question

October 26, 2000

Cov,

Hi, I didn't finish my thought because I'm trying to delay a board meeting

from tomorrow until Monday which I managed.

Okay, on the prayer for the other gig, the person I forgive is me, not them.

So, in praying for the overweight guy, what happened was that weight became a

non-issue for me, I've never thought about it for myself nor anyone around me

ever since. I never have the problem, nor do I even see it in others, it's a

healed place. There are loads of places for me to heal, but as they become

healed one, by one, for each one of us, they are completely healed when we

use Alice's Dove which I use as the symbol of the feminine Holy Spirit

Goddess. Which may be a bit out there for many of you, but since it

completely heals my issues, I truly will continue to use it, because it gives

me peace and complete freedom.

Much Love,

~ bo ~

October 26, 2000

Well, Cov, many of us live our lives close to the

underbelly of life. I am in high tech, it's a dirty

game and there have been many times that the boardroom

has turned into Gladiators with enough blood and gore

for anyone to stomach. Merry works with children who

have been abused so she sees humanity in all its vile

nastiness.

Reading n Woodman on Eve, the feminine body,

makes me realise that the feminine has arisen and now

wants to bring a new justice to this earth. Her

wake-up call can be quite horrendous, this feminine is

not to be messed with! She too can maim, kill and

destroy if the life force is unheeded or harmed in any

way.

Gaining a Jungian perspective on the feminine is slow,

steady and courageous work. Yet I don't believe any

of us gets pleasure from seeing the brutality we see.

Finding our voice is sometimes painful and

frightening. All of this work goes against the

collective institutionalised voice that has silenced

us and made the feminine into a " goody two-shoes. "

Maintaining a Jungian perspective is for me about

holding a double-vision - the transcendent and the

brutal together. I picture this as watching the movie

Garden of the Fitzi Continis (sp?) where we are

listening to sublime operatic arias whilst watching

fascist black shirts kick around Jews in the town

square. From the two comes the three. Taking that

third step is what it's all about. I can't explain the

perspective of the third (maybe others can - Deb,

Mike, Alice?) except to say that it is neither passive

towards brutality nor cloying towards the

transcendent. Rather, the third perspective is

somewhat detached yet includes intangibles such as

wisdom, creativity, love, kindness, compassion,

empathy and all that has to do with feeling for the

suffering of others and the beauty of what's possible.

How we act on this perspective of the third is mainly

a matter of typology; we find our own paths, share

this journey, make mistakes, repeat old patterns of

self-undoing, rejoice in our breakthroughs and cry

together, hold one another in the darkness - right

here - which has nothing at all to do with conformity

to institutionalised notions of The Good.

This fire is a place where we can try out all the new

perspectives that come to each of us. Take off the

masks we wear in our daily lives that seem so driven

by ungrounded, insane demands for efficiency and

money.

Now pass the glass, mine'll be a large G & T thanks.

in the dance,

Frances

--- Covert wrote:

> Alice's and Bo's and Merry's voices have some

> familiarity to me.

>

> Is there anyone on this list serve other than I who

> appreciates the brooding

> darkness and blood and guts of existence as much as

> the sugar, spice,

> pigtails and glory-of-God part?

>

Most of the

> material on this list serve

> feels like church group talk to me.

>

=====

Frances

trimeter@...

_______________________________________________________

October 26, 2000

Dear Cov,

As my former wife used to say, " Let's don't and just say we did. "

Gene Powll Baker

October 26, 2000

Frances wrote:

> Gaining a Jungian perspective on the feminine is slow,

> steady and courageous work. Yet I don't believe any

> of us gets pleasure from seeing the brutality we see.

> Finding our voice is sometimes painful and

> frightening. All of this work goes against the

> collective institutionalised voice that has silenced

> us and made the feminine into a " goody two-shoes. "

Well (laughing) - for some reason my own name didn't feature in this picture

of gentle, goody-two-shoes femininity. I can't think why not!!!

Seriously, my notorious impatience with feminist writers is because I always

wonder why they're trying to teach their grandmother to suck eggs! Not only

have I never been gentle or concilatory, but it's never been an image which

I would associate with femininity in general. The female of the species is

more deadly than the male.

This particular Warrior woman has finally accepted that she may not be

called into battle at this time, however, so will be concentrating on the

forthcoming lecture on the Freud-Jung relationship like a " good girl " . I am

also seeing the rabbi next week to find out how I may be able to be of some

use from here.

Thank you all for your forbearance with my loud, FEMININE ranting earlier

this week!

fa

October 26, 2000

<< I am

also seeing the rabbi next week to find out how I may be able to be of some

use from here. >>

Bravo!

Greg

October 27, 2000

Anger...

Of course one has anger. As long as one sees the universe as a 'self' over

here and the rest of it - 'not-self' - over there, one will be moved to

attraction

and repulsion - dragged forward by the nose under the influence of the

former, and backward by the hair by the latter - and will somehow come to

think that the former is 'good' and the latter 'bad'/'shadowy'/'one's right'

depending (very often all of them, as for desire: god/bad/wicked/wonderful)...

in a word, 'ambiguity'.

Other people's pain doesn't hurt. Other people's wars don't terrify, confuse

and fill with trepidation, don't stir one to hatred of a carefully designated

'them' and support of a circumscribed 'us'... You drop rocks in an imaginary

pool and their are no waves... no ripples, even...

I'm reminded of the joke of the person who came across a guy castrating

camels... He had two helpers holding their hind legs apart and he walked up

with two bricks in his hands and ... BAM!

'Doesn't that hurt?' asked the tourist, utterly scandalised.

'No,' said the other. 'As long as you keep your thuimbs out of the way.'

I don't know how many of you have ever been in an attack by armed men or

even present at one as a startled bystander... I've had my share, thank you.

This much I waill say about anger: take a child who's doing something you

don't like and whup him one across the head and then yell at him till your

eyes are staring out of your head and your face is red and contorted...

Then stop and examine the child

He's listening to you with rapt attention, isn't he? Understanding every word

you say and the depth of your pain and degradation? He's thinking to

himself: 'Gosh! I really have upset this guy here. I should be more

considerate, more compassionate, more loving and a lot, lot wiser.'

So you really *have* taught him something.

And you, of course, feel so much better at the end of it to see his fear, his

blood, his confusion... to see how you've crushed someone weaker and

smaller than yourself...

Think about it...

Me, I don't think so.

Red fury, cold fury, xenophobic fury, frustrated fury, disappointed fury...

Either expressed or suppressed, I've never heard that these are good for you,

and certainly never ever seen anything of value come out of them. Not only

do they not put a stop to hatred, they increase it. Surely this is shooting

oneself in the foot? - It's doing exactly what you *don't* want and then

justifying to yourself that the other must be a fool.

An exercise: take a hammer, put your thumb on a sturdy table, and hit it...

hard...

Then come and talk to me about other people's pain and anger.

As it is, you can't even recall the intensity of the last time you had a tooth

pulled or gave birth or saw your own blood welling out of a deep wound. We

forget it - we forget it as fast as it happens if possible, and as soon as we

can if not... in its very fading.

The Buddhist recognise three or five mental attitudes that utterly poison

awareness, to wit, bewildered ignorance, grasping and desire, and aversion

and hatred with the additional states of arrogance and pride and envy-

jealousy. Each of these is a mental set creating an entire weltanschauung -

a way of becoming and seeing - as well as being pretty much the interplay of

much that we deem we 'think'.

If you really want to do something with anger, turn it on these.

Amongst other things, once you really *have* vanquished them - once they

no longer have a place in your being any more - they will never again rise up

from somewhere else to a sneak attack.

October 27, 2000

> Maybe I am sensing a personal rendition of the old Covey (sp?) model

of

> concentric circles. It seems that many seem to be trying to influence the

outer

> circle of concern, like some war someplace, rather than the smaller,

> closer-to-home circle that can be influenced. People moan about wars and watch

> their families break up at the same time. If you stick to what you can

> influence, your circle of influence will expand outward at least toward the

> collective circle of concern - like a war. Ali stuck to boxing, and later was

> able to influence world affairs. It couldn't have happened in reverse.

*I think if you reread the Sunday School stuff, I think you'll find that's

almost

exactly what it's all been about.

That and dealing with pain... Pain right here.

No-one imagines pain, fear, anger and distress will go away.

October 27, 2000

> > Maybe I am sensing a personal rendition of the old Covey (sp?)

model of

> > concentric circles. It seems that many seem to be trying to influence

the outer

> > circle of concern, like some war someplace, rather than the smaller,

> > closer-to-home circle that can be influenced. People moan about wars and

watch

> > their families break up at the same time. If you stick to what you can

> > influence, your circle of influence will expand outward at least toward

the

> > collective circle of concern - like a war. Ali stuck to boxing, and

later was

> > able to influence world affairs. It couldn't have happened in reverse.

> *I think if you reread the Sunday School stuff, I think you'll find that's

almost

> exactly what it's all been about.

> That and dealing with pain... Pain right here.

> No-one imagines pain, fear, anger and distress will go away.

NO-one????? What world do you live in?

gwynne

October 28, 2000

> Perhaps I should not be

> honest here, few of us are.( You see I really don't believe you all are always

> saintly) Meanwhile, back to my mystery stories.

*Toni - I find your take on the honesty of the people on this site rather

interesting. No-one, as far as I know (and, as moderator, I sit and read every

message that goes through here with a fine-toothed comb, believe me -

hours every day) has denied the existence of pain/evil/distress/frustration/you-

name-it in any way whatsoever, nor has anyone claimed sainthood... What

they HAVE done (like yourself, but differently) is to propose " solutions " to

the - shall we say? - 'difficult' aspects of same. Notice the word 'propose'.

Nor has anyone, to my knowledge, imposed one.

I find it interesting that there are those who are convinced that this planet is

a

tough place, no time for shilly-shallying about and others of precisely the

contrary (not to mention all other possible shades of opinion in-between). We

are, after all, talking about what we assume is the same place - the same

experience, the same demands, the same needs - and yet for some it arises

as endless joy, for others endless night (and all other possible shades of

luminosity in-between)... This, if you think about it, has very little to do

with

the place itself and an enormous amount to do with the 'set' of the mind

observing it. Perhaps - rather than point fingers at others (' hasn't got

her eyes shut') - we should start here, examining our own mental set and the

way it colours everything we see? And perhaps - since *seeing* our own

mental set is about as easy as recognising the quality of the colour of light

you perceive because your eyes happen to be blue or brown or black or

green - we could take a leaf from the I Ching (hi there, Carl Jung! - haven't

seen you round for a while!) and observe our effects on others around us.

We tend to imagine our selves as independent and self-determining over and

against a world of more or less friendly objects out there; one's own 'logic'

makes sense to one, the 'logic' of others less so; the 'honesty' of the

'realist'

is of a different order to that of the 'dreamer', and different again to that of

the

'mystic'...

There are facts, you will no-doubt tell me. Indeed there are. There are those

who come through these 'facts' filled with anger and hatred, those who want

only to forget them and to get on with ordinary life as it best seems to them,

and those who come through, seemingly filled with nothing but love and

fellow-feeling... Same facts...

Surely I am teaching you nothing.

m

October 28, 2000

Toni, Wow!!!! Eureka! Huzzah! Thanks!

My pesky Diogenes archetype has been liberated and individuated thanks to

your reply. (If he's the guy who staggered around in the dark with a lantern

searching everywhere in vain for an honest man.) Maybe I can get off it now

and on with my life!

What you said expresses exactly what I was feeling when I posted my

question. Please don't go away.

Cov

Re: Re: question

>Cov, Wow I didn't realize the number of saints on Jung-Fire! I assumed you

were

>speaking of feelings, thoughts and the things that go bump in the night.

>Obviously, I am the only one besides you who ever had a nasty thought! When

I

>wrote before, i like you, was not talking about what I do, but what

sometimes

>slips into my mind.

>Of course we don't strike out in anger, of course we don't actually shoot

>people, of course, we try to act in a mature, non violent way. I was

speaking

>of 69 years of life, and I do remember my rebelliousness and aggression in

the

>face of verbal abuse. I remember my feelings of vengeance at being made fun

of,

>I remember the rage and violence I felt when I got picked on by the class

>bully. I also remember as a mother, wanting to wipe up the street with the

>other kid's mother who screamed at my children, I wanted to defend my kids

for

>everybody, although I well knew I couldn't.

>I remember my boss chewing me out in public , and my horror as I stood

there

>and took it. I remember too, wishing I could strike back, but knowing I

would

>Ont. remember well being insulted to my face, and shriveling up inside,

>wishing I could strike back but not being able to open my mouth.

>I remember my horror and revulsion against Idi Amin, Saddam Hussien, and

>Hitler. I really wished, somebody would shoot them. Are there really many

of

>you out there that always turned the other cheek IN YOUR THOUGHTS, and

FEELING?

>In all your lives you never imagine how good it would feel if someone

>prevailed against those who hurt you and yours? That doesn't mean I take

>pleasure in violence, but i do realize it is within me as in everyone else.

>

>I do not knowingly inflict pain, or violence against anyone. I try hard

not to

>hurt peoples feelings, I have never knowingly hurt an animal, and I have

not

>even had a verbal battle with anyone in years. I realize that life would

be

>lovely if everyone could control themselves, but I realize wanton cruelty,

>unfair aggression and abuse and the ensuing pain is part of life.The

innocent

>suffer, the guilty go free. That is usually the way on this earth. But my

soul

>in not " always quiet within me " , and nasty thought and feelings well up,

and I

>do have to stop and breathe deeply.

>

>This world is not the best of all possible worlds, with a little pain and

>suffering thrown in. It is a world of pain and suffering, and violence with

a

>little good thrown in. Reality is reality. Human beings do lash out and

become

>violent , nations do commit atrocities, and have since the beginning of

human

>life on earth.Violence ,Fear, anger, frustration and lack of control do

>cause evil, and real evil is still around us. How can anyone think they are

>immune? And is it always caused by others? We are never guilty of harboring

>violent, nasty, spiteful thoughts? Even as children and through the early

>years, you all were the model of peace, joy and gentleness. ????

>I guess I should resign from this group, I do not belong in your company,

you

>see, because as hard as I try I am still subject to my emotions,they come

>unbidden . Thankfully,I have the self control to keep them within, and

enough

>wisdom to realize, I would not improve the situation by reacting

outwardly. I

>know that beneath it all I am no different than the rest of struggling

>humanity, and capable of anything if pushed far enough.. Old age does give

one

>a different perspective, and sometimes the love over rides everything...

>but....

>Perhaps I should not be honest here, few of us are.( You see I really don't

>believe you all are always saintly) Meanwhile, back to my mystery stories.

>Toni

>

>Covert wrote:

>

>> Thanks Toni and to the others who jumped in. I am going to put in some

time

>> this weekend re-reading the posts. I can't grasp everything said before

>> going to work this morning. I want to go over it carefully and get back

to

>> the list.

>>

>> One clarifying comment, though, thinking about Alice's reply. I don't

>> " enjoy " blood and guts at all. I accept it (maybe even love it as part of

>> me), which is a lot different from enjoying it.

>> Also, I am certainly not suggesting that others on the J-F have not known

or

>> felt violence and pain.

>>

>> What I object to (again for my self and people close to me, not in

>> principle) is the notion that " violence and pain shouldn't be, " that the

>> peaceful order is the " right way, " if we can just get rid of the " bad,

wrong

>> way. " When I see violence up close, I often - if not always - act to stop

>> it, because I don't like it. I have stepped in serious harms way more

than

>> once to help someone or some animal being mistreated. It's not a should

>> be/shouldn't be thing, it's just an adjustment of my immediate (that

which

>> can be influenced) environment to suit my personal preference.

>>

>> I did grasp, however, that some of you are seeing the war as your

personal

>> environment. I am enlightened about this point that I wasn't looking at.

>> Thank you.

>>

>> Maybe I am sensing a personal rendition of the old Covey (sp?)

model

>> of concentric circles. It seems that many seem to be trying to influence

the

>> outer circle of concern, like some war someplace, rather than the

smaller,

>> closer-to-home circle that can be influenced. People moan about wars and

>> watch their families break up at the same time. If you stick to what you

can

>> influence, your circle of influence will expand outward at least toward

the

>> collective circle of concern - like a war. Ali stuck to boxing, and later

>> was able to influence world affairs. It couldn't have happened in

reverse.

>>

>> Cov

>>

>> >

>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -_- >

>>

October 28, 2000

Toni,

It is never, ever my intention to cause pain or harm. Not because I am a

saint, but because I understand that whatever is making me craziest in others

is somewhere in myself unhealed. Those issues like, a very small example,

for me, weight, is a total non-issue. I don't ever think about it in myself,

eat whatever I like (i was once overweight) and I don't even see it in others

unless they bring it to my attention.

So, whatever appears on my screen as making me nuts, is about me, not you,

nor anyone else, it's for me to work on.

I truly think you're a very sincere and wonderful person, whose life has been

more difficult than most. Life is not fair, nor is it equal. (The Scorps

smirk as the Libran admits <g>.)

I have to dig deep within myself to see what this is ... being here in the

heart of D.C. I don't feel like the war is on the television, my feeling is

that it could well enter my living room, and my child, or my grandchild, will

have eaten peppers blown with Uranium, and as I die of the leukemia, my child

will cling to me with webbed hands. It's not " out there. " It's here, right

here, the world is too small. Aids came out of the Congo. 150 years ago,

Aids would have knocked out an African tribe and that would be that, and the

rest of us would never have heard of it.

Today, your backyard in Botswana, is the tree in my front yard.

So, Toni, this is not directed at you, truly, I agree with you that unless we

heal the wounds, and they are not as you said, " papered over, " they will live

to grow infected. Really, believe me, I'm on your side.

What I am having trouble with here is that many who are writing think the war

is way out there, in some strange place they've never been. It's not. It's

not only in my mind, it's real and it's in my living room, Agent Orange was

sold by us, by our lovely greedy, war-mongering rich moguls to Iraq and then

used by Iraq on our own soldiers. It was our own chemicals.

A friend of mine is very ill, she has been and she travels too often into war

zones, it is destroying literally and figuratively, her very body, as she

tries to negotiate peace for herself, and you, and me. I think the highest

IQ'd President we've ever had was JFK, at about 132. Janet at 165, is never

going to make President. But she may die for her efforts to peace.

Toni, let's see how we can make peace, and our small contribution will be one

more little gentle gesture, thank you for your very beautiful email.

Love and Light,

Annette

October 28, 2000

I referred to honesty within oneself about the dark as well as the light. I did

not

mean it in any other way. Many of us on this planet, have a difficult time

admitting

that what is hidden deep inside one, is not all sweetness and light. My point

was that

ones exposed to day, one still will not not proclaim them in public (as I

should not

have done, but did) on this list.

There is nothing else in your e-mail I would not accept with a loud Amen. The

fact that

it is impossible to judge oneself objectively was never in question with me. I

do

accept your scolding, especially about your last point , my point was that I

don't

believe anyone human is always filled with good feelings and love. I assumed

" saintly "

because that is all I see written by some on the list, and what I assumed by

general

silence.

No one, least of all I ,ever thought anyone was denying pain and suffering " out

there "

That was not my point.

I rather thought that was Jung's point. Black and white, good and evil are both

present in each psyche. Did I get it wrong again?. If we admit only to the good,

or

only to the bad, we are not terribly conscious. Am I paraphrasing Jung, or have

I gone

completely off track?

Again, the honesty , I was referring too, is something we must each deal with

daily. I

include myself and every other human being who wants to become conscious. Having

been

tormented in my life with the self-righteous in religious groups

I have knowledge of, I believe in self-examination constantly. Because of my

nature,

I want no one to think I am better than I am. I just wanted each of us to

acknowledge

this, because it is a recurring problem , in my opinion ,among " well meaning "

people.

It is too easy to become a " saint' in one's own eyes. I was again speaking of

myself

and others.

I am now afraid of taking the mask off in public, certainly here., since I

would be

the only one, and I know where that has led me in the past. I will reread every

word I

write, if I continue to write, so there will be no umbrage taken. As for finger

pointing against others, if I did that at all I am wrong. Calling people

saintly, was

because I feel and hear only goodness and light, and nothing else.This only only

made

me wonder if I was the only with faults/and or sins.

I will reread again what I wrote. if you could interpret it the way you did,

others

probably did also, and I am obviously not a good enough communicator. Did you

read some

of the other e-mails about Jung, perfection and wholeness.? That is where I

thought I

was going with you. That is where it is obvious I must go alone. I just never

know when

to keep my mouth shut.

I wonder if being in tears over some of these e-mails, including yours, is

worthwhile

for me. I personally feel, you read into my e-mail something that was never

there, and

a direction I never took.. Perhaps, keeper of the keys, I am at fault for not

expressing myself better, or in being perplexed with the noble , saintly tone

of

others. As a matter of fact, i was referring to another post on this list, when

I

wrote. And lastly, I have been told by Jungians, that innocence is not always a

good

thing in this world.Maybe that was only addressed to me. I know it was shocking

to

hear, since I had thought innocence to a good " holy " trait.

Again, and for the last time, it was never ones view of what is " out there " that

I

questioned. Of course we all see reality differently! I was talking about

knowing

oneself within.I was never talking about the conditions on this planet.

It is wrong for me even to try and defend my views. I just haven't progressed

far

enough spiritually. I still have the odd impression that I should try to explain

myself. Just goes to show how far I am from where I would like to be.

Toni

cloudhand@... wrote:

> > Perhaps I should not be

> > honest here, few of us are.( You see I really don't believe you all are

always

> > saintly) Meanwhile, back to my mystery stories.

> *Toni - I find your take on the honesty of the people on this site rather

> interesting. No-one, as far as I know (and, as moderator, I sit and read every

> message that goes through here with a fine-toothed comb, believe me -

> hours every day) has denied the existence of

pain/evil/distress/frustration/you-

> name-it in any way whatsoever, nor has anyone claimed sainthood... What

> they HAVE done (like yourself, but differently) is to propose " solutions " to

> the - shall we say? - 'difficult' aspects of same. Notice the word 'propose'.

> Nor has anyone, to my knowledge, imposed one.

> I find it interesting that there are those who are convinced that this planet

is a

> tough place, no time for shilly-shallying about and others of precisely the

> contrary (not to mention all other possible shades of opinion in-between). We

> are, after all, talking about what we assume is the same place - the same

> experience, the same demands, the same needs - and yet for some it arises

> as endless joy, for others endless night (and all other possible shades of

> luminosity in-between)... This, if you think about it, has very little to do

with

> the place itself and an enormous amount to do with the 'set' of the mind

> observing it. Perhaps - rather than point fingers at others (' hasn't got

> her eyes shut') - we should start here, examining our own mental set and the

> way it colours everything we see? And perhaps - since *seeing* our own

> mental set is about as easy as recognising the quality of the colour of light

> you perceive because your eyes happen to be blue or brown or black or

> green - we could take a leaf from the I Ching (hi there, Carl Jung! - haven't

> seen you round for a while!) and observe our effects on others around us.

> We tend to imagine our selves as independent and self-determining over and

> against a world of more or less friendly objects out there; one's own 'logic'

> makes sense to one, the 'logic' of others less so; the 'honesty' of the

'realist'

> is of a different order to that of the 'dreamer', and different again to that

of the

> 'mystic'...

> There are facts, you will no-doubt tell me. Indeed there are. There are those

> who come through these 'facts' filled with anger and hatred, those who want

> only to forget them and to get on with ordinary life as it best seems to them,

> and those who come through, seemingly filled with nothing but love and

> fellow-feeling... Same facts...

> Surely I am teaching you nothing.

>

> m

>

October 28, 2000

Dear Moderator and keeper of the keys, please scroll back to Thursday 26

Oct message of

mine in direct answer to Cov's letter. Please see his original e-mail,

Thursday26 Oct at05:52