Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gain

[Guest guest]

Are you sure there's an increase in supply?? It sounds like baby just needs more to eat and isn't getting it. SNS? Beebe, M.Ed., RLC, IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comwww.facebook.com/thesecond9months--- From: berybrit

Subject: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gainTo: Date: Sunday, June 3, 2012, 8:46 AM

Permission to post:

Does anyone have ideas for a mom of a 9 mo old baby that hasn't gained between 6 and 9 months, and is also very fussy at the breast? Baby is alert and active, appears developmentally normal. Parents were petite babies and have high metabolism. Baby was sleeping through the night (9-11 hours). Mom works part time. They had a good start with exclusive breastfeeding through 5 3/4 mo. I know slow weight gain can be normal, but *no* weight gain?

My first thought was to increase the milk flow, so they've done that through more freq nursing, herbs and acupuncture. But baby is still just as 'fidgety' at the breast.It hasn't improved at all.

Mom says:

"Also, for the past couple months, besides the fussiness, she pinches me

throughout nursing with both hands, squeezing and twisting the skin on my

stomach, arms and breasts to the point where it can be painful and frustrating

for me. I tried a few days of telling her not to and removing her hands, but it

didn't seem to help. I'm trying now to cover my skin as much as possible."

They have changed to 'dense' solids, including coconut oil, bacon and beef liver. The fidgeting is a little better at night, but although mom now wakes baby at night to nurse, still no weight gain, and baby still with very short feeds at the breast, very fussy despite the increased milk supply.

They are working with a pediatrician on this. There aren't any obvious health problems in the baby- no anemia.

Thoughts?

[Guest guest]

that's a big thing! the poor baby may be having a difficult time with solids as well as breastfeeding. a frenotomy may solve everything. Beebe, M.Ed., RLC, IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comwww.facebook.com/thesecond9months--- Subject: Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gainTo: Date: Monday, June 4, 2012, 5:42 AM

I forgot to point that my neighbor baby is tongue-tie. He was not clipped because he was nursing well the first 4 months. Even though, I suggest to clip him when problem started it was not done thanks to the doctors who told the parents that the baby was fine as long as he was growing in height. Mercedes BentolilaSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Thanks for your input, ladies.

I'm pretty sure this baby is not TT'ed (casually observed in LLL meeting, tongue very mobile/active), but will get together with them to do a real check.

I did see her at breast- mom said it was typical. Her little body was wiggling the whole time and she came off after 3-4 mins. I will get all the weights and chart on WHO weight charts. I think she started off at 50% and now is at 0 %.

Maybe more investigation will reveal a cause. Milk supply needs to be checked out. One thing I didn't tell you is that mom is fatigued (even when baby was sleeping through), so that might reveal something. Thanks again,

, LLLL, IBCLC

Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gain

Hello,Forcing a baby to eat by stuffing food in his mouth?? Not sure if I like that idea....Not gaining weight is one thing, but I would think losing weight would be more of an issue. Many babies plateau and being on the low end of the weight for this babies age may be normal and is normal for many babies. What percentile is baby? What's the baby's weight now compared to at 6 mos.? I'd be curious to see what might help the fussiness, mom drinking caffeine(too much) does baby have an ear infection, belly ache from something in mom's diet? How fussy is baby actually, everything else sounds good, developmentally except for the fussiness. Other things in family life that have changed?? Good Luck!! Beals, RN, CLC, LLLL>> I forgot to point that my neighbor baby is tongue-tie. He was not clipped because he was nursing well the first 4 months. Even though, I suggest to clip him when problem started it was not done thanks to the doctors who told the parents that the baby was fine as long as he was growing in height. > > Mercedes Bentolila> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerrySent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry</div>>

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[Guest guest]

Fatigue could be caused by anemia or by low thyroid levels, either of which can cause low milk supply which could be frustrating the baby.

Dee KassingHi all,

Thanks for your input, ladies.

I'm pretty sure this baby is not TT'ed (casually observed in LLL meeting, tongue very mobile/active), but will get together with them to do a real check.

I did see her at breast- mom said it was typical. Her little body was wiggling the whole time and she came off after 3-4 mins. I will get all the weights and chart on WHO weight charts. I think she started off at 50% and now is at 0 %.

Maybe more investigation will reveal a cause. Milk supply needs to be checked out. One thing I didn't tell you is that mom is fatigued (even when baby was sleeping through), so that might reveal something. Thanks again,

, LLLL, IBCLC

[Guest guest]

Yes, good point.

Re: Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gain

Fatigue could be caused by anemia or by low thyroid levels, either of which can cause low milk supply which could be frustrating the baby.

Dee KassingHi all,

Thanks for your input, ladies.

I'm pretty sure this baby is not TT'ed (casually observed in LLL meeting, tongue very mobile/active), but will get together with them to do a real check.

I did see her at breast- mom said it was typical. Her little body was wiggling the whole time and she came off after 3-4 mins. I will get all the weights and chart on WHO weight charts. I think she started off at 50% and now is at 0 %.

Maybe more investigation will reveal a cause. Milk supply needs to be checked out. One thing I didn't tell you is that mom is fatigued (even when baby was sleeping through), so that might reveal something. Thanks again,

, LLLL, IBCLC

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[Guest guest]

I agree with --I would want to figure out for myself if babe was indeed

doing well prior to 6 months--usually it turns out they were not. Them you look

at the solutions differently, bc you aren't looking for a sudden change but

rather a progressive slide.

Tow, IBCLC, CT/USA & Paris, France

>

> For some reason all the mothers who have babies that fail to thrive AFTER

three months seem to end up coming to me, possibly because I like working with

them and because I customize the growth charts I do for them. Many of them have

been given FALSE reassurance that their babies are growing well and they

actually spotted the signs of slow down long before other health care

practitioners.

>

> While there are many causes all of which should be explored that many have

mentioned, the most frequent causes I have found to be:

>

> a) nursing on one breast only because someone told them about

foremilk/hindmilk imbalance or because their baby only needed one breast when

they were feeding 8 times per day -- and this resolves quickly when they start

adding the second breast

>

> sleeping longer than 6-8 hours at night which makes it impossible for the

baby to feed frequently enough during the remaining hours of the day

>

> c) breastfeeding less than 5 times per day

>

>

>

>

> sburgernutr@...

>

[Guest guest]

This is great to know, thanks.

I just charted this baby's growth on the WHO charts....she actually stays at or just below the 15th percentile of weight from birth to 6 mo, then drops to just below the 3rd percentile at 9 mo. For height, stays between the 50th and 85th percentile from birth to 6 mo, then drops to about half way between the 50th and 15th at 9 mo.

So it looks to me like she was growing well and something happened after 6 mo....I guess that gives us something to go on.

Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gain

I agree with --I would want to figure out for myself if babe was indeed doing well prior to 6 months--usually it turns out they were not. Them you look at the solutions differently, bc you aren't looking for a sudden change but rather a progressive slide. Tow, IBCLC, CT/USA & Paris, France>> For some reason all the mothers who have babies that fail to thrive AFTER three months seem to end up coming to me, possibly because I like working with them and because I customize the growth charts I do for them. Many of them have been given FALSE reassurance that their babies are growing well and they actually spotted the signs of slow down long before other health care practitioners.> > While there are many causes all of which should be explored that many have mentioned, the most frequent causes I have found to be:> > a) nursing on one breast only because someone told them about foremilk/hindmilk imbalance or because their baby only needed one breast when they were feeding 8 times per day -- and this resolves quickly when they start adding the second breast> > sleeping longer than 6-8 hours at night which makes it impossible for the baby to feed frequently enough during the remaining hours of the day> > c) breastfeeding less than 5 times per day> > > > > sburgernutr@...>

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[Guest guest]

I have seen this too.  Baby at 6 month check up no weight gain since 4 month check up! Horrible to see, horrible to be the mom and realize you have not been feeding your baby enough afterall.  So often I am afraid it is management not anatomy.  At least with anatomy you have something to think about besides you just let your kid cry in hunger so many times they stopped asking to be fed.

I hope this mom finds an answer with you soon.Pam M.

 

My neighbor had a baby like that. My theory was that he could not stand the let down when he was around 4 months and had very short frequent feedings (less than 4 minutes). The mother never followed my suggestions. He started to suck his finger to quest his hunger. He stop gaining weight at 6month check up and went from 50% to -15%. He got so low because the doctors were not concern as long as he was gaining in height because the parents are small. At 1year 3month, he stop gaining in height, so doctors started to look for reasons. Around that time she was in Miami for a few days and she took the baby to a very good pediatrician for a second opinion. He said that the baby was underweight for malnurishment (he learnt to live with little food).

Treatment: 1- to force him to eat (we stuff food in his mouth and did not let him spit it until he ate it). It was a war that we ended winning.

2- bottles of pedisure every time he sucks his fingers. (He used to finish the bottle in minutes)It worked. After 2 months of hard work, the child  started to ask for food on his own. Now at 3 years old, he is on 20% (remember he got to be -15%)  

Please, do not this to happen to any child. If he is not gaining, HE IS LOSING. Tell the mother this story, do not wait until is more difficult.

There must be a reason why he is fussy at the breast. Try feeding him with other ways to he how he react. Mercedes BentolilaSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-- Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services

[Guest guest]

We can be "sure there is no tongue tie" but perhaps there is.. tongue mobility is only part of it, as I learned recently and can really fool us into thinking there is no tongue tie. Was seeing a baby that had amazing tongue mobility, could move it all around, up and down, side to side, way out.. but that baby had a tight submucosal tongue tie and, even though the symptoms were indicative of tt, I was fooled by that excellent mobility.. excellent for everything but breastfeeding.. Once the tt was released, mother noticed a huge difference in how bfdg felt. Lip tie was the next biggest indicator for me to look at the tongue. Tight lip, in my experience, has accompanied tight tongue in every baby I have worked with. And I am humbled by this recent experience.. I used to think "how did Dr so and so not notice that tongue tie.. its

so obvious to me... ".Just looking may not uncover a tongue tie..We checked by using this technique on Dr. Kotlow's you tube video (there is no sound..) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5opSbXvL7yQBaby may also need to be nursing at night which is how a mom I spoke with a few months ago got her baby to start gaining again.. they had night weaned him and he stopped gaining at about the same age as this baby so mom started bringing the baby to the breast in the night at least once. Another contact I had noticed that if she did not pump at least once at night her milk supply would drop dramatically.. all anecdotal but critical for these two babies... When one considers that bm or abm should be the main source of calories during the 2nd 1/2 of the first year, and baby is sleeping so long at night,

that only leaves 14 hrs. the rest of the day to get all the feedings in. Mom may want to consider pumping during the night at least once if baby is not going to nurse. According to a recent post by Robyn Roche-l on Lactnet, milk production can be very impacted by not removing milk at night, when we produce the most growth hormone (think I have that right.. maybe someone else can chime in if I don't).Good luck to this mom and babe. Celina DykstraLa Leche League

Leader, Lakes Region LLL, NHIBCLCceliner_d57@...Helping Moms and Babies Meet Their Breastfeeding Goals

[Guest guest]

Agree that we can't really know about tongue tie without a thorough exam. Good to hear your story about the baby that was helped by a release.

This mom is waking baby to nurse twice a night now, and she has gained a little. She's still real fussy at breast, so I will see them to check it all out and give general encouragement.

Thanks!

Re: Older baby fussy at breast, no weight gain

We can be "sure there is no tongue tie" but perhaps there is.. tongue mobility is only part of it, as I learned recently and can really fool us into thinking there is no tongue tie. Was seeing a baby that had amazing tongue mobility, could move it all around, up and down, side to side, way out.. but that baby had a tight submucosal tongue tie and, even though the symptoms were indicative of tt, I was fooled by that excellent mobility.. excellent for everything but breastfeeding.. Once the tt was released, mother noticed a huge difference in how bfdg felt. Lip tie was the next biggest indicator for me to look at the tongue. Tight lip, in my experience, has accompanied tight tongue in every baby I have worked with. And I am humbled by this recent experience.. I used to think "how did Dr so and so not notice that tongue tie.. its so obvious to me... ".

Just looking may not uncover a tongue tie..

We checked by using this technique on Dr. Kotlow's you tube video (there is no sound..)

Baby may also need to be nursing at night which is how a mom I spoke with a few months ago got her baby to start gaining again.. they had night weaned him and he stopped gaining at about the same age as this baby so mom started bringing the baby to the breast in the night at least once. Another contact I had noticed that if she did not pump at least once at night her milk supply would drop dramatically.. all anecdotal but critical for these two babies... When one considers that bm or abm should be the main source of calories during the 2nd 1/2 of the first year, and baby is sleeping so long at night, that only leaves 14 hrs. the rest of the day to get all the feedings in. Mom may want to consider pumping during the night at least once if baby is not going to nurse. According to a recent post by Robyn Roche-l on Lactnet, milk production can be very impacted by not removing milk at night, when we produce the most growth hormone (think I have that right.. maybe someone else can chime in if I don't).

Good luck to this mom and babe.

Celina Dykstra

La Leche League Leader,

Lakes Region LLL, NH

IBCLC

celiner_d57@...

Helping Moms and Babies Meet Their Breastfeeding Goals

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