Re: plastic containers

[Guest guest]

I would think the longer the water is stored in the plastic container

the more plastic molecules will migrate over to the water hence making

it more unsafe. There are other factors too such as temperature.

That's part of the reason I just use tap water and a charcoal filter.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:33:05 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi group,

>

>I live in So. Florida where many of my neighbors are winter residents

>who are just now returning from their summer homes. I have been

>looking after the condo of a neighbor who will arrive back here

>tomorrow,, and I went in yesterday to turn on the refrigerator. The

>door had been blocked open, so no problem there, but I noticed that my

>friend had left a gallon container of drinking water inside the

>Fridge. over the summer. The container shows an expiry date of March

>2007, but I'm concerned about whether it is safe to use this

>water, or not.

>

>I think the problems related to using plastic containers for storage

>are related to storing the containers in a freezer, but not sure about

>this.

>

>I'm fairly sure, however, that the many knowledgeable members of this

>group will have an answer to this.

>

>Thanks in advance for your help.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I dont know if mycotoxins can offgas, might depend on if they are

soluable or not. ask Carl. might have been VOC's, MVOC's.

how does one go about colecting just mycotoxins and putting them in a plastic

bag? who told you this? you cant even see them without very high magnifacation.

>

> What kind do you all recommend.. reading that mycotoxins might be able to out

gas through some plastic and also relizing the lids to the containers we have

are not that tight fitting.

>

> Thank you..

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Mycotoxins are not volatile. You are all forgetting that this is a complicated

environment. It includes fungi and bacteria and all of their by-products, e.g.

MVOCs, antigenic proteins, hemolytic proteins, endotoxins, glucans, mannans to

name a few. The particulates range form less than one micron to the size of

spores and up. The less than one micron particles load is about 500 times

greater than the spore count. These particles contain all the by-products just

mentioned. This complicate environment leads to a chronic inflammatory response

syndrome. We cannot name one single component because of the interactions. I

suggest that you all read the POA article.

http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

[] Re: Plastic Containers

I dont know if mycotoxins can offgas, might depend on if they are

soluable or not. ask Carl. might have been VOC's, MVOC's.

how does one go about colecting just mycotoxins and putting them in a plastic

bag? who told you this? you cant even see them without very high magnifacation.

>

> What kind do you all recommend.. reading that mycotoxins might be able to

out gas through some plastic and also relizing the lids to the containers we

have are not that tight fitting.

>

> Thank you..

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dr. Thrasher, just wanted to make sure. forgive me if I dont list

everything that can be involved, I just cant remember them all.

I sometimes refer to it as other contaminates, other toxins, or filth.

I still haven't made it through the whole POA document yet, alot to absorb.

> >

> > What kind do you all recommend.. reading that mycotoxins might be able to

out gas through some plastic and also relizing the lids to the containers we

have are not that tight fitting.

> >

> > Thank you..

> >

> > Robin

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher,

So since I am having inflamation I can asssociate my symtoms with the possiblity

of mold by- products and not have a respiratory

reaction like with the mold itself ?? 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:27:41 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Plastic Containers

 

Mycotoxins are not volatile. You are all forgetting that this is a complicated

environment. It includes fungi and bacteria and all of their by-products, e.g.

MVOCs, antigenic proteins, hemolytic proteins, endotoxins, glucans, mannans to

name a few. The particulates range form less than one micron to the size of

spores and up. The less than one micron particles load is about 500 times

greater than the spore count. These particles contain all the by-products just

mentioned. This complicate environment leads to a chronic inflammatory response

syndrome. We cannot name one single component because of the interactions. I

suggest that you all read the POA article.

http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

[Guest guest]

You may be having both. Asthma and RADS are inflammatory conditions so is

kidney disease, pancreatitis, and neuritis to name a few. Many of the injured

keep repeating mycotoxins. They are important, but are only one of several of

the biocontaminants that are present. For example, I just did a home that

contained all of the dangerous fungi. We are doing the mycotoxins next.

However, we also did endotoxins. The antitoxins were the highest I have ever

see. 2.6 million EU per gram in the kitchen and 990,000 EU per gram on the

bathroom wall. That is grams of dust. This means that there was also extensive

growth of Gram negative (pathogenic) bacteria. We are doing additional cultures

to identify the both Gram negative and positive bacteria. Endotoxins are

synergistic with mycotoxins and both cause inflammation in a mouse model, alone

or synergistically together.

This is why I am encouraging all of you to better understand the contaminants in

the indoor environment of WDB. There are most likely multiple interactions on

your health.

Re: [] Re: Plastic Containers

Mycotoxins are not volatile. You are all forgetting that this is a complicated

environment. It includes fungi and bacteria and all of their by-products, e.g.

MVOCs, antigenic proteins, hemolytic proteins, endotoxins, glucans, mannans to

name a few. The particulates range form less than one micron to the size of

spores and up. The less than one micron particles load is about 500 times

greater than the spore count. These particles contain all the by-products just

mentioned. This complicate environment leads to a chronic inflammatory

response

syndrome. We cannot name one single component because of the interactions. I

suggest that you all read the POA article.

http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

I read it I think on the website from the orthopedic MD.. or some other place

here.. the list? These are the only places I have gotten info so far.. something

about the mycotoxins can outgas through permeable material..

We will store some items we hope to keep at the contaminated home in plastic

containers.. I dont know how contaminated the home is or isnt?? There are photos

and art etc the kids did when they were little I would like to try to save but

will not be taking with us. Want to protect them as well while they are here and

noticin a lot of the plateic stoage containers do not have well sealed lids..

So wondering if the plastic storage containers are fine and if so which ones

might be better from anyones personal experience.

Jack,

Thank you for the info.. I am trying to read it... I am sorry to say I have no

clue what half of this means.. is there a short for dummies version?

Thank you all!

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Mycotoxins are not volatile. You are all forgetting that this is a

complicated environment. It includes fungi and bacteria and all of their

by-products, e.g. MVOCs, antigenic proteins, hemolytic proteins, endotoxins,

glucans, mannans to name a few. The particulates range form less than one

micron to the size of spores and up. The less than one micron particles load

is about 500 times greater than the spore count. These particles contain all

the by-products just mentioned. This complicate environment leads to a chronic

inflammatory response syndrome. We cannot name one single component because of

the interactions. I suggest that you all read the POA article.

>

> http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Thrasher,

IS this testing available to folks like me? Is there a specific test I can ask

of an inspector?

Thank you...

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> You may be having both. Asthma and RADS are inflammatory conditions so is

kidney disease, pancreatitis, and neuritis to name a few. Many of the injured

keep repeating mycotoxins. They are important, but are only one of several of

the biocontaminants that are present. For example, I just did a home that

contained all of the dangerous fungi. We are doing the mycotoxins next.

However, we also did endotoxins. The antitoxins were the highest I have ever

see. 2.6 million EU per gram in the kitchen and 990,000 EU per gram on the

bathroom wall. That is grams of dust. This means that there was also extensive

growth of Gram negative (pathogenic) bacteria. We are doing additional cultures

to identify the both Gram negative and positive bacteria. Endotoxins are

synergistic with mycotoxins and both cause inflammation in a mouse model, alone

or synergistically together.

>

> This is why I am encouraging all of you to better understand the contaminants

in the indoor environment of WDB. There are most likely multiple interactions

on your health.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher, so very much.  I could not figure out this time what was

making me ill besides the pesticide poisoning in May and so now I have soemthing

else to look into.  I will read up on your suggestions.  Thank you once again.

 

 So my second thought is how do you know if there are endotoxins in building? 

Can I be tested for this easily by any Dr?

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 11:58:32 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Plastic Containers

 

You may be having both. Asthma and RADS are inflammatory conditions so is kidney

disease, pancreatitis, and neuritis to name a few. Many of the injured keep

repeating mycotoxins. They are important, but are only one of several of the

biocontaminants that are present. For example, I just did a home that contained

all of the dangerous fungi. We are doing the mycotoxins next.

[Guest guest]

Mayleen, have you tried washing out your sinuses real good and seeing if that

helps?

sometimes regardless of weither I can tell whats affecting me or not, washing my

sinuses helps, if relief is short lived and you've not been anywhere beside

where you live, you can than know that it is something in your space, plus

washing the sinuses may actually help you than locate the problem.

I had a dead mouse one time that was causeing me symptoms and I didn't figure it

out until he got further into the decomposeing stage.

I've had symptoms before because of soaking a dirting pan in the sink and

whatever that caused the water to do, I didn't realize that was what was getting

to me until I got my nose right over it and had more entence reaction.

sometimes it's things we dont thing about.

ps. I remeber to well, the post about being able to sence gassing off of

mycotoxins through a plastic bag. what you have to understand is that while

reading old posts, you might not be getting very good information. there was

little known than about this illness and some thought they had all the answers

but they didn't.

while it can be interesting to read , I wouldn't rely alot on very old posts as

a sorce of current information.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> You may be having both. Asthma and RADS are inflammatory conditions so is

kidney disease, pancreatitis, and neuritis to name a few. Many of the injured

keep repeating mycotoxins. They are important, but are only one of several of

the biocontaminants that are present. For example, I just did a home that

contained all of the dangerous fungi. We are doing the mycotoxins next.

However, we also did endotoxins. The antitoxins were the highest I have ever

see. 2.6 million EU per gram in the kitchen and 990,000 EU per gram on the

bathroom wall. That is grams of dust. This means that there was also extensive

growth of Gram negative (pathogenic) bacteria. We are doing additional cultures

to identify the both Gram negative and positive bacteria. Endotoxins are

synergistic with mycotoxins and both cause inflammation in a mouse model, alone

or synergistically together.

>

> This is why I am encouraging all of you to better understand the contaminants

in the indoor environment of WDB. There are most likely multiple interactions

on your health.

>

> Re: [] Re: Plastic Containers

>

>

>

> Thank you Dr Thrasher,

>

> So since I am having inflamation I can asssociate my symtoms with the

possiblity

> of mold by- products and not have a respiratory

> reaction like with the mold itself ??

>

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Robin,

I " m not caught up on emails, but will tell you our experience. We didn't test

our past place due to cost. I didn't' know & thought I could keep some things

After moving our clothes smelled, threw out what didn't have to have.  Washed &

washed until I hope they are safe.

I threw out everything paper. Yearbooks, books everything. It it wasn't worth

hurting our health.  I wore a mask to shred some things. Concerend about making

small particles,  but concerned about personal info.

You can replace legal documents, birth certificates, etc.

If you want you,  take pictures of the kids artwork.

 I went through boxes of pictures hoping to save some. I saw tiny flowering

looking spores of different colors here & there. Many seemed dry.   I never saw

anything like this in my life. Some had damp mold spots, no question.

It gave me a sick feeling touching them. 

I have some I don't know if it's worth sealing to save. Carl or Dr. Thrasher, do

you know what  intermittent tiny black dust looking particles might be? Dust or

mold? They're more on the paper side & can brush them off. Never saw these on

them in the past.

I think I'm throwing the rest of the pictures out.

Kathy

From: listspub <listspub@...>

Subject: [] Re: Plastic Containers

Jeanine,

I read it I think on the website from the orthopedic MD.. or some other place

here.. the list? These are the only places I have gotten info so far.. something

about the mycotoxins can outgas through permeable material..

We will store some items we hope to keep at the contaminated home in plastic

containers.. I dont know how contaminated the home is or

[Guest guest]

I assume you are asking regarding mycotoxins and endotoxins. They are available

via various laboratories. If you are asking about diagnostic testing regarding

your health problems, then you need to see a physician who specializes in

illness from WDB. Please clarify your question so I can give you an answer.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Dr. Thrasher,

IS this testing available to folks like me? Is there a specific test I can ask

of an inspector?

Thank you...

Robin

>

> You may be having both. Asthma and RADS are inflammatory conditions so is

kidney disease, pancreatitis, and neuritis to name a few. Many of the injured

keep repeating mycotoxins. They are

[Guest guest]

Robin: I am not sure of what you mean regarding a course for dummies. Are you

referring to the biocontaminants or the chronic illness.

I will try to clarify the biocontaminants:

1. Fungi: Many species of various fungi: Stachybotrys (two chemo types);

Aspergillus, Penicillium, Trichoderma, Epicoccum, Chaetomium, Fusarium, to name

a few. These organisms produce what is referred to as exo and endo metabolites.

The exo metabolites are the mycotoxins present in the spores. The endo

metabolites are part of their chemistry which goes on in the hyphae. Both are

potential toxins.

2. Bacteria: both Gram negative and Gram positive. Gram is a type of stain

that differentiates between the two groups. Gram positive have a thick outer

cell wall are stained a dark blue. Gram negative have a thinner outer cell wall

and do not take up the dark blue stain, therefore, called Gram negative. The

Gram negative, upon death of the bacterium, shed lipopolyssachrides (endotoxins)

from their cell walls. Endotoxins cause inflammation of the airways and

systemically. The act synergistically with mycotoxins to increase the toxic

effects of both groups of chemicals.

3. Particles: Fungal and bacteria colonies shed particles. There are in three

size ranges: <one micron; 1-2 microns; >2 microns. The spores generally fit

into the >2 micron fraction. The <one micron fraction is up to 500 times more

concentrated than are the spores. If the is a total spore count of 1,000 then

multiply this number by 500 to get the total particle load via fungi. The 500

number does not include the particles released by the bacteria, e.g. The 500

count only refers to a group of polysaccharides, 1-3.-beta-glucans, that are

found in the cell walls of fungi.

4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

5. Proteins: Fungi and bacteria shed proteins, particularly fungi. The fungi

produce extracellular enzymes to digest the substrate upon which they are

growing. That to say, their stomach and intestines are outside of the body

(humans). Some of the proteins they producer are also toxin. For example,

Stachy, Aspergillus and Penicillium species produce a hemolytic protein and

another group called siderophores. The siderophores make available the iron of

the host, the hemolytic proteins break down red blood cells so that the

siderophores can take up the iron. Iron supplementation will only make the

fungi happier. Fungi do not store iron, but must take it from their host. Thus

these proteins can be both antigenic (cause an immune response) or toxic.

6. Glucans (beta glucans above) and mannans are cell wall polysaccharides

released from the cell walls of fungi.

I hope that this simple enough all of you.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Jeanine,

I read it I think on the website from the orthopedic MD.. or some other place

here.. the list? These are the only places I have gotten info so far.. something

about the mycotoxins can outgas through permeable material..

We will store some items we hope to keep at the contaminated home in plastic

containers.. I dont know how contaminated the home is or isnt?? There are photos

and art etc the kids did when they were little I would like to try to save but

will not be taking with us. Want to protect them as well while they are here and

noticin a lot of the plateic stoage containers do not have well sealed lids..

So wondering if the plastic storage containers are fine and if so which ones

might be better from anyones personal experience.

Jack,

Thank you for the info.. I am trying to read it... I am sorry to say I have no

clue what half of this means.. is there a short for dummies version?

Thank you all!

Robin

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher,

It was simple enough for me to uderstand.  Greatly appreciated !   I tested

positive for gram negative bacteria but no one has identified it.   I do have

inflamation and I do have lung diseases from the contamination.   So I guess I

better go get them identified.   

 

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 2:10:07 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Plastic Containers

 

Robin: I am not sure of what you mean regarding a course for dummies. Are you

referring to the biocontaminants or the chronic illness.

I will try to clarify the biocontaminants:

1. Fungi: Many species of various fungi: Stachybotrys (two chemo types);

Aspergillus, Penicillium, Trichoderma, Epicoccum, Chaetomium, Fusarium, to name

a few. These organisms produce what is referred to as exo and endo metabolites.

The exo metabolites are the mycotoxins present in the spores. The endo

metabolites are part of their chemistry which goes on in the hyphae. Both are

potential toxins.

2. Bacteria: both Gram negative and Gram positive. Gram is a type of stain that

differentiates between the two groups. Gram positive have a thick outer cell

wall are stained a dark blue. Gram negative have a thinner outer cell wall and

do not take up the dark blue stain, therefore, called Gram negative. The Gram

negative, upon death of the bacterium, shed lipopolyssachrides (endotoxins) from

their cell walls. Endotoxins cause inflammation of the airways and systemically.

The act synergistically with mycotoxins to increase the toxic effects of both

groups of chemicals.

3. Particles: Fungal and bacteria colonies shed particles. There are in three

size ranges: <one micron; 1-2 microns; >2 microns. The spores generally fit into

the >2 micron fraction. The <one micron fraction is up to 500 times more

concentrated than are the spores. If the is a total spore count of 1,000 then

multiply this number by 500 to get the total particle load via fungi. The 500

number does not include the particles released by the bacteria, e.g. The 500

count only refers to a group of polysaccharides, 1-3.-beta-glucans, that are

found in the cell walls of fungi.

4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

5. Proteins: Fungi and bacteria shed proteins, particularly fungi. The fungi

produce extracellular enzymes to digest the substrate upon which they are

growing. That to say, their stomach and intestines are outside of the body

(humans). Some of the proteins they producer are also toxin. For example,

Stachy, Aspergillus and Penicillium species produce a hemolytic protein and

another group called siderophores. The siderophores make available the iron of

the host, the hemolytic proteins break down red blood cells so that the

siderophores can take up the iron. Iron supplementation will only make the fungi

happier. Fungi do not store iron, but must take it from their host. Thus these

proteins can be both antigenic (cause an immune response) or toxic.

6. Glucans (beta glucans above) and mannans are cell wall polysaccharides

released from the cell walls of fungi.

I hope that this simple enough all of you.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Jeanine,

I read it I think on the website from the orthopedic MD.. or some other place

here.. the list? These are the only places I have gotten info so far.. something

about the mycotoxins can outgas through permeable material..

We will store some items we hope to keep at the contaminated home in plastic

containers.. I dont know how contaminated the home is or isnt?? There are photos

and art etc the kids did when they were little I would like to try to save but

will not be taking with us. Want to protect them as well while they are here and

noticin a lot of the plateic stoage containers do not have well sealed lids..

So wondering if the plastic storage containers are fine and if so which ones

might be better from anyones personal experience.

Jack,

Thank you for the info.. I am trying to read it... I am sorry to say I have no

clue what half of this means.. is there a short for dummies version?

Thank you all!

Robin

[Guest guest]

Im sorry.. Thank you for responding.. I mean for the myco and endotoxins for the

environment.

Thank you,

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I assume you are asking regarding mycotoxins and endotoxins. They are

available via various laboratories. If you are asking about diagnostic testing

regarding your health problems, then you need to see a physician who specializes

in illness from WDB. Please clarify your question so I can give you an answer.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher.. I can grasp this. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Robin: I am not sure of what you mean regarding a course for dummies. Are

you referring to the biocontaminants or the chronic illness.

>

> I will try to clarify the biocontaminants:

>

> 1. Fungi: Many species of various fungi: Stachybotrys (two chemo types);

Aspergillus, Penicillium, Trichoderma, Epicoccum, Chaetomium, Fusarium, to name

a few. These organisms produce what is referred to as exo and endo metabolites.

The exo metabolites are the mycotoxins present in the spores. The endo

metabolites are part of their chemistry which goes on in the hyphae. Both are

potential toxins.

>

> 2. Bacteria: both Gram negative and Gram positive. Gram is a type of stain

that differentiates between the two groups. Gram positive have a thick outer

cell wall are stained a dark blue. Gram negative have a thinner outer cell wall

and do not take up the dark blue stain, therefore, called Gram negative. The

Gram negative, upon death of the bacterium, shed lipopolyssachrides (endotoxins)

from their cell walls. Endotoxins cause inflammation of the airways and

systemically. The act synergistically with mycotoxins to increase the toxic

effects of both groups of chemicals.

>

> 3. Particles: Fungal and bacteria colonies shed particles. There are in

three size ranges: <one micron; 1-2 microns; >2 microns. The spores generally

fit into the >2 micron fraction. The <one micron fraction is up to 500 times

more concentrated than are the spores. If the is a total spore count of 1,000

then multiply this number by 500 to get the total particle load via fungi. The

500 number does not include the particles released by the bacteria, e.g. The 500

count only refers to a group of polysaccharides, 1-3.-beta-glucans, that are

found in the cell walls of fungi.

>

> 4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

>

> 5. Proteins: Fungi and bacteria shed proteins, particularly fungi. The

fungi produce extracellular enzymes to digest the substrate upon which they are

growing. That to say, their stomach and intestines are outside of the body

(humans). Some of the proteins they producer are also toxin. For example,

Stachy, Aspergillus and Penicillium species produce a hemolytic protein and

another group called siderophores. The siderophores make available the iron of

the host, the hemolytic proteins break down red blood cells so that the

siderophores can take up the iron. Iron supplementation will only make the

fungi happier. Fungi do not store iron, but must take it from their host. Thus

these proteins can be both antigenic (cause an immune response) or toxic.

>

> 6. Glucans (beta glucans above) and mannans are cell wall polysaccharides

released from the cell walls of fungi.

>

> I hope that this simple enough all of you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have not searched the archives, so I didnt get it from an old post. I got it

from a site that someone sent me on a CFS/MOLD recovery board now that I think

about it.. there are several folks who have recovered from extreme CFS, some

very recently, from extreme mold avoidance like we are talking about and some

using CSM and possibly other toxins binders.. still not clear on that, though

clearly CSM was used.. there are other binders that will gently pull bile like

Welchol and betasisterol and others like psyllium and pectins that will at least

bind toxins in the gut so they cannot be re-absorbed.. clay, non-digetable fiber

ike in detoxifiber as well.

A man I recently met in gro store.. same thing.. left home, the few possession

he and family took he had to get rid of becasue they made him sick and he is now

at about 90% by his report. He used CSM, ionic water (have no clue if this

helped... he reported drinking a gallon a day), antifungals, a rife machine.

He did say a doc told him to make a spray of 50% ammonia and 50% water and mist

the air and furniture if any cross contamination should occur.. and use I think

a cup of ammonia in wash before detergent. I dont know and he cant claim it

works but he did it.

Im not sure if there is science to back either claim and would love to know if

the mycotoxins can or cannot out gas and through what?

Our stachy was behind tile but there was a seam of grou that had come undone and

left a gap and a few tiles had fallen off. can spores or mycotoxins pass through

the crack or thin set... I thought stachy spores were pretty tightly bound to

the surface..

Understanding this would help me put the pieces togehter. I still do not know

what is lyme, babesia or mold.

Also could stachy spores have escaped through the thin set where the tiles had

fallen off or the long crack up the edge of the knee wall when we stopped using

the shower and some drying had occured?

Robin

>

> Mayleen, have you tried washing out your sinuses real good and seeing if that

helps?

> sometimes regardless of weither I can tell whats affecting me or not, washing

my sinuses helps, if relief is short lived and you've not been anywhere beside

where you live, you can than know that it is something in your space, plus

washing the sinuses may actually help you than locate the problem.

> I had a dead mouse one time that was causeing me symptoms and I didn't figure

it out until he got further into the decomposeing stage.

> I've had symptoms before because of soaking a dirting pan in the sink and

whatever that caused the water to do, I didn't realize that was what was getting

to me until I got my nose right over it and had more entence reaction.

> sometimes it's things we dont thing about.

>

> ps. I remeber to well, the post about being able to sence gassing off of

mycotoxins through a plastic bag. what you have to understand is that while

reading old posts, you might not be getting very good information. there was

little known than about this illness and some thought they had all the answers

but they didn't.

> while it can be interesting to read , I wouldn't rely alot on very old posts

as a sorce of current information.

>

>

[Guest guest]

RealTime Laboratories, Inc. Dallas. The lab can do both.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Im sorry.. Thank you for responding.. I mean for the myco and endotoxins for

the environment.

Thank you,

Robin

>

> I assume you are asking regarding mycotoxins and endotoxins. They are

available via various laboratories. If you are asking about diagnostic testing

regarding your health problems, then you need to see a physician who specializes

in illness from WDB. Please clarify your question so I can give you an answer.

[Guest guest]

Good: I made it as simple as I could coming from my years of knowledge, that is

often difficult for me to do.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Thank you Dr Thrasher.. I can grasp this. Thanks for taking the time to

explain.

Robin

>

> Robin: I am not sure of what you mean regarding a course for dummies. Are

you referring to the biocontaminants or the chronic illness.

>

> I will try to clarify the biocontaminants:

>

> 1. Fungi: Many species of various fungi: Stachybotrys (two chemo types);

Aspergillus, Penicillium, Trichoderma, Epicoccum, Chaetomium, Fusarium, to name

a few. These organisms produce what is referred to as exo and endo metabolites.

The exo metabolites are the mycotoxins present in the spores. The endo

metabolites are part of their chemistry which goes on in the hyphae. Both are

potential toxins.

>

> 2. Bacteria: both Gram negative and Gram positive. Gram is a type of stain

that differentiates between the two groups. Gram positive have a thick outer

cell wall are stained a dark blue. Gram negative have a thinner outer cell wall

and do not take up the dark blue stain, therefore, called Gram negative. The

Gram negative, upon death of the bacterium, shed lipopolyssachrides (endotoxins)

from their cell walls. Endotoxins cause inflammation of the airways and

systemically. The act synergistically with mycotoxins to increase the toxic

effects of both groups of chemicals.

>

> 3. Particles: Fungal and bacteria colonies shed particles. There are in

three size ranges: <one micron; 1-2 microns; >2 microns. The spores generally

fit into the >2 micron fraction. The <one micron fraction is up to 500 times

more concentrated than are the spores. If the is a total spore count of 1,000

then multiply this number by 500 to get the total particle load via fungi. The

500 number does not include the particles released by the bacteria, e.g. The 500

count only refers to a group of polysaccharides, 1-3.-beta-glucans, that are

found in the cell walls of fungi.

>

> 4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

>

> 5. Proteins: Fungi and bacteria shed proteins, particularly fungi. The fungi

produce extracellular enzymes to digest the substrate upon which they are

growing. That to say, their stomach and intestines are outside of the body

(humans). Some of the proteins they producer are also toxin. For example,

Stachy, Aspergillus and Penicillium species produce a hemolytic protein and

another group called siderophores. The siderophores make available the iron of

the host, the hemolytic proteins break down red blood cells so that the

siderophores can take up the iron. Iron supplementation will only make the fungi

happier. Fungi do not store iron, but must take it from their host. Thus these

proteins can be both antigenic (cause an immune response) or toxic.

>

> 6. Glucans (beta glucans above) and mannans are cell wall polysaccharides

released from the cell walls of fungi.

>

> I hope that this simple enough all of you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Selecting the correct Dr. is the key. If you wish to email me personally, I

have some I can suggest.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Hi and Thank you,

Yes I regularly cleanse my sinuses.  But I cannot find an oder and I know I

have

a very acute sense of smell now.  Fabic softner from other buildings across the

street about 1 block away I can smell. Also I can identify sometimes the

product.

I still believe it is in my environment.   I live in an area that was

devastated

in 2004, 05, 08 by storms.  Many places I believe to be improper remediated. 

I

react to many with respiratory problems  and smell and can tell. But right now

what I am not smelling is making me very ill. 

And I think Dr Thrasher may have given me a clue..............mold by products

is a big possibility due to chronic inflamation I am dealing with.  The other

is

the fact that I was pesticided in May.   I cannot smell anything in here,

except

one room, we do not use and that has a smel I cannnot determine exactly what it

is. Then it disappears. 

 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: osisposis <jeaninem660@...>

Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 1:02:05 PM

Subject: [] Re: Plastic Containers

 

Mayleen, have you tried washing out your sinuses real good and seeing if that

helps?

sometimes regardless of weither I can tell whats affecting me or not, washing my

sinuses helps, if relief is short lived and you've not been anywhere beside

where you live, you can than know that it is something in your space, plus

washing the sinuses may actually help you than locate the problem.

I had a dead mouse one time that was causeing me symptoms and I didn't figure it

out until he got further into the decomposeing stage.

I've had symptoms before because of soaking a dirting pan in the sink and

whatever that caused the water to do, I didn't realize that was what was getting

to me until I got my nose right over it and had more entence reaction.

sometimes it's things we dont thing about.

ps. I remeber to well, the post about being able to sence gassing off of

mycotoxins through a plastic bag. what you have to understand is that while

reading old posts, you might not be getting very good information. there was

little known than about this illness and some thought they had all the answers

but they didn't.

while it can be interesting to read , I wouldn't rely alot on very old posts as

a sorce of current information.

[Guest guest]

mycotoxins do not offgas. but their are other things involved with water

damage that can.

>

> I have not searched the archives, so I didnt get it from an old post. I got

it from a site that someone sent me on a CFS/MOLD recovery board now that I

think about it.. there are several folks who have recovered from extreme CFS,

some very recently, from extreme mold avoidance like we are talking about and

some using CSM and possibly other toxins binders.. still not clear on that,

though clearly CSM was used.. there are other binders that will gently pull bile

like Welchol and betasisterol and others like psyllium and pectins that will at

least bind toxins in the gut so they cannot be re-absorbed.. clay, non-digetable

fiber ike in detoxifiber as well.

(many have done well with the CSM.

>

[Guest guest]

Mayleen, what type of test was done to test for gram negative bacteria, a

culture? Thanks

>

> Thank you Dr Thrasher,

>

> It was simple enough for me to uderstand.  Greatly appreciated !   I tested

> positive for gram negative bacteria but no one has identified it.   I do

have

> inflamation and I do have lung diseases from the contamination.   So I guess

I

> better go get them identified.   

>  

> Mayleen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Thrasher, are MVOC's taken up by a charcoal filter? I know filtration is not

the answer to sickbuilding but just wondering if air goes through carbon filter

will it be absorbed and the amt diminished in room. Thanks

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> 4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

>

[Guest guest]

Most likely until the charcoal becomes loaded and then down loads.

[] Re: Plastic Containers

Dr Thrasher, are MVOC's taken up by a charcoal filter? I know filtration is

not the answer to sickbuilding but just wondering if air goes through carbon

filter will it be absorbed and the amt diminished in room. Thanks

>

> 4. MVOCs " This term refers to the volatile organic compounds produced by

colonies of fungi and bacteria, thus microbial volatile organic compounds. There

are over 200 of these./ They add to the VOCs (volatile organic compounds) that

come from furnishings in the home. Therefore, total VOCs = VOCs + MVOCs. The

MVOCS are irritating and toxic.

>