Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Dear Arwel I back Mohi on that - please share on the list Thanks laura On Monday, December 8, 2003, at 04:14 PM, Mohi Rezvani wrote: > Dear Arwel > Please share with us your experience on allergy testing on the list. I > am very interested to know as well. > > Many thanks > > Mohi > > > > ============================== > Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom > Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative > Medicine > Better Health, Chester > <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for > a better life > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Dear Arwel, It looks like it's going to have to be on the list unless someone else objects! What I sort of want to know is the expense it will entail, the training (there must be some!), and the various machines.. Which one is best (or you prefer), and by this I suppose I really mean the more reliable? Some seems to involve playing with energy fields as well - has it always have to be? And, unless you started practising and offering allergy testing, did it make any difference to how busy you are? And neither would I want this to distract from the fact that I am a herbalist, first and foremost. j-Christophe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 on 8/12/03 4:14 pm, Mohi Rezvani at mohi.rezvani@... wrote: > Dear Arwel > Please share with us your experience on allergy testing on the list. I > am very interested to know as well. > > Many thanks > > Mohi > >>>> arwel63@... 08/12/03 09:51:00 >>> > I have had considerable experience with allergy testing of all types, > including Vega, Bicom, BEST, and other devices. > > If you want to contact me off list I would be happy to discuss them all > with > you. Rather lengthy on-list, unless there are others that are also > interested. > > Kindest Regards, > > Arwel Yes, please share on-list. I have done a training and have a vega-type machine (different brand). I did it because I had a patient who was resonding well to treatment for skin rashes, but we couldn't crack the last bit. Vega testing identified some previously unsuspected foods, and he never looked back. I have reservations about using it in practice, though I still do at the moment. At best I feel it gives a snap-shot of " today " , and patients have to take that away and work with it and interpret it. There are loads of variables as to why you get a reading. Also, I find that advertising that I do allergy testing brings about a mismatch between what patients want (often a quick fix answer, two or three foods they can avoid here-after), and what I want to give, a holistic treatment etc etc.. You do get more patients, and a few take on herbal medicine. There's lots with IBS. I'm thinking of doing a poster around that, rather than around allergy testing. I'm also thinking that kineseology might get the sort of results I want for the minority of my patients, without all the fuss and hype of the machine. cheers Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Thanks for all your encouragement - here are some of my thoughts regardsing allergy testing! I think that a number of people ask for allergy testing if they are looking for a 'quick fix.' It is important to explain that allergy - or more appropriately - food intolerance testing will identify certain substances that the patient react to, but it does not necessarily sort out the cause. I see many patients with digestive problems, that have approached me initially for 'allergy testing' and I try and explain this before we start, and also explain that my treatment recommendations will be more wide ranging than just food avoidance. It is a shame that food allergy testing has had some bad press, and this - in my experience - is as a result of an unqualified practitioner carrying out tests (often in health food stores). By unqualified, I do not mean unqualified to carry out testing, but unqualified in any further therapy, such as herbal medicine or nutrition. Their advice is based purely on the results of the test, and consists of (usually) avoidance of certain foods. The underlying condition is rarely dealt with. I have personal experience with many devices, including Vega, Bicom, and similar devices, but the device I personally use is the BEST System, or the MSA-21. It is much more expensive than many of the other devices, but much more user-friendly. It allows you to print out results in easy to understand format, and the device itself is far easier to use than the other devices generally (in terms of the probing). Of course, testing with these devices is just the tip of the iceberg, and gives you an indication of 'food intolerance' not food allergies. It is possible to completely miss a peanut allergy with these devices, with devastating consequences if you tell someone who has been diagnosed by other means that they don't have the 'allergy' any longer. At the clinic I work, we also provide blood-based tests - which can be again food intolerance (based on IgG reactions) or true food allergies (and other allergies, such as airborne substances, pollen, etc.). Blood-based tests are more appropriate in certain situations, such as contact eczema, hay fever, asthma (although food intolerance may be equally important in these), suspected food allergies giving rise to angio-oedema or urticaria, or even anaphylaxis. These types of problems will not be investigated fully using food intolerance tests. Costs of tests vary - from £80 at our clinic for in-house tests, £20 for a 'Food Intolerance Indicator test,' through to £280 for a very comprehensive combined food intolerance and allergy screening test (which is only rarely indicated). Tests are available to other practitioners from the Clinic, and I would welcome any requests for information off-list, but any further general queries I will answer on-list. Allergy testing is popular, and does help to attract new clients - but remember that they may be looking for a quick-fix, and I would urge anyone to avoid trying to give them those but try and deal with the patient more holistically, as you would normally. Training varies according to the device you purchase - from very basic (next to nothing) to more comprehensive training covering allergies and many other aspects of tests possible using the device. I would be willing to provide training for anyone interested. Again please contact me off-list. I hope that this answers many of your queries, but please let me know if there is anything I have missed - I will probably think of something important I have forgotten to include over the next day or so! Kindest Regards, Arwel ============================== Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative Medicine Better Health, Chester <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for a better life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Sorry - I knew there would be something that I would leave out! Basically all the various devices - Vega, Bicom, BEST, etc. - measure skin resistance, that is the electrical resistance of the skin. Readings are taken at acupuncture points usually. Various research - a lot of it in Germany where many of these devices originate from - showed that electrical resistance measurement on the skin at acupuncture points are all the same, and there is a 'normal' range within which the readings are usually found. Deviations from these 'normal' ranges may be triggered by foods, and it is surmised that the patient is thus intolerant to those foods. Clinically it does seem to work, although there are many sceptics, as there is with kinesiology, and avoidance of any foods identified usually results in some resolution of symptoms. Again I would stress that to deal with the situation properly you should consider underlying causes and treat holistically, rather than merely with food avoidance. Kindest Regards, Arwel ============================== Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative Medicine Better Health, Chester <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for a better life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Dear Janet Can you please tell us that how your Vega test works. What are you measuring? and how ? I mean is it electrical field, resonance, biochemical/chemical agents? or any other factor. How reproducible is it? if you test the same person three-four times consecutively how variable the results will be? Then tell us how much the equipment is? how much is the running cost per patient (if you use any consumables) and how much you charge? Many thanks Mohi >>> janet@... 09/12/03 00:03:12 >>> on 8/12/03 4:14 pm, Mohi Rezvani at mohi.rezvani@... wrote: > Dear Arwel > Please share with us your experience on allergy testing on the list. I > am very interested to know as well. > > Many thanks > > Mohi > >>>> arwel63@... 08/12/03 09:51:00 >>> > I have had considerable experience with allergy testing of all types, > including Vega, Bicom, BEST, and other devices. > > If you want to contact me off list I would be happy to discuss them all > with > you. Rather lengthy on-list, unless there are others that are also > interested. > > Kindest Regards, > > Arwel Yes, please share on-list. I have done a training and have a vega-type machine (different brand). I did it because I had a patient who was resonding well to treatment for skin rashes, but we couldn't crack the last bit. Vega testing identified some previously unsuspected foods, and he never looked back. I have reservations about using it in practice, though I still do at the moment. At best I feel it gives a snap-shot of " today " , and patients have to take that away and work with it and interpret it. There are loads of variables as to why you get a reading. Also, I find that advertising that I do allergy testing brings about a mismatch between what patients want (often a quick fix answer, two or three foods they can avoid here-after), and what I want to give, a holistic treatment etc etc.. You do get more patients, and a few take on herbal medicine. There's lots with IBS. I'm thinking of doing a poster around that, rather than around allergy testing. I'm also thinking that kineseology might get the sort of results I want for the minority of my patients, without all the fuss and hype of the machine. cheers Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Dear Arwel Thank you very much for your explanation. It was very informative but I am sorry to be daft can you tell us what your BEST System or MSA-21 actually measure? Thanks Mohi >>> arwel63@... 09/12/03 09:20:58 >>> Thanks for all your encouragement - here are some of my thoughts regardsing allergy testing! I think that a number of people ask for allergy testing if they are looking for a 'quick fix.' It is important to explain that allergy - or more appropriately - food intolerance testing will identify certain substances that the patient react to, but it does not necessarily sort out the cause. I see many patients with digestive problems, that have approached me initially for 'allergy testing' and I try and explain this before we start, and also explain that my treatment recommendations will be more wide ranging than just food avoidance. It is a shame that food allergy testing has had some bad press, and this - in my experience - is as a result of an unqualified practitioner carrying out tests (often in health food stores). By unqualified, I do not mean unqualified to carry out testing, but unqualified in any further therapy, such as herbal medicine or nutrition. Their advice is based purely on the results of the test, and consists of (usually) avoidance of certain foods. The underlying condition is rarely dealt with. I have personal experience with many devices, including Vega, Bicom, and similar devices, but the device I personally use is the BEST System, or the MSA-21. It is much more expensive than many of the other devices, but much more user-friendly. It allows you to print out results in easy to understand format, and the device itself is far easier to use than the other devices generally (in terms of the probing). Of course, testing with these devices is just the tip of the iceberg, and gives you an indication of 'food intolerance' not food allergies. It is possible to completely miss a peanut allergy with these devices, with devastating consequences if you tell someone who has been diagnosed by other means that they don't have the 'allergy' any longer. At the clinic I work, we also provide blood-based tests - which can be again food intolerance (based on IgG reactions) or true food allergies (and other allergies, such as airborne substances, pollen, etc.). Blood-based tests are more appropriate in certain situations, such as contact eczema, hay fever, asthma (although food intolerance may be equally important in these), suspected food allergies giving rise to angio-oedema or urticaria, or even anaphylaxis. These types of problems will not be investigated fully using food intolerance tests. Costs of tests vary - from £80 at our clinic for in-house tests, £20 for a 'Food Intolerance Indicator test,' through to £280 for a very comprehensive combined food intolerance and allergy screening test (which is only rarely indicated). Tests are available to other practitioners from the Clinic, and I would welcome any requests for information off-list, but any further general queries I will answer on-list. Allergy testing is popular, and does help to attract new clients - but remember that they may be looking for a quick-fix, and I would urge anyone to avoid trying to give them those but try and deal with the patient more holistically, as you would normally. Training varies according to the device you purchase - from very basic (next to nothing) to more comprehensive training covering allergies and many other aspects of tests possible using the device. I would be willing to provide training for anyone interested. Again please contact me off-list. I hope that this answers many of your queries, but please let me know if there is anything I have missed - I will probably think of something important I have forgotten to include over the next day or so! Kindest Regards, Arwel ============================== Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative Medicine Better Health, Chester <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for a better life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 << Not at all. I would prefer informed intuition. But if one is measuring a clearly reductionist parameter, such as electrical resistance, by using a mechanistic means (the machine), I am not sure how this can be related to energetic phenomena. Indeed, it seems doubtful that energetic phenomena, by virtue of escaping freely from reductionist definition at all, can submit to mechanistic analysis in the current age. Chenery Rutland Biodynamics Ltd >> You've completely lost me with this answer!!! Kindest Regards, Arwel ============================ Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative Medicine Better Health Limited, Chester <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for a better life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Hi Jean I have always been very sceptical about allergy tests and had always believed the only way to test foods was avoidance and trial but then last year Robyn sent me some homeopathic hayfever remedies from The British Institute for Allergy and Environmental Therapy, it seemed to really help my son, although he didn't start until late season. This institute has a good reputation and I decided to do the course very open minded. it costs £1000 + 2 wends away. The allergy testing is muscular/kinseology The first wend -1st day completely unimpressed, had a real problem trying to grasp the method and wasn't even convinced when I was being tested. 2nd day, all clicked, impressed and was inspired to continue. When I got back home and practised on family I lost all faith in doing it again, I just couldn't be sure of results, intended to keep practising but my heart just wasn't in it and I haven't finished the course. I know of a couple of other herbalists who have done this course and again they felt very similar. A Kinseologists was also doing the course, she used a different technique which seemed much better and it was when I partnered with her that it all felt right and the results seemed more definate, so there might well be others who have done this course and persevered, with a totally different story to tell. The Institute is in Wales, nr Aberystwyth Tel. 01974 241376 Chris Re: allergy testing I have been thinking of learning some form of allergy testing as a way to get a few more patients. I have to say I am sceptical about the vega type testing. I think it seems like there are too many variables that may affect the result - is this the case? I think I was also put off by the cost of the equipment which was about £1500 including training. I also wondered about learning kinesiology as this would eliminate the need for expensive equipment. Does anyone have experience of using this as a diagnostic tool? Who teaches this so I can find out more? Any suggestions Cheers Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Hello all, raises a question I've had for some time. Many years ago I saw a practitioner who incorporated Vega testing in her practice. She didn't perform the actual testing herself, but had various assistants do the work throughout the time I saw her (about 12 months). I noticed that if one of her assistants did the testing I would be sensitive to a particular list of foods and if another assistant tested me, the list would change. The lists stayed pretty stable for each assistant, but were never the same as each other. I came to the conclusion that practitioners can influence the tests, given that in other forms of energetic work those conducting a given process need to be " a clear vessel " . Comments? Cheers, Kerry arwel63@... wrote: >In a message dated 10/12/2003 18:18:17 GMT Standard Time, >herbalist@... writes: > > > >>I would be interested to know how a machine tests for energetics. What >>about >>the energetic input from the practitioner ? Is there a dowsing element >>involved? >> >> Chenery >>Rutland Biodynamics Ltd >> >> >> > >Now you are into areas of physics that I do not understand. I try and keep >things simple, accepting that the devices measure the electrical resistance of >the skin. That I can understand. How the energetics - or perhaps more >appropriately put the electro-magnetic properties - affect that electrical circuit >is somethingI cannot understand or explain more fully, whereas other probably >can - I am sure there is plenty of information out there about these devices. > >As to whether there is a dowsing element - how do you explain dowsing? Does >one person's electro-magnetic energy field affect the circuitry of the system >being used? Probably, but that affect should not alter for each reading >that you take. > >I get the impression that you are more confident with the biochemical / >immunological methods of testing for allergies, but there is no doubting in my mind >that testing using these various devices can help in overall patient >management and the success of treatment programmes. > >Kindest Regards, > >Arwel > >============================ >Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom >Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative Medicine >Better Health Limited, Chester ><A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... for a better life > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 I have to agree. In over 20 years of practice, I have never found any allergy-testing machines / hair analysis/ etc. really reliable. In the end, the most effective method is an elimination diet followed by challenging. This takes time and requires a high level of commitment and compliance from the patient, but does yield reliable and reproduceable results. Ned At 00:10 13/12/2003, you wrote: >The question is not to be closed to that possibility, the problem is that >what is available now and promoted as such has been show unreliable, not >reproductible even by the same operator and eventually ineffective in the >long term for patients. > >I would honestly rather use the services of someone well trained in >applied kinesiology/muscular testing rather that one of those machines. > >It does not mean research with them should stop, but not at the expense of >patients. > >OK??? > >Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD. > " The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind " > Re: allergy testing > > > In a message dated 12/12/2003 04:30:42 GMT Standard Time, jroz@... > writes: > > > " The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind " > > > > As you own quote says, do not be closed to the possiblity that allergy > testing with these devices can be a useful tool in helping to treat > real patients > ...! > > Yes, there are disadvantages, as there is with any method of testing > allergies, as there is with any test for anything. > > Kindest Regards, > > Arwel > > ============================ > Arwel MB BCh Dip.Phyt. DIHom > Medical Herbalist and Practitioner in Complementary and Alternative > Medicine > Better Health Limited, Chester > <A HREF= " www.betterhealth.ltd.uk " >www.betterhealth.ltd.uk</A> ... > for a better life > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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