standardised extracts

[Guest guest]

I missed the recent queries about standardised extracts-sorry, was too busy to

check my mail.

Just to let you know-there is a workshop/informal discussion scheduled for

Glasgow conference with myself and Ally Broughton. The research group is also

currently writing a report to members giving exactly the sort of info queried.

We need to know what you want to know!

So pleeeeease fill in your questionnaire if you havn't already done so!

(end of nag)

Non

[Guest guest]

Alison

Most herbalists want organic, quality, reliable (in terms of actives) herbs

and want our patients to have the best possible medication. So we go to all

that trouble sourcing wonderful herbal material and then mix it with pure

alcohol, which as we know is highly toxic. I even remember as a neophyte

practitioner scratching my head over some patients wondering how on Earth I

could give them medicine as they had some reason for not taking alcohol, I

was so reliant on tinctures ( as we all still seem to be).

Cant you see my point? It's like refining the highest quality pure, gold and

then mixing it with tin and calling it quality.

The reason tinctures are so unpalatable is not just because of the taste of

the herb but because its like taking a shot of vodka. We dish this stuff out

to kids as well.

It is interesting to look historically/commercially at how we herbalists

came to this reliance on tinctures. We (qualified herbalists) occupy a tiny

place in the herbal industry and claim to be the authority on herbs but

there are far better and more user friendly extracts available to patients

over the counter in the health food stores in capsules and tablets or

powders. We are standing still whilst the world of herbal extracts has left

us behind...at the bar!

Stuart Fitz

[Guest guest]

Stuart Fitz wrote:

> So we go to all

> that trouble sourcing wonderful herbal material and then mix it with pure

> alcohol, which as we know is highly toxic.

.... dunno. Our metabolism manufactures some alcohol on its own, too. A healthy

liver can handle moderate amounts of alcohol just fine. A glass of wine of an

evening is rather relaxing, and therefore, good for the heart. If the wine is

red you get lots of flavonoids as well... so don't diss ALL alcohol, eh?

(Personally, I'm partial to a nice single malt whisky, or to some V.S.O.P.

cognac. Yum!)

> Cant you see my point? It's like refining the highest quality pure, gold

> and then mixing it with tin and calling it quality.

Thing is, if you have high-quality herbs that you have gone to great trouble

to obtain, the best way to preserve MOST of them is to tincture them.

And you get the most zing per gram of herb -- if you tincture them properly,

that is.

Now I have no idea how BritMedHerbalist tincture strenghts compare on that

point to USHerbalist tincture strength... I'm mercan-trained, and use 1:5 60%

(or so) for dried herb and 1:2 95 % for fresh herb. My tinctures last for

_years_, except for the obvious short-keepers like Capsella and Lobelia.

Of course, it's folly to tincture things like mallows (which work because of

mucilage, which, in alcohol, transforms to simple carbs) or nettles (which

work because of minerals trace elements etc., which don't get extracted into

alcohol). But for most herbs, alcohol is the way to go.

Cheers

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 17/04/2003, you wrote:

>Most herbalists want organic, quality, reliable (in terms of actives) herbs

>and want our patients to have the best possible medication. So we go to all

>that trouble sourcing wonderful herbal material and then mix it with pure

>alcohol, which as we know is highly toxic. I even remember as a neophyte

>practitioner scratching my head over some patients wondering how on Earth I

>could give them medicine as they had some reason for not taking alcohol, I

>was so reliant on tinctures ( as we all still seem to be).

Stuart, there are many European traditions that combine herbs with alcohol,

though possibly not in the dry Welsh counties - digestive bitters,

vermouths (the Balkan ones are far more interesting than the mass-produced

Italian/French varieties), tinctures in vodka (nalewka in Polish, nastoika

in Russian).

>The reason tinctures are so unpalatable is not just because of the taste of

>the herb but because its like taking a shot of vodka.

If only. They are usually unpalatable, if not downright

disgusting, because palatability never featured in our training, and there

was a tendency to forget that bitters should be used with discretion. We

should have had a module designed by someone from the cocktail industry

instead of continuing the heroic medicine tradition that eventually drove

patients into the less threatening world of homeopathy. I was certainly

never taught to ask patients if they found certain herbs offensive - I

personally dislike aniseed, liquorice and ginger, and find nettle juice

loathsome.

>We dish this stuff out

>to kids as well.

Count yourself lucky that you were never medicated with pepper vodka.

Personally I find that most children these days prefer to down a small

amount of tincture than gag on a cup of chamomile tea, assuming they are

prepared to take any herbal medicine at all.

The best of health,

Krystyna

[Guest guest]

KrystynaKrzyzak wrote:

>

> was a tendency to forget that bitters should be used with discretion.

Bitters in tincture: my standby is Mahonia root (Berberis works as well)

(I tincture them at 1:5 60 %) in a separate bottle.

Dose: 30 drops or so 20-30 minutes before meals. Clients have no problem with

that, especially after they notice their digestive troubles go away.

Bitters in teas: remember to add taste modifiers. And a tea that's sweetened

with a little honey is better than a tea that isn't drunk at all, so if they

cautiously ask " can I... " I tell them " yes, just don't overdo it " .

> I was certainly

> never taught to ask patients if they found certain herbs offensive - I

> personally dislike aniseed, liquorice and ginger, and find nettle juice

> loathsome.

.... oh. I taste all and any tincture blends before I give them to clients, and

ask them for their opinion on them, too, before they trundle off with their

herbs. Because if it tastes vile, chances are they won't take them, and herbs

that stay in the cupboard don't do all that much good.

Taste modifiers for teas: most of my clients quite like licorice root, and

they get that, then; thyme, hyssop and peppermint (and also Mentha

longifolium - dunno what that's in English) are some others, as are

codonopsis root and ginseng leaf (which I wish was available elsewhere than

Blessed Herbs, Massachusetts, USA).

Ginseng leaf works pretty much like ginseng root; it's at most 1/10 of the

price of the cheapest ginseng root; it's mostly just thrown away (what a

_waste_!), and it tastes good, too.

That reminds me - I'll go chew on a couple codonopsis bits. Yum!

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

[Guest guest]

The issues surrounding standardised extracts, and indeed the whole repetoir of

herbs in our pharmacy are indeed complex and interesting. Firstly

standardisation is much more difficult than it first seems. It is relatively

easy for a company to put out a specification, but validating that specification

is a very different issue. In order to standardise, one has to validate ones

testing methodology, and this is no simple task. The Methods Validation

Programme, now under the eigis of NSF is the only serious group, which to my

knowledge is undertaking this work. A consortium of businesses each put in a

minimum of $25,000, just to be allowed to participate. The MVP now has a dozen

or so methods validated in conjunction with the Association of Organic and

Analytical Chemists. Costs so far run into hundreds of thousands to validate 12

analytical operating procedures. To further demonstarte the point on how

difficult this question actually is, one merely needs to look at the experience

of Schwabe, a huge Phytopharmaceutical company, which produces EGB761, the most

widely used Ginkgo extract. When United States Pharmacopoeia was developing its

Ginkgo monograph, scientists testing EGB 761 found it to be out of specification

by about 20%, due purely to issues in the testing methodology. numerous examples

of this abound. One futrther example are the testing methods for hypericin,

which vary hugely when using infra red spectrophotometry vs HPLC. A semi clever

lab can make just about anything meet or fail a given specification. So, while

it is true to say that there are certainly different extract types in the OTC

market place than are typically used by herbalists, this does not equate to

(m)any of them being better. One simply has to look at the number of products

not meeting label claim when tested. Herbal medicine is simply not at that point

of sofistication whereby, for the most part we need genuine standardisation.

Many of us use a total solids specification within our tinctures and extracts,

which when combined with some basic tests on raw materials can give a high level

of confidence in the extract produced. We don't know exactly the composition,

but a TLC plate showing the appropriate bands and a solids content at least lets

us know that we have everything we need in the extract and that we have

extracted the plant material efficiently. Granted, it is possible to perform

standard assays for total alkaloids and a few other things, but let's face it,

we often have no clue what is doing what in our medicines.

As for alcohol as a poison, come on, most things become poisons at some dose or

other. On saying that there are certainly ways to lower the alcohol in our

medicines and improve the taste of them at the same time. Using a fluid extract,

then adding this to a glycerin and fruit juice concentrate base can hide all

manner of fowl tastes and still provide a medicine with the equivalent strength

of a tincture, while reducing the alcohol content by a factor of three (or five

if you use weak tinctures). I would argue that many are simply lazy when it

comes to prescribing practices.

It is interesting that we jump to such questions, when as a group we still

cannot agree on basic questions such as dosage ranges for many of our herbs.

Some swear by mega dosing, others by drop dosing. Is there typically a dose

response curve or does it depend on some vitality issue. Does a fresh herb

extract offer something that a dried herb extract does not, or does it typically

just contain more water?? Often the answer is it depends. Fresh Lobelia is

clearly more active than dried Lobelia, as is fresh Capsella. However, fresh

Pulsatilla is toxic, and fresh Tarax rad appears insipid. Among some, there is

a perception that fresh = better, yet justifying this position is difficult,

rather as again some believe drop dosing to be more efficacious. Believing

something to be true does not make it so, and unfortunately, " personal

experience " , does not pass the rigor of any scientific criteria (rule of threes

etc) and the fact that all of our prescriptions are taylored precludes any

direct comparisons. (Some exceptions such as Lobelia prove the rule)

Quality is a very diverse and interesting topic. Shortly, all herbal products

made for over the counter sale will have to be produced under conditions of Good

Manufacturing Practice (GMP) by sites holding a manufacturers Lisence.

Interestingly herbalists are arguing that this should not be the case for

supplies to practitioners..... Go figure.

Tony

Re: standardised extracts

At 10:16 17/04/2003, you wrote:

>Most herbalists want organic, quality, reliable (in terms of actives) herbs

>and want our patients to have the best possible medication. So we go to all

>that trouble sourcing wonderful herbal material and then mix it with pure

>alcohol, which as we know is highly toxic. I even remember as a neophyte

>practitioner scratching my head over some patients wondering how on Earth I

>could give them medicine as they had some reason for not taking alcohol, I

>was so reliant on tinctures ( as we all still seem to be).

Stuart, there are many European traditions that combine herbs with alcohol,

though possibly not in the dry Welsh counties - digestive bitters,

vermouths (the Balkan ones are far more interesting than the mass-produced

Italian/French varieties), tinctures in vodka (nalewka in Polish, nastoika

in Russian).

>The reason tinctures are so unpalatable is not just because of the taste of

>the herb but because its like taking a shot of vodka.

If only. They are usually unpalatable, if not downright

disgusting, because palatability never featured in our training, and there

was a tendency to forget that bitters should be used with discretion. We

should have had a module designed by someone from the cocktail industry

instead of continuing the heroic medicine tradition that eventually drove

patients into the less threatening world of homeopathy. I was certainly

never taught to ask patients if they found certain herbs offensive - I

personally dislike aniseed, liquorice and ginger, and find nettle juice

loathsome.

>We dish this stuff out

>to kids as well.

Count yourself lucky that you were never medicated with pepper vodka.

Personally I find that most children these days prefer to down a small

amount of tincture than gag on a cup of chamomile tea, assuming they are

prepared to take any herbal medicine at all.

The best of health,

Krystyna

List Owner

Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Beverley wrote:

> It is interesting that we jump to such questions, when as a group we still

> cannot agree on basic questions such as dosage ranges for many of our

> herbs.

And why should we? As long as tincture strengths aren't included as a matter

of course in all professional herbalist writings, any dosages you see there

for herb formulas are just pointers: include about so many parts of these

herbs, use your usual tincture strength, give the lot in your usual formula

dose.

> Some swear by mega dosing, others by drop dosing. Is there typically

> a dose response curve or does it depend on some vitality issue.

My take on that is, it depends

1. on the herbalist

2. on tincture strength, and

3. on whether the herbalist managed to pick the right herb(s) for her client.

Also, Hedley told me long ago that there's an affinity of herb to

herbalist. Which is why I like to tell everybody about, say, Epilobium.

It's a great herb, and so easy to pick, too! But alas, it's a tea herb, so has

no place in this particular discussion.

> Does a

> fresh herb extract offer something that a dried herb extract does not, or

> does it typically just contain more water??

A fresh herb tincture typically contains _less_ water, if you tincture at

1:2 95 %.

In my experience, a properly made 1:5 tincture of dried herb (at 50-60 %,

usually), is just about exactly the same strenght as the same herb, tinctured

fresh at 1:2 95 %.

There are some herbs that have to be done fresh - Avena milky seed springs to

mind - but for the majority, there's no difference in fresh vs. dry.

For maximum zing from SJW dried flowering tops it's best to use 1:5 70 % EtOH,

though - the result is almost darker than the same, fresh, tinctured at

1:2 95 %.

> Fresh Lobelia is clearly more active than dried Lobelia, as is fresh

> Capsella.

A tincture from _recently_ dried Capsella (1:5 50 %) is just as potent as one

made from fresh Capsella (1:2 95 %). The secret is, dried Capsella doesn't

keep very well. If you want dried Capsella to still work a year or two from

now (as a tea, chewed green parts, tincture, or whatever), you better keep

your dried Capsella, cleaned and crushed up, in a jar in the freezer.

Capsella tincture doesn't keep all that well, either; I generally renew mine

every year.

> However, fresh Pulsatilla is toxic,

.... it is not. But a tincture made from dried Pulsatilla is inert.

> and fresh Tarax rad appears insipid.

To me, Tarax rad is a tea plant. If you have to tincture it, it's best made

into a full-strength fluid extract.

Just my 2 cents, of course. But I do make tinctures and fluid extracts for my

clients. And I don't buy any for'em, because my alcohol license says I can't.

Ta ta

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

[Guest guest]

And I remember being bemused by Hein's dictum that there is far more

variation amongst patients than herbs........

Chenery

Rutland Biodynamics Ltd

Re: standardised extracts

> Beverley wrote:

>

> > It is interesting that we jump to such questions, when as a group we

still

> > cannot agree on basic questions such as dosage ranges for many of our

> > herbs.

>

> And why should we? As long as tincture strengths aren't included as a

matter

> of course in all professional herbalist writings, any dosages you see

there

> for herb formulas are just pointers: include about so many parts of these

> herbs, use your usual tincture strength, give the lot in your usual

formula

> dose.

>

> > Some swear by mega dosing, others by drop dosing. Is there typically

> > a dose response curve or does it depend on some vitality issue.

>

> My take on that is, it depends

> 1. on the herbalist

> 2. on tincture strength, and

> 3. on whether the herbalist managed to pick the right herb(s) for her

client.

>

> Also, Hedley told me long ago that there's an affinity of herb to

> herbalist. Which is why I like to tell everybody about, say, Epilobium.

> It's a great herb, and so easy to pick, too! But alas, it's a tea herb, so

has

> no place in this particular discussion.

>

> > Does a

> > fresh herb extract offer something that a dried herb extract does not,

or

> > does it typically just contain more water??

>

> A fresh herb tincture typically contains _less_ water, if you tincture at

> 1:2 95 %.

>

> In my experience, a properly made 1:5 tincture of dried herb (at 50-60 %,

> usually), is just about exactly the same strenght as the same herb,

tinctured

> fresh at 1:2 95 %.

>

> There are some herbs that have to be done fresh - Avena milky seed springs

to

> mind - but for the majority, there's no difference in fresh vs. dry.

> For maximum zing from SJW dried flowering tops it's best to use 1:5 70 %

EtOH,

> though - the result is almost darker than the same, fresh, tinctured at

> 1:2 95 %.

>

> > Fresh Lobelia is clearly more active than dried Lobelia, as is fresh

> > Capsella.

>

> A tincture from _recently_ dried Capsella (1:5 50 %) is just as potent as

one

> made from fresh Capsella (1:2 95 %). The secret is, dried Capsella doesn't

> keep very well. If you want dried Capsella to still work a year or two

from

> now (as a tea, chewed green parts, tincture, or whatever), you better keep

> your dried Capsella, cleaned and crushed up, in a jar in the freezer.

> Capsella tincture doesn't keep all that well, either; I generally renew

mine

> every year.

>

> > However, fresh Pulsatilla is toxic,

>

> ... it is not. But a tincture made from dried Pulsatilla is inert.

>

> > and fresh Tarax rad appears insipid.

>

> To me, Tarax rad is a tea plant. If you have to tincture it, it's best

made

> into a full-strength fluid extract.

>

> Just my 2 cents, of course. But I do make tinctures and fluid extracts for

my

> clients. And I don't buy any for'em, because my alcohol license says I

can't.

>

> Ta ta

> Henriette

>

> --

> Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

> Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>

[Guest guest]

Henriette

And why should?

In my opinion it is likely that there is an optimal dose range for the majority

of the herbs we use, (alone or in combination), which may vary depending upon

the effect we are trying to obtain from a particular herb (for example

relatively low dosage of ginger as a carminative, higher for motion sickness)and

the use of any known accompanying agents providing additive/synergistic effects

but nevertherless a range still exists.

The question of tincture strengths not being included in herbalist writings is a

classic case of informal logic! Irrespective of this fact, not stating the

strength of a preparation used in a discussion paper is a fatal flaw in the

paper, not the proposal that we should be able to come to some agreement on

dosages.

Dose response curve vs vitality being dependent upont he herbalist. It would be

interesting, and I believ eventually essential to design a number of studies,

whereby the actual effect of the participation is accounted for in the study.

This could easily be achieved by a three arm study in which patients see a

herbalist (chosen from a given pool, based on an initial questionnaire to

determine the type (more scientific, more spiritual, etc)of practitioner suited

to the particular patient, then following the consultation either preparing the

prescription recommended by the practitioner or a placebo medicine. The

statistical analysis would then allow for the effect of both the practitioner

and the medicines.

Of course the actual physical dose is affected but he strength of the tincture,

I was anticipating either defining that or by referring back to the equivalent

raw material inclusion level.

On your third point, the dose is not dependent upon picking the correct herb

fopr the client, this affects the outcome measure.

A fresh herb tincture does not typically contain less water. If you tincture say

Hypericum at 1:2 95% the finished tincture will contain about 58% alcohol, since

there is about 375ml of water in 500g of Hypericum. Using the same start point,

which you have to do for the sake of comparison, the dried preparation would

finish at 1:2 95%. The equivalent amount of fresh hypericum required to make the

equivalent strength preparation to a 1:2 dried herb extract would be

approximately 2Kg. Clearly this would not be possible (without evaporation)

since 2Kg fresh hypericum contains about 1.5L of water. It is closer to say that

a 1:1 fresh Hypericum is equivalent to a 1:5 dried herb tincture.

Capsella and Anemone we will just have to disagree on.

I agree re dandelion root, but in the end if drop dosing is a preference, who

cares, 1 drop of FE, 3 drops of 1:3 tincture, or a massive 5 drops of a 1:5.

Tony

Re: standardised extracts

Beverley wrote:

> It is interesting that we jump to such questions, when as a group we still

> cannot agree on basic questions such as dosage ranges for many of our

> herbs.

And why should we? As long as tincture strengths aren't included as a matter

of course in all professional herbalist writings, any dosages you see there

for herb formulas are just pointers: include about so many parts of these

herbs, use your usual tincture strength, give the lot in your usual formula

dose.

> Some swear by mega dosing, others by drop dosing. Is there typically

> a dose response curve or does it depend on some vitality issue.

My take on that is, it depends

1. on the herbalist

2. on tincture strength, and

3. on whether the herbalist managed to pick the right herb(s) for her client.

Also, Hedley told me long ago that there's an affinity of herb to

herbalist. Which is why I like to tell everybody about, say, Epilobium.

It's a great herb, and so easy to pick, too! But alas, it's a tea herb, so has

no place in this particular discussion.

> Does a

> fresh herb extract offer something that a dried herb extract does not, or

> does it typically just contain more water??

A fresh herb tincture typically contains _less_ water, if you tincture at

1:2 95 %.

In my experience, a properly made 1:5 tincture of dried herb (at 50-60 %,

usually), is just about exactly the same strenght as the same herb, tinctured

fresh at 1:2 95 %.

There are some herbs that have to be done fresh - Avena milky seed springs to

mind - but for the majority, there's no difference in fresh vs. dry.

For maximum zing from SJW dried flowering tops it's best to use 1:5 70 % EtOH,

though - the result is almost darker than the same, fresh, tinctured at

1:2 95 %.

> Fresh Lobelia is clearly more active than dried Lobelia, as is fresh

> Capsella.

A tincture from _recently_ dried Capsella (1:5 50 %) is just as potent as one

made from fresh Capsella (1:2 95 %). The secret is, dried Capsella doesn't

keep very well. If you want dried Capsella to still work a year or two from

now (as a tea, chewed green parts, tincture, or whatever), you better keep

your dried Capsella, cleaned and crushed up, in a jar in the freezer.

Capsella tincture doesn't keep all that well, either; I generally renew mine

every year.

> However, fresh Pulsatilla is toxic,

.... it is not. But a tincture made from dried Pulsatilla is inert.

> and fresh Tarax rad appears insipid.

To me, Tarax rad is a tea plant. If you have to tincture it, it's best made

into a full-strength fluid extract.

Just my 2 cents, of course. But I do make tinctures and fluid extracts for my

clients. And I don't buy any for'em, because my alcohol license says I can't.

Ta ta

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

List Owner

Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Beverley wrote:

> A fresh herb tincture does not typically contain less water. If you

> tincture say Hypericum at 1:2 95% the finished tincture will contain about

> 58% alcohol, since there is about 375ml of water in 500g of Hypericum.

> Using the same start point, which you have to do for the sake of

> comparison, the dried preparation would finish at 1:2 95%.

A fresh herb tincture is best made at 1:2 95 %.

A dried herb tincture is best made at 1:5 50-60%.

That's your starting point for equivalent tinctures, because for maximum

strength you want the water either in the herb or in the menstruum.

A fresh herb tincture ends up containing about 70 to 80 % alcohol, because

there's _no way_ you can get all the water out of the fresh herb into the

tincture.

Recalculate the amount of water in a dried herb tincture from those ratios and

percentages. Don't use myrrh or cayenne as an example - those are tinctured

at 1:5 95 % dry, because you mainly want their oils and resins - just use a

normal run-of-the-mill dried herb tincture, at 1:5 60 %.

A fresh herb tincture, done properly, contains more alcohol than a dried herb

tincture, done properly.

Ta ta

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

[Guest guest]

Henriette

Unless I am mis understanding you, your statements are simply incorrect. The

dissolution caused by a solvent is the result of the interplay of dual forces.

These are penetration of the cellular matrix and the formation of a diffusion

gradient. The addition of the 95% alcohol to the fresh plant material will

therefore eventually create a homogeneous menstruum consisting of the alcohol

added and the water in the plant. The volume loss will be a menstruum loss not

purely a loss of plant water. Where do you get this data from?

It is also incorrect to generalise that fresh herbs are best made at 1:2 95% and

dried herbs at 1:5 50-60%. Where did you get this information from?? The solvent

system used has to vary depending on what you are trying to get from the plant.

Most polysaccharides and mucilagenous components are partially or totally

destroyed in such high alcohol concentrations. One in 5 is certainly not the

best preparation for a dried herb. Simply because this tends to be the

specification in the BHP, does not make it the best. In fact few practitioners

in the UK use 1:5 tinctures.

Tony

Re: standardised extracts

Beverley wrote:

> A fresh herb tincture does not typically contain less water. If you

> tincture say Hypericum at 1:2 95% the finished tincture will contain about

> 58% alcohol, since there is about 375ml of water in 500g of Hypericum.

> Using the same start point, which you have to do for the sake of

> comparison, the dried preparation would finish at 1:2 95%.

A fresh herb tincture is best made at 1:2 95 %.

A dried herb tincture is best made at 1:5 50-60%.

That's your starting point for equivalent tinctures, because for maximum

strength you want the water either in the herb or in the menstruum.

A fresh herb tincture ends up containing about 70 to 80 % alcohol, because

there's _no way_ you can get all the water out of the fresh herb into the

tincture.

Recalculate the amount of water in a dried herb tincture from those ratios and

percentages. Don't use myrrh or cayenne as an example - those are tinctured

at 1:5 95 % dry, because you mainly want their oils and resins - just use a

normal run-of-the-mill dried herb tincture, at 1:5 60 %.

A fresh herb tincture, done properly, contains more alcohol than a dried herb

tincture, done properly.

Ta ta

Henriette

--

Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

List Owner

Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Tony wrote:

> Unless I am mis understanding you, your statements are simply incorrect. The

> dissolution caused by a solvent is the result of the interplay of dual

> forces. These are penetration of the cellular matrix and the formation of a

> diffusion gradient. The addition of the 95% alcohol to the fresh plant

> material will therefore eventually create a homogeneous menstruum consisting

> of the alcohol added and the water in the plant. The volume loss will be a

> menstruum loss not purely a loss of plant water. Where do you get this data

> from?

Ed of HerbPharm in the US has measured the alcohol content of 1:2 95 %

tinctures. He told me a few years ago that it's closer to 80 % than the 60 %

I supposed it to be.

> It is also incorrect to generalise that fresh herbs are best made at 1:2

> 95% and dried herbs at 1:5 50-60%. Where did you get this information

> from??

I trained with , of the SWSBM, in Arizona, US.

UK herbalists use way weaker tinctures, so I'm not surprised at all that they

need teaspoon (or even tablespoon) doses where, with stronger tinctures,

20-30 drops (or even less - with fresh kava root, at 1:2 95 %, I get

excellent results with 1-3 drops, taken as needed) would suffice.

> The solvent system used has to vary depending on what you are trying

> to get from the plant. Most polysaccharides and mucilagenous components are

> partially or totally destroyed in such high alcohol concentrations.

But mallows and similar mucilaginous herbs are tea herbs. Why would you even

want to tincture them? Especially as teas have an additional bonus: you get

people to ingest liquids, which is good in things like urinary tract

infections ... and gut troubles. Two things I'd use mallows for.

> One in

> 5 is certainly not the best preparation for a dried herb. Simply because

> this tends to be the specification in the BHP, does not make it the best.

> In fact few practitioners in the UK use 1:5 tinctures.

Pretty much all US practitioners use them - if they use alcohol tinctures, and

not, say, glycerites.

1:5 60% (or 1:2 95 %) is also the strength found in health food stores over

here, be they made by Bioforce or locally. Elsewhere - I'm not sure about

Australians and NZers, but I do know that Mediherb makes strong tinctures.

I'd dare to venture that the UK practise of 1:3 25 % (or so) is the exception

among tincture makers. The reasons I've been given for the UKian low alcohol

tinctures is that you can't buy strong alcohol in the UK ... not true, if you

get an alcohol license, but if those ratios and percentages is what you and

everybody around you is used to - shrug. It is a waste of good herb, though.

I probably won't convince you, so I'll shut up now.

Cheers

Henriette

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Henriette Kress Helsinki, Finland

Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed