Re: Re: Steve - Kids

[Guest guest]

Speaking from personal experience, I grew up in a home where my parents divorced. My father had been largely absent from the home, even prior to the divorce. He was creating another family with another woman. Once he moved from the home, we rarely heard from him again, although he did pay child support.

I know that part of the reason for my weight problem is that I've been trying to fill up the empty hole inside, created by an inability to really trust another person - to trust that I won't be abandoned and replaced. My parents' choices definitely had an impact on me.

I don't "blame" them - but was absolutely committed to making sure I never did the same thing so I chose to not have children. (I also came of age just around the time the culture started supporting the "disposable people" ethic.)

The kids today are suffering for our baby boomer choices. It's a sad thing to see.

--L

-----Original Message-----From: thefatmanwalking_group [mailto:thefatmanwalking_group ]On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:31 PMTo: thefatmanwalking_group Subject: Re: Steve - Kidsbeing a divorced kid and watching others go through, i have seen bad handlings of divorce and good handlings. none of it is perfect though. the key is for the parents to keep the focus on the children and away from their feelings about each other. what also helps is having the foresight to seek counseling (ie, extra help) when needed. if that's done, a divorce with kids can be very functional. problem is most focus on how much they don't like each other and are hesitant to ask for help when needed. i've seen some very functional divorces when the parents are willing to follow these simple guidelines, and i've seen some very nasty divorces (including my parents') where folks were not willing to follow these guidelines.mho.susan, dc

[Guest guest]

I am getting email I believe should be directed onto to someone else.

RE: Re: Steve - Kids

Absolutely perfect analysis.

--L

-----Original Message-----From: thefatmanwalking_group [mailto:thefatmanwalking_group ]On Behalf Of ShanSent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:48 PMTo: thefatmanwalking_group Subject: Re: Steve - Kids> what I think it all boils down to is the difference between wantand need and how they are so confused in this society. so manyparents think their children need everything they see and do not knowhow to really make their children happy. ... the whole "keeping upwith the joneses" mentality of having to have what your neighbor has.it causes so much stress on the family as a whole. We should not forget that this is not accidental, nor is it parentsjust being stupid, lazy etc. This whole mindset has been efficientlybuilt up in people. Of course it's been around as an option for acentury and more, but it has been built into the dominant mainstreamway of life in the last 25 years or so.There is huge pressure on the schools to create extreme competitiveattitudes. Once out of school everyone is quietly terrified of jobloss, destitution, health breakdown etc So we had young people trainedto scrabble desperately in competition, and then further driven byfear of failure. Welfare nets have been shredded. The only way to be safe fromhomelessness, bailiffs etc is to have money. Added to that a massiveindustry (advertising) further trains people to judge each other bymaterial things. Companies dont pour billions into an advertising Next young adults are seduced and manipulated into debt. It startssmall and easy and with shocking speed the victim is deep in debtbecause it is never explained clearly how it works.So by the time the adult becomes a parent they are well and truly tiedup, trussed up. They are either brainwashed by massive corporationsinto the competitive, materialist lifestyle, or they've been driveninto debt, or both.Conveniently for the moneymakers parenting starts fairly early in lifebefore we learn how to fend all this off - if we ever do. Many peoplewould desperately love to get out from under but personal debt is nowat astronomical levels in the West. Whether it started as a foolishyoung desire for pretties or to manage bills in a bad patch in the endit makes little difference. There is no way out but to work long hoursfor years on end. Parenting then brings more costs and more exhaustion, more fear, moreinadequacy. And when in debt for thousands working the treadmill lifeadding a 50 or 100 to it for a treat seems as if it makes littledifference to the mountain to pay off, but it does, it mounts it upagain so easily. Another plastic saviour and so on, on and on.Exhausted frightened people on a treadmill are just as described, notattentive, not creative.Best of all, children parented by these absent stressed parents willturn to material things for comfort and a whole new generation of debtcows and consumer sheep moves steadily along the conveyor belt.Don't blame ordinary people for something that is hugely bigger thanany individual family. As I said those big corporations pay highlytrained teams to work out just how to herd us into just this condition. There IS hope if we link and help each other. But it's not in the main just about ordinary human greed. That wasalways there but we didn't have it so grossly exaggerated, peoplerobotically driven and brainwashed, trapped into skyhigh debt, as wedo now, 25 years ago. Not as a mainstream lifestyle for the majority.Meanwhile all the figures and stats tell us that the rich are gettingMUCH richer and the rest of us are getting poorer, less well educated(so we don't figure it out!), less healthy (so we don't cope well andfeel able to say No) The whole machine works very efficiently.Shan

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[Guest guest]

Alice,

Here is an added suggestion that worked for me as a kid. (I don't have any

kids of my own yet.) Go with your kids while exercising and they will be

more apt to do it because you are not just " telling them to do it. " Even

activities such as walking around a zoo, walking the neighborhood dogs, or

delivering newspapers (not sure what age is too early for this) are all

great activities masked as exercising. My wife and I use the TV as another

resource for sports and motivation. Channels such as OLN have great

features on the Tour de France, Ironman Triathlons, and other intriguing

activities that might help motivate you all do try something different like

bicycling, roller blading, or swimming. Some of our " on demand " channels

have yoga, pilates, and similar exercise related programming that is

beneficial.

Just thought I'd pass a few things along. I started running around age 12

and am quickly approaching 6000 straight days in June and 17 years in

December. It was all because my dad started a running program to lose some

weight himself and I ended up joining him for a 1/2 mile at first and then

longer distances.

> It is very hard to be a decent parent today. When you do what you

> know is right, you make your child feel different from his peers and

> somehow not as lucky. I feel fortunate to have had my child later

> in life. He is 12, I am 51 and my husband is 53. So I do put my

> foot down about TV and video games, and tell him I don't care what

> any other parent thinks or does. None the less, he has ended up

> overweight, partly due to child couch potato syndrome and partly due

> to school food, where every breakfast is a variation of a donut. For

> the past year we have made his breakfast and lunch, and implemented

> new rules. Thirty minutes of exercise every evening or NO video

> games. TV limited to one hour. Must lose weight to be able to get

> any new games. Although he has not lost pounds lately, he has lost

> a few inches. There are days now when he will do his exercise

> without being told.

>

> I think if we all threw our TVs out the window, we'd be so much

> better off for it. Yet I have not done it myself.

>

> Alice

>

>

>

>>

>>> what I think it all boils down to is the difference between

> want

>> and need and how they are so confused in this society. so many

>> parents think their children need everything they see and do not

> know

>> how to really make their children happy. ... the whole " keeping

> up

>> with the joneses " mentality of having to have what your neighbor

> has.

>> it causes so much stress on the family as a whole.

>>

>> We should not forget that this is not accidental, nor is it parents

>> just being stupid, lazy etc. This whole mindset has been

> efficiently

>> built up in people. Of course it's been around as an option for a

>> century and more, but it has been built into the dominant

> mainstream

>> way of life in the last 25 years or so.

>>

>> There is huge pressure on the schools to create extreme competitive

>> attitudes. Once out of school everyone is quietly terrified of job

>> loss, destitution, health breakdown etc So we had young people

> trained

>> to scrabble desperately in competition, and then further driven by

>> fear of failure.

>> Welfare nets have been shredded. The only way to be safe from

>> homelessness, bailiffs etc is to have money. Added to that a

> massive

>> industry (advertising) further trains people to judge each other by

>> material things. Companies dont pour billions into an advertising

>> Next young adults are seduced and manipulated into debt. It starts

>> small and easy and with shocking speed the victim is deep in debt

>> because it is never explained clearly how it works.

>>

>> So by the time the adult becomes a parent they are well and truly

> tied

>> up, trussed up. They are either brainwashed by massive corporations

>> into the competitive, materialist lifestyle, or they've been driven

>> into debt, or both.

>> Conveniently for the moneymakers parenting starts fairly early in

> life

>> before we learn how to fend all this off - if we ever do. Many

> people

>> would desperately love to get out from under but personal debt is

> now

>> at astronomical levels in the West. Whether it started as a

> foolish

>> young desire for pretties or to manage bills in a bad patch in the

> end

>> it makes little difference. There is no way out but to work long

> hours

>> for years on end.

>> Parenting then brings more costs and more exhaustion, more fear,

> more

>> inadequacy. And when in debt for thousands working the treadmill

> life

>> adding a 50 or 100 to it for a treat seems as if it makes little

>> difference to the mountain to pay off, but it does, it mounts it up

>> again so easily. Another plastic saviour and so on, on and on.

>> Exhausted frightened people on a treadmill are just as described,

> not

>> attentive, not creative.

>>

>> Best of all, children parented by these absent stressed parents

> will

>> turn to material things for comfort and a whole new generation of

> debt

>> cows and consumer sheep moves steadily along the conveyor belt.

>>

>> Don't blame ordinary people for something that is hugely bigger

> than

>> any individual family. As I said those big corporations pay highly

>> trained teams to work out just how to herd us into just this

> condition.

>> There IS hope if we link and help each other.

>> But it's not in the main just about ordinary human greed. That was

>> always there but we didn't have it so grossly exaggerated, people

>> robotically driven and brainwashed, trapped into skyhigh debt, as

> we

>> do now, 25 years ago. Not as a mainstream lifestyle for the

> majority.

>>

>> Meanwhile all the figures and stats tell us that the rich are

> getting

>> MUCH richer and the rest of us are getting poorer, less well

> educated

>> (so we don't figure it out!), less healthy (so we don't cope well

> and

>> feel able to say No) The whole machine works very efficiently.

>>

>>

>>

>> Shan

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> http://www.thefatmanwalking.com/

> Keep walking Steve!!!

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with most of this except the "schools competive" comment. Schools baby the kids - give them rewards for everything - A honor roll, AB honor roll, most improved...best this and that - have you every been to an awards ceremony? EVERYONE gets one. I think that creates a false sense of accomplishment for kids...then they get in the real world and they can't cope...because someone isn't giving them an award for "showing up" at work. I see the very best students today coming from immigrant families who have little and education is valued above all else. I also see a bright "white" group of kids that are not challenged because everything is watered down so everyone can pass standardized tests. The kids are bored...easily make A's...because the teachers are so delighted they aren't high maintenance students...and they earn their A's so easily they think life is a piece of cake...then they get into the REAL world and realize they

aren't that prepared...they were on easy street in high school. Schools need to be more competitive, and teachers need to stop teaching to a standardized test and teach to the top...challenge students more to think. Okay...sorry...I have just seen so much of the "dumbing down" effect. My daughter in law graduated Summa Cum Laude and I have no idea why. She went to teach school and couldn't make it thru the year...it was too demanding...and she was used to everything being easy. She says "REE" instead of "WE" and "Walmark" instead of "Walmart" - and many other grammatical mistakes. And she was at the top of her class???? Because she was blond, blue-eyed, and had a nice smile and always did her work did not make her smart. I don't understand it...when I went to school it was so competitive...and there were no "study groups" or "tutoring...You just had to do it on your own. I think it was

better... Hillary Clinton had a comment about the generation of young people today...and I don't think she said it correctly...because she lumped "all" of the kids together...but I have to agree a lot of them are soft. Shan wrote: > what I think it all boils down to is the difference between wantand need and how they are so confused in this society. so manyparents think their children need everything they see and do not knowhow to really make their children happy. ... the whole "keeping upwith the joneses" mentality of having to have what your neighbor has.it causes so much stress on the family as a whole. We should not forget that this is not accidental, nor is it parentsjust being stupid, lazy etc. This whole mindset has been

efficientlybuilt up in people. Of course it's been around as an option for acentury and more, but it has been built into the dominant mainstreamway of life in the last 25 years or so.There is huge pressure on the schools to create extreme competitiveattitudes. Once out of school everyone is quietly terrified of jobloss, destitution, health breakdown etc So we had young people trainedto scrabble desperately in competition, and then further driven byfear of failure. Welfare nets have been shredded. The only way to be safe fromhomelessness, bailiffs etc is to have money. Added to that a massiveindustry (advertising) further trains people to judge each other bymaterial things. Companies dont pour billions into an advertising Next young adults are seduced and manipulated into debt. It startssmall and easy and with shocking speed the victim is deep in debtbecause it is never explained clearly how it works.So

by the time the adult becomes a parent they are well and truly tiedup, trussed up. They are either brainwashed by massive corporationsinto the competitive, materialist lifestyle, or they've been driveninto debt, or both.Conveniently for the moneymakers parenting starts fairly early in lifebefore we learn how to fend all this off - if we ever do. Many peoplewould desperately love to get out from under but personal debt is nowat astronomical levels in the West. Whether it started as a foolishyoung desire for pretties or to manage bills in a bad patch in the endit makes little difference. There is no way out but to work long hoursfor years on end. Parenting then brings more costs and more exhaustion, more fear, moreinadequacy. And when in debt for thousands working the treadmill lifeadding a 50 or 100 to it for a treat seems as if it makes littledifference to the mountain to pay off, but it does, it mounts it

upagain so easily. Another plastic saviour and so on, on and on.Exhausted frightened people on a treadmill are just as described, notattentive, not creative.Best of all, children parented by these absent stressed parents willturn to material things for comfort and a whole new generation of debtcows and consumer sheep moves steadily along the conveyor belt.Don't blame ordinary people for something that is hugely bigger thanany individual family. As I said those big corporations pay highlytrained teams to work out just how to herd us into just this condition. There IS hope if we link and help each other. But it's not in the main just about ordinary human greed. That wasalways there but we didn't have it so grossly exaggerated, peoplerobotically driven and brainwashed, trapped into skyhigh debt, as wedo now, 25 years ago. Not as a mainstream lifestyle for the majority.Meanwhile all the figures and stats

tell us that the rich are gettingMUCH richer and the rest of us are getting poorer, less well educated(so we don't figure it out!), less healthy (so we don't cope well andfeel able to say No) The whole machine works very efficiently.Shan__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

, What a good dad you had. My 35 year old son still has a letter of appreciation from a 90 year old lady on his paper route whose paper he always put inside her storm door each morning so she would not have to walk outside to get it. Of course, he did not think of this himself, but did it at a suggestion from his Dad. Involved parents is the key, every time.

W.

Re: Re: Steve - Kids

Alice,Here is an added suggestion that worked for me as a kid. (I don't have anykids of my own yet.) >> >> >>http://www.thefatmanwalking.com/Keep walking Steve!!!

[Guest guest]

Every student I ever had that came into the school system from "home school" had a false sense of accomplishment. As bright as they were, most of them were behind and unable to be patient to wait for help - they were so used to "instant" help from a small setting. Many of them had socialization problems...and many of them had an inflated sense of their abilities. Shan wrote: > Involved parents is the key, every time.> W.Hm I keep finding myself in deep agreement with you.In 2003 Desforges did a study for the DfES (the governmentEducation dept UK) to locate which factors were the most influentialin school for a child's later education and career success. The studyexamined different teaching methods, family wealth and social status etcThe result

was a huge surprise - and an attempt was made to hush it upexcept a lot of people like me spread the news among home educatorsand alternative families so "they" couldn't! What Desforges discovered was that the single most important influencein a child's education was how involved their parents were with theeducation. The peak age for this was around 10 -12 where parents whoexpressed confidence in their kids abilities showed up as a commonfactor in life success afterwards. This fits with two major areas of my experience. One is that we havehome educated our son completely and years ago checked the researchabout home education: it showed kids educated at home as way ahead ofschool educated kids even where parents are poorly educated themselves!Secondly my husband and I have recently started a very small onlinehigh school, with classes via chatrooms (we are teachers, homeeducators, and trained in online

teaching). We have found that almostwithout exception the students who do the best with us are the oneswhose parents regularly contact us with questions, wanting to knowexactly what their student is doing with us. We can see that from theconversations with us these parents are obviously involved inreminding and supporting re homework, and doing fun things with theirkids. Some we have helped to understand that their compliments, as parents,are dragon magic - a "well done" or "that looks great" from a parentreverberates thro' a kid/young person's life, with more impact than aweek of all our hard work. (Many parents know this already.) Aparent's approval flashes through us in memory long after they are dead.My own extraordinary mother once said to me, joking 'I sometimes thinkall you need me to do is tell you I'm proud of you!' I saidabsolutrely seriously 'Yes mum. If you believe in me I can do

anything.'And for anyone who is thinking of the terrible acid of parents'disapproval and damage, from my previous career of 20 yrs as atherapist working with abuse survivors and others trapped in pain, Ilearned that approval and faith is homeopathic. Children who survive ghastly childhoods have the capacity to absorbexperiences of respect and approval wherever they can find them: agrandparent, neighbour, teacher etc. It is these smaller but definiteexperiences that lock on to something deep wityhin us, and equip uswith the knowledge that this is the spiritual food we need. Somethingin us knows, recognises what it is we need. Some children bask in a sun of approval: they are lucky in theirparenting. Others swim up towards the gleam of a distant sun from deepunder dark waters, sometimes through years of setbacks.Shan

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[Guest guest]

I would bet that their "socialization problems" were not bullying or dealing drugs or alcoholism. Is it not axiomatic that they would need some help in transitioning from one on one learning to a group setting? Did they get help or resentment in requiring help from an already overworked staff. What about students transferring from another school who might be behind in some areas and ahead in others. Would they not also require extra help? The phrase you used "bright as they were.." is a strong clue that the attitude was.... "Ok, they might be smart, but lets see what all we can find wrong."

No, I did not homeschool my children, but I did have one child that was brilliant, and she learned quickly to hide this, in fact in kindergarten. In the seventh grade, when I suggested she might test for the Duke University TIP program, the guidance counsellor said "oh no, she would never be a candidate for that"

I arranged it myself, and she recieved state honors in three categories and national honors in composite, and spent summers at Duke in enrichment classes through high school. On the basis of honors received outside of school and test scores, she received more scholarship offers than the rest of her highschool class put together. It still rankles, these eight years later, because she learned so well to hide her light under a bushel. On graduation day, her principle said " I will pray every day that Becca will start to utilize her gifts." I smiled and thanked her, but so wanted to say "Then why did all of you teach her so very well to hide them" The truth is, many teachers find the bright ones that stand out, even diffident, shy ones like my daughter a burden, who ask too many questions, and challenge false notions. They are either "cheeky" of "sullen". Sorry, too close to a sore point. Beth L., you are a teacher, too. Am I totally off base?

W.

Re: Re: Steve - Kids

Every student I ever had that came into the school system from "home school" had a false sense of accomplishment. As bright as they were, most of them were behind and unable to be patient to wait for help - they were so used to "instant" help from a small setting. Many of them had socialization problems...and many of them had an inflated sense of their abilities. Shan wrote: > Involved parents is the key, every time.> W.Hm I keep finding myself in deep agreement with you.In 2003 Desforges did a study for the DfES (the governmentEducation dept UK) to locate which factors were the most influentialin school for a child's later education and career success. The studyexamined different teaching methods, family wealth and social status etcThe result was a huge surprise - and an attempt was made to hush it upexcept a lot of people like me spread the news among home educatorsand alternative families so "they" couldn't! What Desforges discovered was that the single most important influencein a child's education was how involved their parents were with theeducation. The peak age for this was around 10 -12 where parents whoexpressed confidence in their kids abilities showed up as a commonfactor in life success afterwards. This fits with two major areas of my experience. One is that we havehome educated our son completely and years ago checked the researchabout home education: it showed kids educated at home as way ahead ofschool educated kids even where parents are poorly educated themselves!Secondly my husband and I have recently started a very small onlinehigh school, with classes via chatrooms (we are teachers, homeeducators, and trained in online teaching). We have found that almostwithout exception the students who do the best with us are the oneswhose parents regularly contact us with questions, wanting to knowexactly what their student is doing with us. We can see that from theconversations with us these parents are obviously involved inreminding and supporting re homework, and doing fun things with theirkids. Some we have helped to understand that their compliments, as parents,are dragon magic - a "well done" or "that looks great" from a parentreverberates thro' a kid/young person's life, with more impact than aweek of all our hard work. (Many parents know this already.) Aparent's approval flashes through us in memory long after they are dead.My own extraordinary mother once said to me, joking 'I sometimes thinkall you need me to do is tell you I'm proud of you!' I saidabsolutrely seriously 'Yes mum. If you believe in me I can do anything.'And for anyone who is thinking of the terrible acid of parents'disapproval and damage, from my previous career of 20 yrs as atherapist working with abuse survivors and others trapped in pain, Ilearned that approval and faith is homeopathic. Children who survive ghastly childhoods have the capacity to absorbexperiences of respect and approval wherever they can find them: agrandparent, neighbour, teacher etc. It is these smaller but definiteexperiences that lock on to something deep wityhin us, and equip uswith the knowledge that this is the spiritual food we need. Somethingin us knows, recognises what it is we need. Some children bask in a sun of approval: they are lucky in theirparenting. Others swim up towards the gleam of a distant sun from deepunder dark waters, sometimes through years of setbacks.Shan

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

I dont feel that the teachers felt she was a burden, so much as the class was probably at one level while she is at another.Here schools are so crowded, and the teacher has a hard time keeping the kids quiet and settled to teach what needs to be taught. I have 2 grads, 2 in public school, and 1 I homeschoool...so I see all sides.I know for a fact that the one on one attention he is getting works wonders in his growth.But isn't that true of all of us? We go to group seminars and wish we had one on one time with the speaker.Nowadays kids do great in school if they fall in the normal range of learning as their peers...those who are above and below are getting lost.My 6 year old will be starting a few 3rd grade subjects this summer. However, I do not feel he is gifted...he has just had lots of one on one time learning. Young kids are so much more capable of learning at this young age. It's not until they are older they tend to slack.Also keep in mind that different

kids learn in different ways; the ones who benefit most are those that are taught the way they learn best. This is why I feel strongly that us parents shouild begin teaching good eating habits and nutrition to our children. A lot of bad habits are born of ignorance Leenalabtrek1941 wrote: I would bet that their "socialization problems" were not bullying or dealing drugs or alcoholism. Is it not axiomatic that they would need some help in transitioning from one on one learning to a group setting? Did they get help or resentment in requiring help from an already overworked staff. What about students transferring from another school who might be behind in some areas and

ahead in others. Would they not also require extra help? The phrase you used "bright as they were.." is a strong clue that the attitude was.... "Ok, they might be smart, but lets see what all we can find wrong." No, I did not homeschool my children, but I did have one child that was brilliant, and she learned quickly to hide this, in fact in kindergarten. In the seventh grade, when I suggested she might test for the Duke University TIP program, the guidance counsellor said "oh no, she would never be a candidate for that" I arranged it myself, and she recieved state honors in three categories and national honors in composite, and spent summers at Duke in enrichment classes through high school. On the basis of honors received outside of school and test scores, she received more scholarship offers than the rest of her highschool class put

together. It still rankles, these eight years later, because she learned so well to hide her light under a bushel. On graduation day, her principle said " I will pray every day that Becca will start to utilize her gifts." I smiled and thanked her, but so wanted to say "Then why did all of you teach her so very well to hide them" The truth is, many teachers find the bright ones that stand out, even diffident, shy ones like my daughter a burden, who ask too many questions, and challenge false notions. They are either "cheeky" of "sullen". Sorry, too close to a sore point. Beth L., you are a teacher, too. Am I totally off base? W. Re: Re: Steve - Kids Every student I ever had that came into the school system from "home school" had a false sense of accomplishment. As bright as they were, most of them were behind and unable to be patient to wait for help - they were so used to "instant" help from a small setting. Many of them had socialization problems...and many of them had an inflated sense of their abilities. Shan

wrote: > Involved parents is the key, every time.> W.Hm I keep finding myself in deep agreement with you.In 2003 Desforges did a study for the DfES (the governmentEducation dept UK) to locate which factors were the most influentialin school for a child's later education and career success. The studyexamined different teaching methods, family wealth and social status etcThe result was a huge surprise - and an attempt was made to hush it upexcept a lot of people like me spread the news among home educatorsand alternative families so "they" couldn't! What Desforges discovered was that the single most important influencein a child's education was how involved their parents were with theeducation. The peak age for this was around 10 -12 where parents

whoexpressed confidence in their kids abilities showed up as a commonfactor in life success afterwards. This fits with two major areas of my experience. One is that we havehome educated our son completely and years ago checked the researchabout home education: it showed kids educated at home as way ahead ofschool educated kids even where parents are poorly educated themselves!Secondly my husband and I have recently started a very small onlinehigh school, with classes via chatrooms (we are teachers, homeeducators, and trained in online teaching). We have found that almostwithout exception the students who do the best with us are the oneswhose parents regularly contact us with questions, wanting to knowexactly what their student is doing with us. We can see that from theconversations with us these parents are obviously involved inreminding and supporting re homework, and doing fun things with theirkids. Some

we have helped to understand that their compliments, as parents,are dragon magic - a "well done" or "that looks great" from a parentreverberates thro' a kid/young person's life, with more impact than aweek of all our hard work. (Many parents know this already.) Aparent's approval flashes through us in memory long after they are dead.My own extraordinary mother once said to me, joking 'I sometimes thinkall you need me to do is tell you I'm proud of you!' I saidabsolutrely seriously 'Yes mum. If you believe in me I can do anything.'And for anyone who is thinking of the terrible acid of parents'disapproval and damage, from my previous career of 20 yrs as atherapist working with abuse survivors and others trapped in pain, Ilearned that approval and faith is homeopathic. Children who survive ghastly childhoods have the capacity to absorbexperiences of respect and approval wherever they can find them:

agrandparent, neighbour, teacher etc. It is these smaller but definiteexperiences that lock on to something deep wityhin us, and equip uswith the knowledge that this is the spiritual food we need. Somethingin us knows, recognises what it is we need. Some children bask in a sun of approval: they are lucky in theirparenting. Others swim up towards the gleam of a distant sun from deepunder dark waters, sometimes through years of setbacks.Shan Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

I homeschool my youngest and my 2 middle kids go to public school. I spend many hours helping and overseeing homework for the 2 while still teaching my youngest. Each of them has had to learn to wait their turn. As kids from any family with more than 1 child has had to learn at an early age. Also, they all have many frinds, so they also learn to take turns or wait there. I feel that your information may benot as broad as others who are invoplved with this.Also, aren't all children regardless, of where or how scholed; short on patience? How many of us have ben on the phone when our child wanted something? How many kids at an amusement park were excited about waiting their turn? As with any type of schooling, there are gong to be better mannered children than others. Parent activity does play a huge role in schooling a child. With schools as crowded as they are, teachers are not always able to answr or help every single child every day. Having a

parent who is willing to go over homework wiith a child is vital. Also, it makes the child feel we do care about them and what they are doing.Many older children love showing off to younger siblings too, the things they have learned; as they are proud of their accomplishments.To be honest, I don't care if every child does get an award at some point in the year; as long as it inspires that child to continue learning.Also, keep in mind, that many kida come from dysfunctional homes, so the only praise they get is from teachers or peers.Kids who have good feelings about learning are the ones who will strive to keep at it, even after they finish school.Many of us has a teacher we remember fondly who we felt really cared about how we did, and this helped us to pursue other things in our lives. I'm willing to bet that this teacher also was liberal with his/her praise.Also, at one award ceremony, I attended, many people were confused over a 5th grade student who was given an award

for good handwriting. However, what many people did not know was this little boy had been in a terrible accident and had to learn to write all over again. It was hos classmates who decided such an award was to be given.For that little boy that day, walking up to recieve his award was a huge milestone to him.Another child had lost his parents in a fire, and was having many problems adjusting; and he was quite pleased to recieve his award for most improved. So..yes lots of awards are given, and I for one am glad. Shouldn't every child be able to feel the pride of wealking up to get his award. Life is hard, and rewards are nice. Some people do get so busy with their lives that they do forget to praise or take foir granted people in their lives.Yet, people all thrive on it. From parents of children to people in workplaces.Wouldn't we all feel better if we recieved more praise than complaints. Studies show that a boss who praises and/or rewards

his employees for a good job; get better responses from the public and more quality in the work. Also, isn't many of our problems with our ownseves; especially where overeating is concerned, about a bad self opinion. If we give ourselves bad messages, then what are we showing to others about us, If we were told, or tell ourselves that we aren't worth it.....then how can we succeed. Sorry this is so long. LeenaBeth Black wrote: Every student I ever had that came into the school system from "home school" had a false sense of accomplishment. As bright as they were, most of them were behind and unable to be patient to wait for help - they were so used to "instant" help from a small setting. Many of them had socialization problems...and many of them had an inflated sense of their

abilities. Shan wrote: > Involved parents is the key, every time.> W.Hm I keep finding myself in deep agreement with you.In 2003 Desforges did a study for the DfES (the governmentEducation dept UK) to locate which factors were the most influentialin school for a child's later education and career success. The studyexamined different teaching methods, family wealth and social status etcThe result was a huge surprise - and an attempt was made to hush it upexcept a lot of people like me spread the news among home educatorsand alternative families so "they" couldn't! What Desforges discovered was that the single most important influencein a child's education was how involved their parents were with theeducation. The peak age for

this was around 10 -12 where parents whoexpressed confidence in their kids abilities showed up as a commonfactor in life success afterwards. This fits with two major areas of my experience. One is that we havehome educated our son completely and years ago checked the researchabout home education: it showed kids educated at home as way ahead ofschool educated kids even where parents are poorly educated themselves!Secondly my husband and I have recently started a very small onlinehigh school, with classes via chatrooms (we are teachers, homeeducators, and trained in online teaching). We have found that almostwithout exception the students who do the best with us are the oneswhose parents regularly contact us with questions, wanting to knowexactly what their student is doing with us. We can see that from theconversations with us these parents are obviously involved inreminding and supporting re homework, and doing

fun things with theirkids. Some we have helped to understand that their compliments, as parents,are dragon magic - a "well done" or "that looks great" from a parentreverberates thro' a kid/young person's life, with more impact than aweek of all our hard work. (Many parents know this already.) Aparent's approval flashes through us in memory long after they are dead.My own extraordinary mother once said to me, joking 'I sometimes thinkall you need me to do is tell you I'm proud of you!' I saidabsolutrely seriously 'Yes mum. If you believe in me I can do anything.'And for anyone who is thinking of the terrible acid of parents'disapproval and damage, from my previous career of 20 yrs as atherapist working with abuse survivors and others trapped in pain, Ilearned that approval and faith is homeopathic. Children who survive ghastly childhoods have the capacity to absorbexperiences of respect and approval

wherever they can find them: agrandparent, neighbour, teacher etc. It is these smaller but definiteexperiences that lock on to something deep wityhin us, and equip uswith the knowledge that this is the spiritual food we need. Somethingin us knows, recognises what it is we need. Some children bask in a sun of approval: they are lucky in theirparenting. Others swim up towards the gleam of a distant sun from deepunder dark waters, sometimes through years of setbacks.Shan Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

Well I do not know if America is really near the end as you say. Although I did meet people in college who could not spell correctly. How can somebody be in college who does not know how to spell? BerndAlice schrieb: Beth, I'm glad someone else has noticed this about American school. My son goes to public school (just finishing 7th grade). The school has (or HAD) a uniform policy. White or navy shirts, navy or khaki pants, with shirt tucked in. I was thrilled. But six years after the opening of the school, it is never enforced. The kids never tuck in their shirts and many of them got waivers so they don't have to wear the uniform colors. What are parents thinking? What are school administrators thinking? Why

do they get paid so much?Kids cannot spell because the system feels that any sort of writing must be encouraged, whether or not it is spelled correctly. Correcting the spelling will be too discouraging to the students. I'm sorry, but if you go for years spelling a word wrong, you will always spell it wrong. Same with grammar. The kids are rude. Behavior is seldom corrected. I helped with the math tutoring for a few months, and it was incredible. The kids just refused to do the work. They wanted to copy it, and eventually the teacher made that possible by showing them the work, step by step, while they copied. One eighth grader needed a calculator to multiply 8 times 100. And this is the TOP school in the district. It is frightening. America as we know it is near the end.Alice>> I agree with most of this except the "schools competive" comment. Schools baby the kids - give them rewards for everything - A honor roll, AB honor roll, most improved...best this and that - have you every been to an awards ceremony? EVERYONE gets one. I think that creates a false sense of accomplishment for kids...then they get in the real world and they can't cope...because someone isn't giving them an award for "showing up" at work. I see the very best students today coming from immigrant families who have little and education is valued above all else. I also see a bright "white" group of kids that are not challenged because everything is watered down so everyone can pass standardized tests. The kids are bored...easily make A's...because the teachers are so delighted they aren't high maintenance students...and they earn their A's so

easily they think life is a piece of cake...then they get into the REAL world and realize they aren't that prepared...they were on> easy street in high school. Schools need to be more competitive, and teachers need to stop teaching to a standardized test and teach to the top...challenge students more to think. > Okay...sorry...I have just seen so much of the "dumbing down" effect. My daughter in law graduated Summa Cum Laude and I have no idea why. She went to teach school and couldn't make it thru the year...it was too demanding...and she was used to everything being easy. She says "REE" instead of "WE" and "Walmark" instead of "Walmart" - and many other grammatical mistakes. And she was at the top of her class???? Because she was blond, blue-eyed, and had a nice smile and always did her work did not make her smart. I don't understand it...when I

went to school it was so competitive...and there were no "study groups" or "tutoring...You just had to do it on your own. I think it was better...> Hillary Clinton had a comment about the generation of young people today...and I don't think she said it correctly...because she lumped "all" of the kids together...but I have to agree a lot of them are soft. >

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[Guest guest]

Obviously we are on a subject about which we feel very deeply. That is a very good thing, I think.

I could not be more in agreement on the positive input and praise. I read somewhere that it is important that the praise be about something over which the recipient has control, thus "you are so pretty" is not productive, as that is a gift from God or genes, not something the child has any control over.

W.

Re: Re: Steve - Kids

I homeschool my youngest and my 2 middle kids go to public school. I spend many hours helping and overseeing homework for the 2 while still teaching my youngest. Each of them has had to learn to wait their turn. As kids from any family with more than 1 child has had to learn at an early age. Also, they all have many frinds, so they also learn to take turns or wait there. I feel that your information may benot as broad as others who are invoplved with this.Also, aren't all children regardless, of where or how scholed; short on patience? How many of us have ben on the phone when our child wanted something? How many kids at an amusement park were excited about waiting their turn? As with any type of schooling, there are gong to be better mannered children than others.

Parent activity does play a huge role in schooling a child. With schools as crowded as they are, teachers are not always able to answr or help every single child every day. Having a parent who is willing to go over homework wiith a child is vital. Also, it makes the child feel we do care about them and what they are doing.Many older children love showing off to younger siblings too, the things they have learned; as they are proud of their accomplishments.To be honest, I don't care if every child does get an award at some point in the year; as long as it inspires that child to continue learning.Also, keep in mind, that many kida come from dysfunctional homes, so the only praise they get is from teachers or peers.Kids who have good feelings about learning are the ones who will strive to keep at it, even after they finish school.Many of us has a teacher we remember fondly who we felt really cared about how we did, and this helped us to pursue other things in our lives. I'm willing to bet that this teacher also was liberal with his/her praise.Also, at one award ceremony, I attended, many people were confused over a 5th grade student who was given an award for good handwriting. However, what many people did not know was this little boy had been in a terrible accident and had to learn to write all over again. It was hos classmates who decided such an award was to be given.For that little boy that day, walking up to recieve his award was a huge milestone to him.Another child had lost his parents in a fire, and was having many problems adjusting; and he was quite pleased to recieve his award for most improved. So..yes lots of awards are given, and I for one am glad. Shouldn't every child be able to feel the pride of wealking up to get his award. Life is hard, and rewards are nice.

Some people do get so busy with their lives that they do forget to praise or take foir granted people in their lives.Yet, people all thrive on it. From parents of children to people in workplaces.Wouldn't we all feel better if we recieved more praise than complaints. Studies show that a boss who praises and/or rewards his employees for a good job; get better responses from the public and more quality in the work.

Also, isn't many of our problems with our ownseves; especially where overeating is concerned, about a bad self opinion. If we give ourselves bad messages, then what are we showing to others about us, If we were told, or tell ourselves that we aren't worth it.....then how can we succeed. Sorry this is so long. LeenaBeth Black wrote:

Every student I ever had that came into the school system from "home school" had a false sense of accomplishment. As bright as they were, most of them were behind and unable to be patient to wait for help - they were so used to "instant" help from a small setting. Many of them had socialization problems...and many of them had an inflated sense of their abilities. Shan wrote: > Involved parents is the key, every time.> W.Hm I keep finding myself in deep agreement with you.In 2003 Desforges did a study for the DfES (the governmentEducation dept UK) to locate which factors were the most influentialin school for a child's later education and career success. The studyexamined different teaching methods, family wealth and social status etcThe result was a huge surprise - and an attempt was made to hush it upexcept a lot of people like me spread the news among home educatorsand alternative families so "they" couldn't! What Desforges discovered was that the single most important influencein a child's education was how involved their parents were with theeducation. The peak age for this was around 10 -12 where parents whoexpressed confidence in their kids abilities showed up as a commonfactor in life success afterwards. This fits with two major areas of my experience. One is that we havehome educated our son completely and years ago checked the researchabout home education: it showed kids educated at home as way ahead ofschool educated kids even where parents are poorly educated themselves!Secondly my husband and I have recently started a very small onlinehigh school, with classes via chatrooms (we are teachers, homeeducators, and trained in online teaching). We have found that almostwithout exception the students who do the best with us are the oneswhose parents regularly contact us with questions, wanting to knowexactly what their student is doing with us. We can see that from theconversations with us these parents are obviously involved inreminding and supporting re homework, and doing fun things with theirkids. Some we have helped to understand that their compliments, as parents,are dragon magic - a "well done" or "that looks great" from a parentreverberates thro' a kid/young person's life, with more impact than aweek of all our hard work. (Many parents know this already.) Aparent's approval flashes through us in memory long after they are dead.My own extraordinary mother once said to me, joking 'I sometimes thinkall you need me to do is tell you I'm proud of you!' I saidabsolutrely seriously 'Yes mum. If you believe in me I can do anything.'And for anyone who is thinking of the terrible acid of parents'disapproval and damage, from my previous career of 20 yrs as atherapist working with abuse survivors and others trapped in pain, Ilearned that approval and faith is homeopathic. Children who survive ghastly childhoods have the capacity to absorbexperiences of respect and approval wherever they can find them: agrandparent, neighbour, teacher etc. It is these smaller but definiteexperiences that lock on to something deep wityhin us, and equip uswith the knowledge that this is the spiritual food we need. Somethingin us knows, recognises what it is we need. Some children bask in a sun of approval: they are lucky in theirparenting. Others swim up towards the gleam of a distant sun from deepunder dark waters, sometimes through years of setbacks.Shan

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

I home schooled my two younger kids. They did better academically, do better in the work force, have great social skills, and are able to relate to a variety of ages from young to elderly. My two older ones had a much harder struggle and while the one boy is doing ok now the other is just lost.

Jane