Asulfasalzine and Methotrexate, etc., have too many side effects

> compared to their usefulness and won't prescribe them. He gives me

> Wygesic for pain, 65 mg. every 8 hours. I say, " I took Darvon when I

> was in college for migraine headaches. " " Oh, " he says, " Wygesic is

> not darvon. It is very different. " Yet, when I go to pharmacist and

> ask what Wygesic is, both pharmacist and the PDR tell me that Wygesic

> and Darvon are the same drug. Then the doctor says, " Lots of patients

> with RS have had good results taking tetracyclines like minocycline. "

> So I say, " But I thought you said I didn't have RS? " So he decides to

> wait on prescribing the minocycline until we meet next week. To top

> all of this off, the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm talking. He

> asks questions and then cuts me off before I've finished answering.

> He gets up and walks out of the room while I'm still talking. Then he

> zeroes in on urinary tract symptoms which for me are at an all time

> low in terms of discomfort. I say I don't need any assistance in that

> area, but it is all he keeps talking about. " I think I'll send you to

> a urologist for a lazer vaporization of the prostate. " I keep saying,

> " That is not why I'm here today. I'm here because I have intolerable

> pain in my hip and shoulder. " I called his office this morning and ask

> why he has told me that Wygesic is not the same as Darvon. His nurse

> says, " Because it is combined with tylenol. " I already knew that.

> Darvon-type compounds work best when combined with aspirin or

> tylenol. But to say that they aren't the same basic drug is quite

> misleading and in fact just plain wrong. His nurse says, " He's been

> practicing for over 40 years and that's just the way he is. " Well,

> I'm 49 years old and this is just the way I am...I think I'll go and

> see a doctor with more up-to-date information and knowledge of the

> disease who isn't trapped in a 40-year old picture of the disease and

> its treatment. Things have changed in 40 years. The old concepts of

> RS and its sister disease Anklosying Spondilitis have undergone

> tremendous changes in understanding of the disease and its

> treatment. Has anyone had any luck with trying to " interview " a doctor

> before you commit to undergoing a new patient batter of tests and

> physical? I'd gladly pay $50.00 for a fifteen minute interview to

> find out about the doctor before making a real new patient

> appointment. Haven't found anyone that's willing to do that yet.

> Told my wife today (she's an OB/GYN) to ask around and find out who

> her doctor-peers would go to if they had an arthritic disorder.

> Hopefully, I can get a good doc that way. Ray in

> Virginia----------------------------------------------------

> Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

> * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

> http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

> * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

> 14278868@...

> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

> Ray in Virginia

[Guest guest]

Ken,

Good idea about starting with medical school for referral. I'll try that. Our

nearest med school is in City, TN, about an hour away by car. Hey, at

least the doc didn't refer me to a psychiatrist! I would have really exploded

on that. Like too many of the rest of us, I'm just " too pleasant. "

----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

* Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

14278868@...

For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

Ray in Virginia

Re: New Doctor Gives Old Lines

Hi Ray,

Sounds like this doc started off like a good rheumatologist, taking a

very god history, but is somewhat lost in history himself. Maybe 1800's or so.

Interview? Great idea. But you shouldn't have to pay for it, and I think

the better doc would understand completely. Maybe this doc should be taking his

own medicine (that's what witchdoctors do, isn't it).

How about starting with the chief of rheumatology at a good teaching

hospital, & working your way down, if necessary, instead of up from the abyss.

Ken

H. R. Neal wrote:

Went to see a new Rheumatologist yesterday because my doctor retired.

Checked with his office staff to see if he had any other patients with my

condition before I made appointment. I have Reiters Syndrome a Reactive

Arthritis diagnosed 24 years ago at Vanderbilt University Medical Center

Rheumatology Clinic, Nashville, TN, and confirmed by three other university

medical center rheumatology clinics since that time, plus consistent with

diagnosis and treatment protocols of all but one doctor I've seen since then.

This new doc does his exam, asks his questions, then says, " I don't think you

have Reiters. " I ask, " Then what do I have? " He says he doesn't know. Now who

do I believe? All of the other doctors that have treated me over the last 25

years or him who I have just met? He discounts the fact that almost every other

member of my family has one form or another of Reactive Arthritis and/or other

autoimune diseases. I tell him that I am seeing him because I cannot sleep due

to pain in right hip and right shoulder and feet, especially the heels of my

feet (very consistent with inflammation of Achilles' tendon with Reiters). He

says that the NSAID I'm taking (Feldene) is obviously not helping me and takes

me off of the Feldene. Then he says that NSAID's and Asulfasalzine and

Methotrexate, etc., have too many side effects compared to their usefulness and

won't prescribe them. He gives me Wygesic for pain, 65 mg. every 8 hours. I

say, " I took Darvon when I was in college for migraine headaches. " " Oh, " he

says, " Wygesic is not darvon. It is very different. " Yet, when I go to

pharmacist and ask what Wygesic is, both pharmacist and the PDR tell me that

Wygesic and Darvon are the same drug. Then the doctor says, " Lots of patients

with RS have had good results taking tetracyclines like minocycline. " So I say,

" But I thought you said I didn't have RS? " So he decides to wait on prescribing

the minocycline until we meet next week. To top all of this off, the guy doesn't

listen to me when I'm talking. He asks questions and then cuts me off before

I've finished answering. He gets up and walks out of the room while I'm still

talking. Then he zeroes in on urinary tract symptoms which for me are at an all

time low in terms of discomfort. I say I don't need any assistance in that

area, but it is all he keeps talking about. " I think I'll send you to a

urologist for a lazer vaporization of the prostate. " I keep saying, " That is

not why I'm here today. I'm here because I have intolerable pain in my hip and

shoulder. " I called his office this morning and ask why he has told me that

Wygesic is not the same as Darvon. His nurse says, " Because it is combined with

tylenol. " I already knew that. Darvon-type compounds work best when combined

with aspirin or tylenol. But to say that they aren't the same basic drug is

quite misleading and in fact just plain wrong. His nurse says, " He's been

practicing for over 40 years and that's just the way he is. " Well, I'm 49 years

old and this is just the way I am...I think I'll go and see a doctor with more

up-to-date information and knowledge of the disease who isn't trapped in a

40-year old picture of the disease and its treatment. Things have changed in 40

years. The old concepts of RS and its sister disease Anklosying Spondilitis

have undergone tremendous changes in understanding of the disease and its

treatment. Has anyone had any luck with trying to " interview " a doctor before

you commit to undergoing a new patient batter of tests and physical? I'd gladly

pay $50.00 for a fifteen minute interview to find out about the doctor before

making a real new patient appointment. Haven't found anyone that's willing to

do that yet. Told my wife today (she's an OB/GYN) to ask around and find out

who her doctor-peers would go to if they had an arthritic disorder. Hopefully,

I can get a good doc that way. Ray in

Virginia----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

* Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

14278868@...

For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

Ray in Virginia

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray:

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be funny. Interesting you should bring something

like that to the list at this time considering the last couple of posts I

sent talking about malpractice and just plain bad medicine in some cases. I

think you've zeroed in on the biggest problem with this new doctor with the

phrase " the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm talking " . Time to leave I'd

say.

How do you go about interviewing a doctor before you " sign on " with him/her

? I was thinking this morning while typing a reply to Vickie concerning Dr

's mission that there are few professionals we inherently trust

more than physicians. I can only think of priests/ministers and perhaps cops

and teachers. Think about it. We have so many preconceived ideas about so

many occupations: auto mechanics are thieves, car salesman are worse, taxi

drivers are cheats, lawyers...well I'll leave that one up to your

imagination. We are conditioned to blindly accept what most doctors say and

it seems that the few who have questioned their competence have come up

against the wrath of the AMA (or CMA here in Canada) and these guys are

POWERFUL. Doctors seem to belong to a secret organization which allows

little or no criticism of the profession, and covers for their own bad

apples so much that you can't get a doctor to testify against another in

most cases. My last surgery left me in a wheel chair because the

neurosurgeon had removed bits of bone imbedded in my spine which were

leftovers from my first sloppy surgery. When I blew up at this, he was quick

to point out that " no " , he wasn't prepared to put that in writing if my

intent was to take it to court. I spent over 10 years on the " experimental

medicine band wagon " because I trusted that my doctors were feeding me

effective medication or directing me to proven forms of therapy. I was

afraid to question them. I was subjected to sugar injections in the spine,

cortisone injections, acupuncture, light exercise, heavy exercise, name it.

Nothing worked. The doctors would shrug and come up with " well, we tried " .

" We tried ? " , bull, they tried. I suffered. The one time I requested that a

doctor tell me something about a newly prescribed medication, he asked me if

I was going to question everything he said. My immediate reaction ? To

apologize like a little kid and tell him that I wouldn't do it again ! Was I

naive and stupid or what ?

People in professions that hold that much power over the general public

specifically over people in need due to disease, illness, disability, should

be held much more accountable than the average Joe. If " Joe " comes to my

door and tells me to take a certain pill, I'll tell him to go take a " flying

trip " somewhere. On the other hand if my doctor tells you the same thing,

you'd probably do it. Hell 10 years ago I did do it, time and again. After

all, the docs have my best interest at heart, unlike Joe...right ?

It's time to demystify medicine. Most of the doctors I know need to step

down from the mountain once in a while and come see how the " common folk "

are living. As for the others who are already walking among the common folk,

thank you. The bad apples make the good ones seem that much better. Remember

the old days when a company would keep someone on the payroll even if they

had a nasty disposition if they were consistently great at their job ? This

is 1998, these days are gone. A physician or other professional who doesn't

listen to his client, who makes wild claims, unsubstantiated statements and

deceives his clients is not worthy of the title on his diploma and should be

retired. If his peers won't do it, perhaps our refusal to use his/her

services will.

For the record, (I've already posted this shortly after I joined the list),

I do have a doctor I interviewed. In fact we interviewed each other. I

brought my medical file to him, let him read it, told him some about myself,

told him what I expected and after giving it some thought, he took me on as

a patient. We've been together for 10 years now and together, we manage my

pain and make my life more bearable. Every so often, we run tests to make

sure there are no new problems. I see him regularly often just to talk (I

talk he listens, then he talks and I listen) about possible new treatments

or his fishing trips, whatever. He is indeed a special man and a caring

physician but just as I would not label all physicians as incompetents, I

also will not give them blind trust because my physician is above reproach

in my eyes. They must each earn their own reputation based on their own

merit and not based on some general belief that they can do no wrong.

Ray, I don't know what to tell you. I could say it's disgraceful of you to

have been faking all these years but it wouldn't be funny. I can perhaps

make a suggestion. The special person you seek must be found by special

means. Could you try to make it to some clinics in your area and just ask

for an appointment to talk to the doc. Just give them a call first if you

want but don't be specific about your need unless you have the actual doctor

on the line. The receptionist will undoubtedly ask what it's about. Just say

you're looking for a new physician and you just want to talk to the

doctor...for free. Chances are, the majority won't let you in. If you're

lucky (and I sincerely hope you are ), one will... That's what I did. I was

refused about a dozen times before I met " doctor right " . I'll never regret

the trouble I put myself through.

Please let us know what comes of this. You may be up for a rough time. We'll

be here to listen if you feel the need to vent off some frustration.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Ray,

'Nother possibility is to try some of the regional (even distant)

med schools with good Rheum. departments. When I was surgerized at

Neurological Institute (Columbia College of Physicians & Surgeons), My

doc was training a slew of residents, and I'm sure many of them went to

head programs in different locales. I know P & S, & I would assume many

med schools, keep tabs on their top talent.

Also, that list that sent through looked like it could give

you a week's worth of sifting. And then there's the 'well fly you to a

competent specialist offer (under airfare); and sounds like they do.

Why does pain have to be such damn hard work!

Ken

H. R. Neal wrote:

> Ken,Good idea about starting with medical school for referral. I'll

> try that. Our nearest med school is in City, TN, about an

> hour away by car. Hey, at least the doc didn't refer me to a

> psychiatrist! I would have really exploded on that. Like too many of

> the rest of us, I'm just " too

> pleasant. " ----------------------------------------------------

> Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

> * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

> http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

> * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

> 14278868@...

> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

> Ray in Virginia

>

> Re: New Doctor Gives Old LinesHi

> Ray,

> Sounds like this doc started off like a good

> rheumatologist, taking a very god history, but is somewhat

> lost in history himself. Maybe 1800's or so.

> Interview? Great idea. But you shouldn't have to pay for

> it, and I think the better doc would understand completely.

> Maybe this doc should be taking his own medicine (that's

> what witchdoctors do, isn't it).

> How about starting with the chief of rheumatology at a

> good teaching hospital, & working your way down, if

> necessary, instead of up from the abyss.

>

> Ken

>

> H. R. Neal wrote:

>

> > Went to see a new Rheumatologist yesterday because my

> > doctor retired. Checked with his office staff to see if

> > he had any other patients with my condition before I made

> > appointment. I have Reiters Syndrome a Reactive Arthritis

> > diagnosed 24 years ago at Vanderbilt University Medical

> > Center Rheumatology Clinic, Nashville, TN, and confirmed

> > by three other university medical center rheumatology

> > clinics since that time, plus consistent with diagnosis

> > and treatment protocols of all but one doctor I've seen

> > since then. This new doc does his exam, asks his

> > questions, then says, " I don't think you have Reiters. " I

> > ask, " Then what do I have? " He says he doesn't know. Now

> > who do I believe? All of the other doctors that have

> > treated me over the last 25 years or him who I have just

> > met? He discounts the fact that almost every other member

> > of my family has one form or another of Reactive Arthritis

> > and/or other autoimune diseases. I tell him that I am

> > seeing him because I cannot sleep due to pain in right hip

> > and right shoulder and feet, especially the heels of my

> > feet (very consistent with inflammation of Achilles'

> > tendon with Reiters). He says that the NSAID I'm taking

> > (Feldene) is obviously not helping me and takes me off of

> > the Feldene. Then he says that NSAID's and Asulfasalzine

> > and Methotrexate, etc., have too many side effects

> > compared to their usefulness and won't prescribe them. He

> > gives me Wygesic for pain, 65 mg. every 8 hours. I say,

> > " I took Darvon when I was in college for migraine

> > headaches. " " Oh, " he says, " Wygesic is not darvon. It

> > is very different. " Yet, when I go to pharmacist and ask

> > what Wygesic is, both pharmacist and the PDR tell me that

> > Wygesic and Darvon are the same drug. Then the doctor

> > says, " Lots of patients with RS have had good results

> > taking tetracyclines like minocycline. " So I say, " But I

> > thought you said I didn't have RS? " So he decides to wait

> > on prescribing the minocycline until we meet next week. To

> > top all of this off, the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm

> > talking. He asks questions and then cuts me off before

> > I've finished answering. He gets up and walks out of the

> > room while I'm still talking. Then he zeroes in on

> > urinary tract symptoms which for me are at an all time low

> > in terms of discomfort. I say I don't need any assistance

> > in that area, but it is all he keeps talking about. " I

> > think I'll send you to a urologist for a lazer

> > vaporization of the prostate. " I keep saying, " That is

> > not why I'm here today. I'm here because I have

> > intolerable pain in my hip and shoulder. " I called his

> > office this morning and ask why he has told me that

> > Wygesic is not the same as Darvon. His nurse says,

> > " Because it is combined with tylenol. " I already knew

> > that. Darvon-type compounds work best when combined with

> > aspirin or tylenol. But to say that they aren't the same

> > basic drug is quite misleading and in fact just plain

> > wrong. His nurse says, " He's been practicing for over 40

> > years and that's just the way he is. " Well, I'm 49 years

> > old and this is just the way I am...I think I'll go and

> > see a doctor with more up-to-date information and

> > knowledge of the disease who isn't trapped in a 40-year

> > old picture of the disease and its treatment. Things have

> > changed in 40 years. The old concepts of RS and its

> > sister disease Anklosying Spondilitis have undergone

> > tremendous changes in understanding of the disease and its

> > treatment. Has anyone had any luck with trying to

> > " interview " a doctor before you commit to undergoing a new

> > patient batter of tests and physical? I'd gladly pay

> > $50.00 for a fifteen minute interview to find out about

> > the doctor before making a real new patient appointment.

> > Haven't found anyone that's willing to do that yet. Told

> > my wife today (she's an OB/GYN) to ask around and find out

> > who her doctor-peers would go to if they had an arthritic

> > disorder. Hopefully, I can get a good doc that way. Ray

> > in

> > Virginia----------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

> > * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

> > http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!)

> > or,

> > * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

> > 14278868@...

> > For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

> > Ray in Virginia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

My father was similarly crippled in back surgery by fragments that

were also left in the spine. He also nearly died in his hospital bed

afterward when I couldn't get attention for him from anyone on the

floor. That's when I learned to scream in healthcare.

I don't know what the statute of limitations is in your situation,

but a credible case could be made. I too have been so very nice in not

suing for malpractice, with myself & my family becoming the victims of

my good sportsmanship.

Ken

Mike R Courteau wrote:

> Hi Ray: If it wasn't so sad, it'd be funny. Interesting you should

> bring something like that to the list at this time considering the

> last couple of posts I sent talking about malpractice and just plain

> bad medicine in some cases. I think you've zeroed in on the biggest

> problem with this new doctor with the phrase " the guy doesn't listen

> to me when I'm talking " . Time to leave I'd say.How do you go about

> interviewing a doctor before you " sign on " with him/her ? I was

> thinking this morning while typing a reply to Vickie concerning Dr

> 's mission that there are few professionals we inherently

> trust more than physicians. I can only think of priests/ministers and

> perhaps cops and teachers. Think about it. We have so many

> preconceived ideas about so many occupations: auto mechanics are

> thieves, car salesman are worse, taxi drivers are cheats,

> lawyers...well I'll leave that one up to your imagination. We are

> conditioned to blindly accept what most doctors say and it seems that

> the few who have questioned their competence have come up against the

> wrath of the AMA (or CMA here in Canada) and these guys are POWERFUL.

> Doctors seem to belong to a secret organization which allows little or

> no criticism of the profession, and covers for their own bad apples so

> much that you can't get a doctor to testify against another in most

> cases. My last surgery left me in a wheel chair because the

> neurosurgeon had removed bits of bone imbedded in my spine which were

> leftovers from my first sloppy surgery. When I blew up at this, he was

> quick to point out that " no " , he wasn't prepared to put that in

> writing if my intent was to take it to court. I spent over 10 years on

> the " experimental medicine band wagon " because I trusted that my

> doctors were feeding me effective medication or directing me to proven

> forms of therapy. I was afraid to question them. I was subjected to

> sugar injections in the spine, cortisone injections, acupuncture,

> light exercise, heavy exercise, name it. Nothing worked. The doctors

> would shrug and come up with " well, we tried " . " We tried ? " , bull,

> they tried. I suffered. The one time I requested that a doctor tell me

> something about a newly prescribed medication, he asked me if I was

> going to question everything he said. My immediate reaction ? To

> apologize like a little kid and tell him that I wouldn't do it again !

> Was I naive and stupid or what ?People in professions that hold that

> much power over the general public specifically over people in need

> due to disease, illness, disability, should be held much more

> accountable than the average Joe. If " Joe " comes to my door and tells

> me to take a certain pill, I'll tell him to go take a " flying trip "

> somewhere. On the other hand if my doctor tells you the same thing,

> you'd probably do it. Hell 10 years ago I did do it, time and again.

> After all, the docs have my best interest at heart, unlike Joe...right

> ?It's time to demystify medicine. Most of the doctors I know need to

> step down from the mountain once in a while and come see how the

> " common folk " are living. As for the others who are already walking

> among the common folk, thank you. The bad apples make the good ones

> seem that much better. Remember the old days when a company would keep

> someone on the payroll even if they had a nasty disposition if they

> were consistently great at their job ? This is 1998, these days are

> gone. A physician or other professional who doesn't listen to his

> client, who makes wild claims, unsubstantiated statements and deceives

> his clients is not worthy of the title on his diploma and should be

> retired. If his peers won't do it, perhaps our refusal to use his/her

> services will.For the record, (I've already posted this shortly after

> I joined the list), I do have a doctor I interviewed. In fact we

> interviewed each other. I brought my medical file to him, let him read

> it, told him some about myself, told him what I expected and after

> giving it some thought, he took me on as a patient. We've been

> together for 10 years now and together, we manage my pain and make my

> life more bearable. Every so often, we run tests to make sure there

> are no new problems. I see him regularly often just to talk (I talk he

> listens, then he talks and I listen) about possible new treatments or

> his fishing trips, whatever. He is indeed a special man and a caring

> physician but just as I would not label all physicians as

> incompetents, I also will not give them blind trust because my

> physician is above reproach in my eyes. They must each earn their own

> reputation based on their own merit and not based on some general

> belief that they can do no wrong.Ray, I don't know what to tell you. I

> could say it's disgraceful of you to have been faking all these years

> but it wouldn't be funny. I can perhaps make a suggestion. The special

> person you seek must be found by special means. Could you try to make

> it to some clinics in your area and just ask for an appointment to

> talk to the doc. Just give them a call first if you want but don't be

> specific about your need unless you have the actual doctor on the

> line. The receptionist will undoubtedly ask what it's about. Just say

> you're looking for a new physician and you just want to talk to the

> doctor...for free. Chances are, the majority won't let you in. If

> you're lucky (and I sincerely hope you are ), one will... That's what

> I did. I was refused about a dozen times before I met " doctor right " .

> I'll never regret the trouble I put myself through.Please let us know

> what comes of this. You may be up for a rough time. We'll be here to

> listen if you feel the need to vent off some frustration.Mike

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Thanks again for your wise assessment of the situation. I'll be questing for a

good doctor for the next few days, weeks, ...? You are right about the " secret

society " mentality of most doctors who seem to take great offense if anyone

questions there esteemed prognostications. The simple fact of the matter is

that doctors are just ordinary people with a little bit of extra training in a

particular field. They are no different than anyone else in another field of

expertise. If there can be bad accountants, or bad bakers, then there are

surely bad doctors, too. Being married to a doctor means I get all the local

gossip about doctors. It is interesting to note which doctors their peers won't

go to see, even if they were dying. Makes it easy to stay away from the really

bad ones in our town. But there are no Rheumatologists locally, so I have to

drive outside of the area, usually into another state.

I still can't get over the audacity of this fellow to disregard the medical

opinions and diagnoses of major medical clinic physicians for the last 24 years

of my life and tell me that all those other doctors have been wrong, and he

alone is right, when he tells me that he believes I don't have RS. If it looks

like a dog, acts like a dog, and smells like a dog, then it must be a dog. I

have exhibited all the major and minor symptoms of RS for over 24 years, I have

responded to treatment for RS but like other diseases sometimes the treatment

needs to adapted or changed to continue to get a positive response. Just

because on the day that he examines me some of the clinical manifestations of RS

don't happen to be present does not mean that everybody else has been wrong all

of these years.

What I want to tell him is to join the computer revolution and get on-line. His

information about the disease is outdated and he obviously hasn't kept up with

recent research. He still seems to think that RS is a self-limiting disease

that goes away after a flare-up or two. I'd like to introduce him to all the

folks in my online support group for RS that have had the disease for years, and

years, and years, some even longer than I have had it.

Oh, well, back to the drawing board to select a new doctor. God, how I hate

this process.

Ray

----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

* Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

14278868@...

For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

Ray in Virginia

Re: New Doctor Gives Old Lines

Hi Ray:

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be funny. Interesting you should bring something

like that to the list at this time considering the last couple of posts I sent

talking about malpractice and just plain bad medicine in some cases. I think

you've zeroed in on the biggest problem with this new doctor with the phrase

" the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm talking " . Time to leave I'd say.

How do you go about interviewing a doctor before you " sign on " with him/her

? I was thinking this morning while typing a reply to Vickie concerning Dr

's mission that there are few professionals we inherently trust more

than physicians. I can only think of priests/ministers and perhaps cops and

teachers. Think about it. We have so many preconceived ideas about so many

occupations: auto mechanics are thieves, car salesman are worse, taxi drivers

are cheats, lawyers...well I'll leave that one up to your imagination. We are

conditioned to blindly accept what most doctors say and it seems that the few

who have questioned their competence have come up against the wrath of the AMA

(or CMA here in Canada) and these guys are POWERFUL. Doctors seem to belong to a

secret organization which allows little or no criticism of the profession, and

covers for their own bad apples so much that you can't get a doctor to testify

against another in most cases. My last surgery left me in a wheel chair because

the neurosurgeon had removed bits of bone imbedded in my spine which were

leftovers from my first sloppy surgery. When I blew up at this, he was quick to

point out that " no " , he wasn't prepared to put that in writing if my intent was

to take it to court. I spent over 10 years on the " experimental medicine band

wagon " because I trusted that my doctors were feeding me effective medication or

directing me to proven forms of therapy. I was afraid to question them. I was

subjected to sugar injections in the spine, cortisone injections, acupuncture,

light exercise, heavy exercise, name it. Nothing worked. The doctors would shrug

and come up with " well, we tried " . " We tried ? " , bull, they tried. I suffered.

The one time I requested that a doctor tell me something about a newly

prescribed medication, he asked me if I was going to question everything he

said. My immediate reaction ? To apologize like a little kid and tell him that I

wouldn't do it again ! Was I naive and stupid or what ?

People in professions that hold that much power over the general public

specifically over people in need due to disease, illness, disability, should be

held much more accountable than the average Joe. If " Joe " comes to my door and

tells me to take a certain pill, I'll tell him to go take a " flying trip "

somewhere. On the other hand if my doctor tells you the same thing, you'd

probably do it. Hell 10 years ago I did do it, time and again. After all, the

docs have my best interest at heart, unlike Joe...right ?

It's time to demystify medicine. Most of the doctors I know need to step

down from the mountain once in a while and come see how the " common folk " are

living. As for the others who are already walking among the common folk, thank

you. The bad apples make the good ones seem that much better. Remember the old

days when a company would keep someone on the payroll even if they had a nasty

disposition if they were consistently great at their job ? This is 1998, these

days are gone. A physician or other professional who doesn't listen to his

client, who makes wild claims, unsubstantiated statements and deceives his

clients is not worthy of the title on his diploma and should be retired. If his

peers won't do it, perhaps our refusal to use his/her services will.

For the record, (I've already posted this shortly after I joined the list),

I do have a doctor I interviewed. In fact we interviewed each other. I brought

my medical file to him, let him read it, told him some about myself, told him

what I expected and after giving it some thought, he took me on as a patient.

We've been together for 10 years now and together, we manage my pain and make my

life more bearable. Every so often, we run tests to make sure there are no new

problems. I see him regularly often just to talk (I talk he listens, then he

talks and I listen) about possible new treatments or his fishing trips,

whatever. He is indeed a special man and a caring physician but just as I would

not label all physicians as incompetents, I also will not give them blind trust

because my physician is above reproach in my eyes. They must each earn their own

reputation based on their own merit and not based on some general belief that

they can do no wrong.

Ray, I don't know what to tell you. I could say it's disgraceful of you to

have been faking all these years but it wouldn't be funny. I can perhaps make a

suggestion. The special person you seek must be found by special means. Could

you try to make it to some clinics in your area and just ask for an appointment

to talk to the doc. Just give them a call first if you want but don't be

specific about your need unless you have the actual doctor on the line. The

receptionist will undoubtedly ask what it's about. Just say you're looking for a

new physician and you just want to talk to the doctor...for free. Chances are,

the majority won't let you in. If you're lucky (and I sincerely hope you are ),

one will... That's what I did. I was refused about a dozen times before I met

" doctor right " . I'll never regret the trouble I put myself through.

Please let us know what comes of this. You may be up for a rough time. We'll

be here to listen if you feel the need to vent off some frustration.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Ken wrote: " Why does pain have to be such damn hard work! "

Oh, how true! It drives me crazy when folks who don't live with chronic

pain say things like, " You seem so preoccupied with your health. " Only because

it hurts!

Ray

[Guest guest]

Ray,

Maybe you could get 2 doctors to work together with you, or is that

an oxymoron? For instance, if you're in range of a specialist in PM & R,

they are generally up to their gills in chronic conditions & have to

deal with chronic pain. Also, some anasthesiologists have become

involved as a specialty or sub-specialty.

This is sort of going in the direction of creating your own

treatment team. While it would be good to have a knowledgeable

rheumatologist who is not in early senility, it would also be good to

have some local people you could get help with pain control, or/and

intervention when possible without having a long haul. I think you are

more afflicted with symptoms than starving for a 'best' diagnosis.

For me, I had a dynamite rheumatologist who Rxd anti arthritics &

pain meds (oral)

and a physiatrist who did trigger points & other pain treatments, who

could shoot my back with marcaine when things got intolerable, giving me

some respite. He also had PTs and related equipment that helped a great

deal.

Here in Las Vegas, which has much better per-capita medical care

than I've seen elsewhere, I have a primary who is an Osteopath, & while

he makes no presumptions of being expert in chronic pain, is very

rational, logical & thorough, & at least as good as my former docs. Also

have a very good neurologist & access to PT & etc. as I may need.

Although 'big dogs' bought up some historically excellent hospitals,

they have had to either return to good quality of care or sell to

someone who would; and the treatment staff has largely remained. For the

most part they are very good with high standards.

With my background in healthcare, I am not one to give idle

compliments.

So basically I am suggesting that you need a few good docs.

Ken

H. R. Neal wrote:

>

>

> Ken wrote: " Why does pain have to be such damn hard work! "

>

> Oh, how true! It drives me crazy when folks who don't live

> with chronic pain say things like, " You seem so preoccupied

> with your health. " Only because it hurts!

>

> Ray

>

[Guest guest]

HI Ray,

Boy, I have had the same thought cross my mind about interviews. But I

still don't think it would work that well, because I cannot tell you the

number of times my first 2 or 3 visits went very well, with the doc

being so very nice while they ran oall those expensive tests. Then after

that, just like what you are talking about. Then, one time, when I

complained to his nurse that I was not pleased with the way he was

treating me as far as CFS goes, he had the audacity to call me up

personally before my next visit and tell me that he did not think he

would be able to work with me. No referrals, nothing. My husband, who is

also a physician, hit the ceiling. He told me he thought I should report

the guy to the medical board. He tells me that about a whole lot of

doctors that either I or others I know from our support group have gone

to. It is just a real tough world out there for patients and almost

impossible to get proper care. Then on top of that, we have these nuts

running around trying to send some of the only good ones left to jail.

Needless to say, I have really discouraged my son from wanting to be a

doctor. Now he is really confused about what to do but I feel he will be

able to find something that he will be more satisfied with in the long

run.

With things the way they are in medicine now, we will eventually not

have anyone left to do much treating and what will be done will be

strictly dictated by those in administrative positions. Talk about

shooting ourselves in the foot.

And Ray, is there anyway possible that you could reset your font to a

larger print. I am not that old, but the small print sure does strain

the eyes!

Take care and I really think you need to pass on this guy.

Vickie

H. R. Neal wrote:

> Ken,Good idea about starting with medical school for referral. I'll

> try that. Our nearest med school is in City, TN, about an

> hour away by car. Hey, at least the doc didn't refer me to a

> psychiatrist! I would have really exploded on that. Like too many of

> the rest of us, I'm just " too

> pleasant. " ----------------------------------------------------

> Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

> * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

> http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!) or,

> * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

> 14278868@...

> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

> Ray in Virginia

>

> Re: New Doctor Gives Old LinesHi

> Ray,

> Sounds like this doc started off like a good

> rheumatologist, taking a very god history, but is somewhat

> lost in history himself. Maybe 1800's or so.

> Interview? Great idea. But you shouldn't have to pay for

> it, and I think the better doc would understand completely.

> Maybe this doc should be taking his own medicine (that's

> what witchdoctors do, isn't it).

> How about starting with the chief of rheumatology at a

> good teaching hospital, & working your way down, if

> necessary, instead of up from the abyss.

>

> Ken

>

> H. R. Neal wrote:

>

> > Went to see a new Rheumatologist yesterday because my

> > doctor retired. Checked with his office staff to see if

> > he had any other patients with my condition before I made

> > appointment. I have Reiters Syndrome a Reactive Arthritis

> > diagnosed 24 years ago at Vanderbilt University Medical

> > Center Rheumatology Clinic, Nashville, TN, and confirmed

> > by three other university medical center rheumatology

> > clinics since that time, plus consistent with diagnosis

> > and treatment protocols of all but one doctor I've seen

> > since then. This new doc does his exam, asks his

> > questions, then says, " I don't think you have Reiters. " I

> > ask, " Then what do I have? " He says he doesn't know. Now

> > who do I believe? All of the other doctors that have

> > treated me over the last 25 years or him who I have just

> > met? He discounts the fact that almost every other member

> > of my family has one form or another of Reactive Arthritis

> > and/or other autoimune diseases. I tell him that I am

> > seeing him because I cannot sleep due to pain in right hip

> > and right shoulder and feet, especially the heels of my

> > feet (very consistent with inflammation of Achilles'

> > tendon with Reiters). He says that the NSAID I'm taking

> > (Feldene) is obviously not helping me and takes me off of

> > the Feldene. Then he says that NSAID's and Asulfasalzine

> > and Methotrexate, etc., have too many side effects

> > compared to their usefulness and won't prescribe them. He

> > gives me Wygesic for pain, 65 mg. every 8 hours. I say,

> > " I took Darvon when I was in college for migraine

> > headaches. " " Oh, " he says, " Wygesic is not darvon. It

> > is very different. " Yet, when I go to pharmacist and ask

> > what Wygesic is, both pharmacist and the PDR tell me that

> > Wygesic and Darvon are the same drug. Then the doctor

> > says, " Lots of patients with RS have had good results

> > taking tetracyclines like minocycline. " So I say, " But I

> > thought you said I didn't have RS? " So he decides to wait

> > on prescribing the minocycline until we meet next week. To

> > top all of this off, the guy doesn't listen to me when I'm

> > talking. He asks questions and then cuts me off before

> > I've finished answering. He gets up and walks out of the

> > room while I'm still talking. Then he zeroes in on

> > urinary tract symptoms which for me are at an all time low

> > in terms of discomfort. I say I don't need any assistance

> > in that area, but it is all he keeps talking about. " I

> > think I'll send you to a urologist for a lazer

> > vaporization of the prostate. " I keep saying, " That is

> > not why I'm here today. I'm here because I have

> > intolerable pain in my hip and shoulder. " I called his

> > office this morning and ask why he has told me that

> > Wygesic is not the same as Darvon. His nurse says,

> > " Because it is combined with tylenol. " I already knew

> > that. Darvon-type compounds work best when combined with

> > aspirin or tylenol. But to say that they aren't the same

> > basic drug is quite misleading and in fact just plain

> > wrong. His nurse says, " He's been practicing for over 40

> > years and that's just the way he is. " Well, I'm 49 years

> > old and this is just the way I am...I think I'll go and

> > see a doctor with more up-to-date information and

> > knowledge of the disease who isn't trapped in a 40-year

> > old picture of the disease and its treatment. Things have

> > changed in 40 years. The old concepts of RS and its

> > sister disease Anklosying Spondilitis have undergone

> > tremendous changes in understanding of the disease and its

> > treatment. Has anyone had any luck with trying to

> > " interview " a doctor before you commit to undergoing a new

> > patient batter of tests and physical? I'd gladly pay

> > $50.00 for a fifteen minute interview to find out about

> > the doctor before making a real new patient appointment.

> > Haven't found anyone that's willing to do that yet. Told

> > my wife today (she's an OB/GYN) to ask around and find out

> > who her doctor-peers would go to if they had an arthritic

> > disorder. Hopefully, I can get a good doc that way. Ray

> > in

> > Virginia----------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 14278868 or,

> > * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center:

> > http://wwp.mirabilis.com/14278868 (go there and try it!)

> > or,

> > * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen

> > 14278868@...

> > For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/

> > Ray in Virginia

>

>

>